00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome members of the archeology podcast network to the bonus segment for the cm archeology podcast episode 45 if you haven't heard that episode. Please go back and listen um if you don't want to go back and listen that's fine with you. We're going to talk about our thoughts. On the interview. We just did with christopher dore and Kenneth Atchison ah both None people who work I guess somewhat tangentially to the to the serm industry. What I mean by that is they're not necessarily dirt archaeologists so to speak anymore. They're more on the side of business and preparation and and analysts. Analyzing and statistics and stuff like that and they've put together a paper that they presented at a european conference three months ago and we have that in the show notes the actual like conference presentation. not the not a paper they haven't formalized paper for it yet. Um, but we just had a whole discussion ben. With them about the cerm industry in the U K and the us and the problem of basically careers in crm and the fact that the career as an archaeologist as a cm is not really that desirable to people working in. In this industry and and maybe some reasons around why that is and and what we can do so now that we're now that we're just on our own I'm just curious as to what you guys really think about how that went heather I know you had ah quite a few opinions back towards Chris and Ken where do we where do we stand on this. 01:26.22 Heather Why are you starting with me. Ah, um, yeah, go ahead. Bill go ahead. 01:28.87 archpodnet Um, your warm is yeah, go ahead bill. Yeah. 01:29.78 succinctbill You can I was going to say I can go None if you don't want to go? Yeah I've known ah chrisor for quite a while and um, you know I always thought that his presentations are quite interesting and that he has an interesting take. 01:39.99 archpodnet Like yeah. 01:44.98 Heather A. 01:48.22 succinctbill And um, like what year is it 2022 right now I think probably 2014 or maybe like 2013 or so is the None time I ever really you know heard him give a presentation and at the time I'd already been doing crm for you know 10 years or so. 01:50.68 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 02:06.69 succinctbill And so it was interesting to see someone who was you know doing this from a completely different perspective and in the amount of years that I've been listening to his presentations on the the situation in the industry but like every single bit of it ends up coming to fruition I mean he was talking a long time ago about. The ah you know the contracting system and the way that you know companies were ah getting contracts and not capitalizing their their companies and stuff like that in the wake of the recession and here we are I mean I think that companies that had the ability started to capitalize their situation by just buying smaller companies but they never really bought assets. That was the huge thing that happened to a lot of the people who sold out they went to go sell their companies in 2009 or 2010 or whatever and found out that it hardly had any value because the contracts were gone and they had no real property or any Assets. So. Was interesting to hear that way back then and to see that I don't really know any company that's gotten into the heritage conservation The you know the design the property management purchasing any of that aspect. Even though we know where development's going to happen I don't really see where any companies are necessarily doing that. And the companies that I worked for were my job was the most secure they had landscape ah design and architects. Those were the folks who were really the main you know, ah the main income producers and it was like the the bios and the archeos were just the extra you know. 1 ne-stop shopping addition thing that was added for these large corporate conglomerates that were hiring the services but it was really the architecture the design engineering that was really the part that you know they they were paying the top dollar for and you know my job was most secure at those companies so going to this when I I saw this. 03:40.56 archpodnet Um. 03:43.61 Heather Ah. 03:56.20 succinctbill Think um, Doug Rox Mcqueen put this on our slack channel a while ago I went through the Slideshow and I was like oh yeah, that's very familiar. It's pretty interesting to see that happen after these many years of doing crm and and being the person who's trying to. Get students ready for careers in crm it was like oh yeah, oh I see who the author is it's Chris or that that's why it actually resonates with me and. 04:20.60 Heather I Think a lot of it has to do with um you know what the clients want and what they have to have and I think that's why cultural and biology although biology is just across the board. You know they're able to charge more and pay and sometimes pay more. Um, but. You know we are the necessary Evil Um, when it comes to the client when they have to do the cultural assessments or the cultural mitigation because they have to where landscape. Um, you know architecture and all those developments that are on the side of building. Um. Tasks are so are something that the developer wants and so they're a little bit more interested in paying for them which is you know why? it's difficult to increase um costs because they are just trying to check a box. They're doing what they have to do in order to move forward with what they want to do and. 05:01.48 archpodnet Um. 05:18.70 Heather So It's just they're not looking at Quality. They're looking at what's going to get them by but in this litigious society and with certain stakeholders becoming I mean stakeholders like the public tribes and tribes ah becoming more savvy and more. Legally backed that is somewhat changing. We see that now with you know we actually inherit quite a few projects that other companies have messed up and um and so I think could developers now are realizing that you get what you pay for. So I think is that. As we move into that next world of people realizing that it is important to have quality. Um and to have people that really know what they what they're doing. Um, we're gonna be able to charge more. Um I think another aspect is firms. 06:11.43 archpodnet Yeah. 06:14.70 Heather That just like what? um Bill was saying you know I've worked for companies too where we are just you know the archaeologists or just something that has to happen but um in our company we are. We're actually bringing in work and the more that cultural resources. Ah, practices within companies bring in people with business acumen where they're hiring people with business acumen that are able to bring in clients and bring in revenue. That's what's that's going to start changing. Also our our industry and so. 06:46.95 archpodnet Great. 06:49.44 Heather You know something we've talked about before we we need more people that have a business acumen and aren't just um, you know archaeologists or another option that people have brought up is where we bring business minded people that aren't archeologists to assist in that endeavor. But I don't want that. That's not I'm just trying. 07:03.70 Andrew Kinkella No, no. But yeah. 07:09.33 Heather I'm trying to be fair. That's what bill people have brought it up I don't like that because I'm in a you know there, there's I've seen I've experienced situations where you have people that are leading a cultural practice that aren't archeologists and it makes it difficult. Um, yeah. 07:21.69 Andrew Kinkella Oh yeah, no, we've we've touched on this before and and I would just say you know being part of this this show this time I'm I'm still kind of like. 07:23.21 archpodnet No. 07:27.25 Heather Yes. 07:36.22 Andrew Kinkella I think that especially young people in serum. They need to know like what they're getting into like what exactly they're getting into and I'm not putting that on them I'm putting it on like all of us we. So we why can't we just have a flow chart of like ok if you go into CR m 07:44.65 archpodnet Right. 07:47.94 Heather Yes. 07:51.53 Andrew Kinkella It it can be this and it can be this good skills to have are this this and this you know? Um, oh if you get into it. This is how to get a 4 ah one k this is what overtime is this is what sick time is man I just think we do such a poor you know job of that and so. 07:59.61 Heather Right. 08:09.47 Andrew Kinkella Kind of what Chris said in in the beginning when when you know he said oh that nobody maybe has the desire to be serum like where is the desire. It's like they also don't know we're all. 08:17.58 Heather Right? yep. 08:20.49 Andrew Kinkella A bit ignorant in terms of what the job really is and it can be rewarding and it it is sort of multidisciplinary too. So but we don't We don't set ourselves up for success to use a cliche you know I think I think so many of us would get out of college and then we're like hey I just want to get a gig. 08:30.19 Heather Yeah. 08:37.12 Heather Right. 08:38.23 Andrew Kinkella I Just want to get a gig and say I am I got like I've I've dug some square holes and I I know what I'm doing I have my B a I Just want to get a gig but you never do that next step of like Okay, what does the gig mean how do you move forward. You know and we we got to educate ourselves on on what. 08:46.66 Heather Right. 08:50.18 archpodnet Yeah. 08:55.40 Andrew Kinkella What the job really is in the Grant scheme. 08:56.43 Heather I think I think um, you know our association or annual meetings would be an awesome Why Why don't We have an awesome awesome opportunity to have workshops. Why don't we have workshops where people um where so you know students and people early in their career. Can. 09:02.25 Andrew Kinkella And sure. 09:13.78 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah, yeah, you know I think that would be great although I forget but yeah. 09:14.16 Heather Learn about these things I think that would be in fact I would love you guys. Want to do it. Let's do it. Let's put it in for the next you know, annual meeting. 09:22.96 succinctbill Let's do it I think it's in socall anyway isn't the se the next one is going to be in Southern California right 09:27.41 Heather I think you're right? But I think that would be a really good way just you know, start off with that and then maybe you know Essayas or you know, but se I think would be a a really good first first start. 09:41.42 Andrew Kinkella Definitely SC is I think I think would be great although it's funny in my experience to see our m firms kept that knowledge from me, you know they didn't want me to know my rights? yeah. 09:46.80 succinctbill Um, yeah, you know I think it would be better to talk about like next like the next stage just like Andrew was talking about not how do you get a job because cal does this every year they have this thing about like how do you get a job and. 09:47.87 Heather Well, they still do There are still some that do that. 09:59.15 Andrew Kinkella Right. 10:05.53 succinctbill You know it's really aim towards undergrads then it's great, but you know we've been recording them so we got a couple of them online and and that seems to be kind of the way that these luncheons and workshops go like you know how do you make it the next level like how do you have a family and do crm. Um, how do you. 10:19.24 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, ah yeah. 10:23.20 succinctbill How do you? Ah yeah, you know like how do you make enough money to buy a house. How do you you know ever have vacations you know while while doing Crm Um, and and you know what I really with all my fingers crossed hope is that the Ph Ds that are going to college take these workshops right? because. 10:25.82 Andrew Kinkella Ah, ah. 10:25.95 Heather Many yeah. 10:40.18 Andrew Kinkella Oh man. Yeah. 10:43.35 succinctbill That's the that's like the those are the people who care the most they're the ones who will put up with it because they super want to be archeologists but are just like I mean it's impossible I have found no way to get through to any of them when it comes to talking about like the reality of their career and everything. It's just. 11:01.14 Andrew Kinkella Nope. 11:01.45 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11:01.61 succinctbill Like I haven't found any way the undergrads. Yeah people who are getting their Ma's yep, but when it comes to Ph Ds who are the most dedicated of all, it's it's like borderline impossible to actually contact them to talk to them when they're doing their degree to tell them like these are the skills that you need. 11:04.52 Andrew Kinkella Yeah yep, ah. 11:20.92 succinctbill It's cool that you're doing your dissertation. It's rad The you're ata and that you have a job and they're adjuncting and doing that stuff but like in reality here are the skills that you actually in fact, need to do if you're going to feed a baby with Crm or with archeology and ah just like it's crazy. They don't want to be in the same room with me. They won't look me in the eye. 11:32.56 Andrew Kinkella Haray. 11:37.66 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah, that's because it's the loser path. It's the None class path you know which is just idiotic but that's how they see it. You know they all think they're winners you know and they they won't do the nuts and bolts intelligent. Yeah. 11:37.79 Heather Wow. 11:39.49 succinctbill They won't listen 1 bit. They won't listen 1 bit. 11:42.31 archpodnet Moon or. 11:45.70 Heather And. 11:52.74 archpodnet Well. 11:53.50 succinctbill And well I mean they super are they are I think they are. They're the ones we need the most. But I mean it's like it. You know it's It's like hard. 11:57.46 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but they won't be right sort of yeah. 12:01.89 Heather Ah I think I think there are people in that grouping that we do need. Yes, there are also people in the other groupings that we need I think the Ph Ds Yes, they have unique skill set because they've had that longevity. But. I Don't think I think you're that way. But I don't think everybody in the Ph D program. Some of it is just to continue to go to school because they okay so. 12:28.25 succinctbill But maybe but I all I can say Heather though is someone who's a b a that's doing it for the gig is going to do it and they'll be like yeah, that's all right I'm going to go into nursing someone with a masters who's doing it. They'll be like yeah I don't really see how I'm going to raise a family. 12:30.56 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 12:36.56 Heather Oh sure, Oh sure right. 12:43.95 succinctbill I'm going to go ahead and you know ah leave this do another job you know and and just it was great while it lasted and I'm moving on to the next thing but a Ph D Seriously if they're going to put up with all the stuff that it takes for a Ph D they'll put up with all the stuff that it takes in crm to be a Pi if they think they can get the value out of it because. 12:44.41 archpodnet But. 13:00.65 Heather Um, but. 13:02.22 succinctbill Like right now on all sides they're putting up with all kinds of horror stories in Academia just to be considered a professor and they would get you know with way less stress way less you know strain on their lives they could they could move over to being a crew chief and it would take you know you know they would actually. 13:05.62 Heather Yes. 13:11.94 Heather I Don't know about the waitlist. Trust. 13:20.51 succinctbill None of all, they would be doing archeology which is like I mean I think it's crazy how little we do archeology but they would actually be doing it for real. They'd be getting experience. They'd be getting business skills and like I said I mean they're they're the ones who will go through all of this stuff. So I feel like you know if if they started off. 13:22.10 Heather The dream. Yeah. 13:38.83 succinctbill In their graduate program. You know being honed to go into cultural resources by the time they finish their Ph D if they roll the dice and they're lucky and they you know, get a decent tenure. Not an abusive tenure track thing because that's the other thing like forcing people to work None Teaching loads on contingent. You know three month kind like it's just a horrible situation that people are doing in order to say that they're a professor. Well, you don't have to do any of that Stuff. You're still an archeologist. You're a crew chief. Yeah, you're not running the whole company just because you have a Ph D but like. You know they're the ones I feel like that have the staying power if they actually went into it with the right mindset. 14:16.37 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but that's the key. That's the key like like if they went into a Ph D truly thinking like a I'm going to do this for this for later. My goal is to be in Crm they would be a total badass. You know they they would be so set up but all those guys like it's that culture. You know they. 14:16.47 Heather But they have to go that that that's us. Yeah. 14:17.49 archpodnet And so. 14:28.47 Heather Yes I agree. 14:36.34 Andrew Kinkella CRM is going to seem like this loser thing because they can't talk about their latest social theory forever to death. You know it's like oh I have I've heard people at conferences ah complain about others under their breath and they literally said he's so applied. 14:41.99 Heather Fear or benefit right. 14:53.87 Heather Yeah, you can help. 14:54.85 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, and meaning oh they actually go outside and dig a square hole. It's that culture man and nobody's going to be more bitter than the four Thousand Ph Ds with no job because I got no skills because they don't live in reality. 15:02.74 Heather The at be jump. 15:06.87 succinctbill But that sucks because I work around Ph Ds all time and whenever they open their mouth if it's about their actual job. My brain is just numb because it's not super in I mean seriously I could skim the abstract of your article and pretty much know what's going on in your side your head. So. 15:07.94 Heather Yeah, no well. There's there's these people. 15:15.40 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 15:20.50 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah right. 15:24.52 succinctbill I Don't really want to spend any time doing that but digging some holes finding some cool stuff writing about that now that's the kind of stuff that I'm really interested in I don't really yeah. 15:29.54 Heather Well. 15:30.83 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but see that's you, that's you and that's me you know what? I mean like we're in a small group That's the hard part and like you said at the top like bringing them over to you being like hey guys I'm going to tell you about job and like nobody shows up. It's like okay. 15:38.54 Heather And you. 15:44.88 Heather If if they're not if they're not even willing to look at you in the eye bill. They don't have the correct mindset they have to change something inside of them because you know you know where you make money in serum you make money in serum if you have business acumen and if you have the ability to interface with clients if you do well with clients. 15:49.63 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 15:57.87 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 16:03.77 Heather That's where you make money and I'll say you know I went into graduate degree with thinking. Okay maybe I ah you know I want to be a professor because I love to teach but I knew real real quick. Um, you know I've got to I'm a single mom I got 2 2 babies I got to feed them I got feed him well and Andrew knows where I started and within. 16:21.10 Andrew Kinkella Yep up. 16:22.73 Heather 4 years I am now. Ah I was a pi and I've been that ever since and I make good money and there's no reason why others can't do that. You just have to. 16:28.91 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, and you should be. You should be super proud of yourself that was a long road. My friend like I you know I saw you live that and yeah, you know good for Yale. Um, yes, yes, if you. 16:34.77 archpodnet Um. 16:38.43 Heather But it can happen if you put your mind to it I Just that's what irritates me when I hear people say it can happen. It can't happen. It can happen. 16:43.74 archpodnet Um, okay, okay, okay so I got Tonip in here because what what I'm seeing in this whole discussion and and in in the in the regular episode as well. 16:46.53 Andrew Kinkella I Know it's kills me. 17:01.44 archpodnet Is advancement advancement advancement. You know we're talking about how it can happen like you're saying Heather there's other places to go. There's other things to do, but the the reality is like was mentioned in the podcast I mean the work of archeology is being done by field technicians right. 17:16.30 Heather A portion of the work. Thank you? Okay, yes, because the analysis. 17:16.93 archpodnet I mean the work of archeology is just being done by field technicians and the problem I see well okay, the field work that's being done is largely being done by yeah, the field work that is being done. Um, but there's no, there's no, but there's no analysis to do what the fieldwork wasn't done. There's no. 17:22.66 Andrew Kinkella But yeah. 17:32.57 Heather I understand but analysis we can't say analysis is not. We can't say analysis is not archeology field is just a portion of archeology. Yeah. 17:34.69 archpodnet Report to write up but okay I understand but I'm not saying it's not archeology I'm saying when you look at the yeah when you look at the top down pyramid of any corporation or organizational structure. There's more people at the bottom than there are at the top and those people at the bottom. 17:41.25 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but there's a ton of people in the field though. Yeah Chris yeah yeah. 17:44.24 Heather Right? Yeah yes, yeah. 17:51.38 Heather Sure every business. 17:54.60 archpodnet Boots on the ground archeologists right? So um, that's that's what I'm talking about and my whole point here is we always talk about getting out of that right? I mean we've we've touched on a little bit about you know, having a fulfilling career being a boots on the ground archeologist and just staying that forever if you want to, but there's not enough. 18:10.41 Andrew Kinkella Henna. 18:14.30 archpodnet There's not enough as we talked about in the special episode personal responsibility for people to take charge of their own careers. They're having discussions like this saying when is somebody going to fix this for me. Not what can I do to make this better when is someone going to fix it for me and I I just go back to the the way that my wife and I approached. 18:18.99 Heather Um, right? bright? yep. 18:22.76 Andrew Kinkella Um. 18:32.30 archpodnet Living in hotel rooms and camping and not having a home to go back to for almost two years while we were moving from the East Coast to the west coast to where we wanted to be. We were just shovel bubbing and and literally had no place but we would get into a hotel room. We move things around. We take the art away. We. We put our own stuff in there and we just you know. We make it our home and we don't pine for this thing that doesn't exist. Um, we we had a different mindset around where we were embracing the town that we were in and calling that our home for the time that we were there even if it was for two weeks or two months it didn't matter and as our viewers for the last two plus years now we're doing the same thing but here's the big difference. We belong to the family motor coach association. We belong to a group called the escapees we have a good sam membership There's all these. There's all these organizations that we can belong to that have help and support for people living full time in an rv which is stupid and weird. Why does that exist right. 19:23.55 Heather And. 19:28.76 archpodnet Exists because people wanted it to exist and there's no services like that to tell Field Techs How to live a better life as a field tech nothing. It's why I wrote my book. My book was solely designed towards saying here's how you can improve your circumstances as a field tech by just changing your mindset. 19:29.91 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 19:36.68 Heather What right. 19:43.93 Heather Right. 19:44.33 Andrew Kinkella Right. 19:46.35 archpodnet Over what being a field tech even means and I don't think we're honest about that when we talk to people about getting into this industry. You know we don't tell them hey it's going to be tough you you might not be able to have a family early on unless you're bringing them with you and why not get something like an Rv or ah or van life it for a little while if you can live. Ah if you can live small. 19:51.19 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, if. 20:05.43 archpodnet And and improve your circumstances now which will make you a little bit happier with what you have and you know and at the same time. Let's talk about moving up. You know what? I mean I don't know I Just don't think we have enough talk in that direction. 20:16.78 Andrew Kinkella No, we don't and I would just add that other stuff we talked about earlier like you know also know your sick time and your four a 1 k and your holidays and your overtime you know all that other stuff because that will improve your life right? off the bat. 20:22.99 Heather Right. 20:24.82 archpodnet Exactly Yeah, right right. 20:27.75 Heather And you know I I think you know as far as field goes I think people just because when you're a field technician you're working you know I know those they're long days. You're so tired. The last thing you want to do is go back to the hotel and work some more to prove your station in life. But. 20:38.60 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, yeah. 20:46.33 Heather There you know there's periods in life. We're all in our 40 s fifty s I don't think anybody on here is in their thirty s um, we have all we we've all had portions in our life where you just have to you know you. 20:49.93 archpodnet Ah. 20:51.82 Andrew Kinkella Um, I'm 89 years old heather. 20:55.52 archpodnet Ah. 21:02.52 Heather You have to work hard and buckle down I mean I work hard to buckle down now too. But there's times in your life where you really you know it's not going to be ideal but you're sucking it up so you can move forward but don't suck it up and then just sit and suck and sulk like yeah. 21:17.51 archpodnet Yeah there. 21:18.40 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, it's. 21:20.95 Heather You can say you got to suck and solve don't sulk move forward, Suck it up and you know and and and find a better So ah, better way and when it comes to field work. There's it's not just digging a hole. It's not just doing Surveys There's other aspects of field work That's preparatory. 21:27.30 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 21:34.23 Andrew Kinkella Right. 21:40.67 archpodnet Yeah. 21:40.74 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 21:40.83 Heather To doing the field work that you can make a baby step say. Okay, my next goal is that I'm the one who I want to create the research design or I want to set up. You know the work plan. These are all steps within the field right? that are within the field. Um experience. 21:48.61 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, those are so important. Yeah. 21:55.70 archpodnet Yeah. 21:59.83 Heather That will then move you into management. But I mean we don't talk about these like intermediate steps that need to happen. Yeah. 22:00.87 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah, huge. 22:08.97 archpodnet All right? Well this has been a lively discussion bonus segment and I think we can end it there because quite frankly, my coffee's empty and it's Sunday morning and I want to go get more so I know right? I know it's a. 22:15.12 Andrew Kinkella Um, what? yeah me too since like 10 minutes in totally and yeah, and. 22:18.42 Heather Mine too. 22:19.43 succinctbill So mine's been empty. My friend suck it up. It's not gonna don't complain about it. You heard stop sulking. Ah. 22:25.91 Heather Stop sulking Chris. 22:27.94 archpodnet It's a travesty. Yeah I'm going to go I'm going to go solve my own problem of not having coffee because I don't expect anyone else to do it for me So there we go No I Really do think that we need I mean there's There's a lot of talk right now of. 22:37.65 Andrew Kinkella Ah, yeah. 22:37.72 Heather I. 22:46.54 archpodnet Um, well at least there's been a few few comments on the arche field text group and Facebook about about unionizing, especially since you know Kalin passed on that project. They're like unions would have fixed this problem. It wouldn't have but that's another story but in any way you know everybody thinks that. 22:52.55 Heather Ah. Now. 22:57.41 Andrew Kinkella But yeah. 23:04.53 archpodnet Everybody thinks that if we had a union our lives would be better. You know or the life of a field tech would be better and and maybe it would right? I'm not I'm not down on unions By any mean I think that organizing in some way is always better than not organizing whatever that means. But I but I also think that we do need something like a. 23:15.44 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 23:22.23 archpodnet You know I've I've had various ideas over my life and it it all kind of coalesced when we started rving with something like the family motorcoach association which is more designed towards like older crowds but they have resources related to. You know you live a life on the road here's how you can get health insurance. Um, you know they have offices around the country where you can get mail and they have different services where they'll either store it for you to pick up if you're back periodically they'll ship it to you. They'll scan it all these services for people who don't live in None state and travel around that is field text. 23:36.67 Andrew Kinkella Um, yes. 23:52.67 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 23:53.85 Heather 1 yeah. 23:54.50 archpodnet Why don't we have that and why can't field text just join that they cant no but anybody can join that right. It's not you don't have to be a full-time. Ah, Rver to join the family Marcos association but it would be nice if we had something a little more centric to field text so we could have stuff like you know, understanding your company's. 23:57.76 Andrew Kinkella Ray I mean. 24:01.48 Heather With. 24:11.90 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 24:11.12 archpodnet You know your state's labor laws understanding. You know your company's ah Hr handbook. You know we'll have people review that or something or you know I mean we need something like that for for archeology I mean I don't I don't think so I mean. 24:20.36 Andrew Kinkella There's there's nothing like that out there for serum. Yeah yeah, it might? yeah no I'm asking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 24:22.27 Heather Yeah, where we need to correct correct that then maybe we need to do. 24:30.10 archpodnet Acra tries to be that in some ways but it's more company focused. You know I mean um I don't feel like Ak was person focused enough but and then American cultural resources association. Yeah yeah. 24:35.54 Heather Well, it's not because you can't even American right? and can you even you can't even join us that you can join as a student but you can't join as an individual can you? You have to be ah, a firm which. 24:36.75 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, what does actor stand for again. Ah yeah, okay. 24:48.87 archpodnet I Don't think so I think you have to I think you have to join as a firm and then the people in the firm can be there? Yeah yeah, well, that's what I'm saying it's right? Well, that's what I'm saying it's more company focused and the the only other thing I can see that has a potential to. 24:52.81 Heather Is not helpful right? Well if my firm doesn't want to join that I'm out of luck I just I don't I don't I think that's shortsighted. 24:54.60 succinctbill Yeah, yeah. 25:01.26 Andrew Kinkella Right. 25:07.41 archpodnet Step into that role that something that already exists and has an establishment is rpa. But there's so many problems with rpa. Um, and it's just because they don't have the teeth for anything right? But I think um I think they have the potential only because they do have a pretty substantial membership. They have name recognition. They've been around for a while people know who they are. 25:11.47 Andrew Kinkella Ah, yeah, you leave. 25:11.97 Heather Yeah. 25:21.60 Andrew Kinkella And. 25:26.59 archpodnet They just need to really change what it means to be rpa and they've kind of done that with the new levels that you know anybody can come In. You know, based on certain Criteria Now. You don't have to just have a graduate degree and um, but I think there's still a lot of work to do there right? There's still a lot of work but I don't think starting a new organization would be super Great. Would in some cases if you had the the financial backing to really get it off the ground in a good way and to get it promoted but using something that's already existing and modifying its mission. A little bit would be a lot easier as long as it doesn't have a bad reputation. You know so I don't know all right. 25:55.72 Andrew Kinkella Yes, right? yeah. 25:56.26 Heather Yeah, yeah. 26:04.31 archpodnet Well I think we should call it there. Um, this has been a great discussion and I thank you guys for coming on to the bonus and again. Thank you to all the members who are listening to this. Please let people know that you you heard ah a lively discussion in post about this show I don't know how many seara archeologists are actually members. There's a few. Um, not nearly as member as many as are are nots hereum archeologists for you know for good reason it it costs money to be a member of the the api and I get that but we're also trying to use those finances to put out more podcasts and do more stuff like this and and keep the lights on. So. Anyway, um, again, thank you guys and thanks again to our members and be sure to share this out if you're not on our newsletter for whatever reason go to http://arkpodnet.com scroll up the page a little bit and pop up will up appear. You can put in your email address there. You just get all of our podcasts in an in a newsletter That's the only thing we're doing right now you get that every Friday so. Um, anyway, thanks a lot and we will see you guys in two weeks 27:00.85 Heather Thanks everyone. 27:03.90 succinctbill Thank you.