00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is bill in California Heather in California and Andrew in California Doug over in Scotland. 00:04.53 succinctbill Hello. 00:08.48 Heather Hi everyone. 00:12.12 Andrew Kinkella Um, hey guys how's it going. 00:16.44 Doug So everyone. 00:19.35 archpodnet And I am up in Canada still for the last time on this recording anyway up in bamf national park and I got to say if you've never been up here. It is just eye candy for every single direction that you look at all times it is just the mountains and everything are just so completely epic and I've been in the rockies which is this is like the northern end of them. But. 00:30.84 Heather Um, yeah. 00:38.93 archpodnet Just doesn't seem like it's like this. It's just so amazing. So anyway, we've got a guest today and I'm going to let Heather introduce the guest because it's her topic today and ah somebody that she works with so go ahead. Heather. 00:46.92 Heather Sure? All right? Thank you Chris so I thought um I would bring a colleague on to the show because I think we do a lot of talking or at least in corm not necessarily on this podcast but it does come up occasionally about how. And an MA or a graduate degree is your gateway to becoming a manager in c orum and I think for for the most part that can be true. But I think it's sometimes because we've we've actually it's been like a self-fulfilled prophecy we've made that true. 01:22.43 archpodnet Um, yeah. 01:25.80 Heather Um, we tell people that that's you that's what you need in order to be successful as a manager in Crm and there's so many different traits. Um that make a good manager and make a good project manager and people manager that um have nothing to do with a graduate degree and so. I think that um you know obviously there are some things that you get from a graduate degree that you you don't get from ah a undergraduate. But um I think that what makes somebody a really good manager specifically in Crm. Um there's just as many traits um that you're not going to learn in graduate school and so. Wanted to bring somebody on who's a dear friend but also a colleague who is such an excellent example of somebody who has a a bachelor's and in fact, I've kind of joked around with her saying literally we just got to get you into some program where we can just get those letters behind your name because. She has the experience. She has the knowledge the know how all we need are those letters behind her name but she's so darn busy. It's ah it's difficult to make it happen because she is so successful and so I just I wanted to give um I give some hope to people not that. Ah, graduate degree isn't something that people should want to aspire to but it is not something that can be an obstacle if you don't have it. Um and I think um, honestly I don't know of anyone in the business who's a better example of this than Linda so I thought um I'm going to let Linda. 02:44.96 archpodnet Ah. 02:56.87 Heather Just talk a little bit about her career path. Um and we'll get ah, kind of more into the nitty gritty of it. But maybe ah Linda you just talk about your you know, just your your path from the beginning of archeology to where you are now. 03:12.26 Linda I woof that's a long one Heather but you for the intro. So my name is Linda um I've been doing crn professionally for 16 years um I started as a tech and I got fortunate that I got a position while I was still going to school um and. 03:14.86 Heather Yeah, really. 03:31.71 Linda You know I did all the things that text do you know field work doing record searches. Slf searches all those things and that I realized that I was already hitting that ceiling for someone with a b and then an opportunity came and I just smashed that ceiling through and now I'm doing project management. For l a county san Bernardino county Riverside County um and supporting projects up north and down south and that's all with the b a and I'm also registered archeologist with the rpa. There are just opportunities out there that just happened to show up when I was ready for it and um, yeah. 04:08.80 Heather Yeah I think so I think that um if I remember correctly. Um, you're for you know you've had the gamut of experiences you've had the experience of being attack and hitting that ceiling and being frustrated and not. 04:09.60 Linda Um, very fortunate. 04:27.16 Heather Knowing that you have these capabilities but not being um, seen as having those capabilities and then you've had the experience of being seen that way and being given a chance and what like. You know, kind of getting into the heavy part right? off the bat but I know just maybe talk a little bit about your experience in the beginning. Um, and how that felt you know, Um, how at what point or did you ever think you know what I'm I'm more than this like I can totally do more than this and not just. You know how some people get very um ah they get to jaded and they're like you know I could do that. Guy's job. Better. No No like truly knowing I have this skill set and I know I can do more. 05:12.62 Linda You know to be honest with you I never felt like I knew or was confident enough to say like I know this and I can do more. It was always like give me something and I will get it done if I have to learn this on my own time I will do it in the beginning I faced a lot of Diversity. Um. From people who knew that I was coming in without any field school experience and that was Fine. Um I did it the hard way and then I was fortunate enough along the way to meet um mentors throughout my career whether they were just um, solely field Archaeologists or archaeologists without a degree. Um, Senior Archeologists Ph Ds Mas I always tapped into those resources. Whatever they were good at I would ask them How can it be better at this and they'd spend some time and show me how to do it and all of those things that I've learned along the way have helped shape who I am now and in the sense that you know. More empathetic to people who come in who don't necessarily have a master's degree. Um, because I can relate and I show them the ways that I've learned how to be a successful um archeologist in whatever aspect they're at in their career at that time and um, you know. It It takes time because not every choice that I made along the way was the right choice but I learned from it. The reason I am where I am right now is all the mistakes I made along the way failure helps you to Improve. Um your career. Um, So yeah I mean. There were people who are degreeious meaning you know they wouldn't give me work because all I had was a B not trying to find a solution. For example, you can't be on the report because you only have a B a Well I'll draft the report put my name on the report and put your name as a reviewer that's one way to bypass it and that's what I do. 06:51.74 Heather Yeah. 07:07.00 Linda May not have the the degree that you need to be you know recognized by the secretary of interior standards. But I have found ways to get by and all of these things I don't think people think about you when they're hiring people and they only look at the the degree. 07:22.80 Heather Yeah, it's actually a fallacy. Um, you know I think it's just either. It's ignorance where people think you have to have that m a um on every report um or that you have to have them as like a primary author. Whatever but I think a lot of times it is people just. 07:23.90 Linda The Masters The Ph d. 07:42.18 Heather You know, um, not being supportive of of helping others um and acknowledging others work and it is a degreeious type of attitude. Um, you know in the company that we work at we put everybody that contributes significantly to the report goes on that report. Um, there are there are companies that just put one person and that person could be their Ma and they may not have written almost 90% of the work right? 90% of the report but their name goes on there and you know it's not ah, personally. You know it might be a stylistic thing but our team we don't we. Don't do that when everybody's name goes on the report and if you contribute and it allows people to to you know it gives them that confidence. Um and it also you know, allows them to build up their their resume and the more that they are on reports. 08:22.86 archpodnet Can. 08:37.84 Heather The more respected they're going to be um, but this idea that you the only author that you can have on a report has to have an a is actually not true. There are some things like permits and things like that that that require the M a but not reports across the board at all. 08:53.48 Linda I mean I've I've had reports where um I've drafted the report and the senior reviewer with a masters or Ph D would take my name off the report because I only had a B a. 08:53.89 archpodnet Let me. 09:01.70 Heather Yeah, I'm so wrong. 09:07.15 archpodnet You know, let me I mean there that is all I mean valid right? Yeah for sure. But let me ask you a question from just like a career standpoint I mean having your name on a report and being able to do things like that. Yes, you're right. 09:11.66 Heather Breath. 09:24.80 archpodnet I mean there's there's a lot of things we we should be putting whoever contributed to the report you know on the report there shouldn't be any restrictions around that it it shouldn't be a thing but my question in the end is I mean you've been doing this for 16 years what are your career goals such that you might be looking for your name to be on reports to get credit for those kinds of things that you're doing would that actually help. 09:43.98 Linda Yeah, well when we um when we scope for a project. 1 of the things they look for is a company that has staff that has a resume that has experience working with that specific agency. So if you'd never had your name on a report. 09:44.14 archpodnet Your career. You know what I mean would that would that get you to where you want to be I mean. 10:03.27 Linda There's nothing to back up The fact that you've worked for this specific agency doing all these reports for those many years. So even if at ah at a smaller scale say. For example, you contributed to a report that and you can put on your resume and add that to the proposal and then when we complete our projects we add our resumes or attach our resumes. 10:06.69 Heather By. 10:22.56 Linda To show that the people reading the reports will know like okay so these are the people that worked with it and they can see a track record of how many reports I've worked in La County throughout my career so they're substantiating my position. Um as the lead for that. Um project. 10:37.60 Heather Um, yeah I think okay. 10:39.47 archpodnet It's interesting that real quick. It's it to fall upon that. It's really interesting that the this the places you guys are submitting these 2 are like actually looking at reports and whose names are on them and you know because I I've submitted for projects too and. You know, like Blm projects in Nevada and even California and and forest service projects and things like that you always have to include the resumes of the people that you're going to have working on there. But also I've literally never had anybody say oh you know. It doesn't say what what function this person held on the project right? If you say you contributed to the project. Maybe you were a field crew chief maybe you were a field director something like that. You know your degree is right on the front so they know what degree you have but it it seems like it's never really been a factor even even in bl m permitting in Nevada you know where where that really. 11:17.22 Heather Oh. 11:26.85 archpodnet The rubber hits the road right? there you need to have the right credentials and the right work experience in certain areas to be on or get a blm um permit as a company or even as a person and even then it doesn't seem to really matter what your function was somewhere just that you worked somewhere and you have the experience in that area. 11:44.48 Heather Yeah, yeah, yet there are some agencies that absolutely I mean I We just ran into there's one am I gonna say who it is but just had a recent experience where they were they wanted they specifically wanted to know who was um, actually authoring. 11:45.64 archpodnet You know what? I mean so it's really interesting to me the agencies you guys are talking about. 11:52.78 archpodnet Sure. 12:03.27 archpodnet Um. 12:04.48 Heather Reports who was not just in the field and you know we all know I mean just like anything in in any business. You know you hand in a resume Very few people actually really check up on it. But um, but for the times that they do and then there are some rest some some agencies that do look for. Um, especially if were so when you're putting in a proposal you're putting in proposals with project managers and project leads and so that's usually where they're looking to see what that person's experiences commensurate with what what we are So the position we are proposing that they have in that project. So. 12:29.70 archpodnet Yeah. 12:43.10 Heather Um, you know it's It's difficult to say somebody was a project lead when they're not even on the report and if that report is let's say we list a project and a lot of times when you're proposing you're listing projects within that agency. 12:44.40 archpodnet Yeah. 12:58.17 Heather That you've done for that agency and they look and they don't even see the person's name on there but yet we're saying that they're capable of being a project lead. Um, that be people do look at it um specifically agencies that have their own like dedicated archeologist. They those things. 13:13.76 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 13:17.75 Heather So but I you're right I mean a lot of times you could get nobody's going to even look at it. They don't even look at the resumes but there are times that they do. 13:21.44 archpodnet Sure, Well yeah, and I and I guess there could be other ramifications too and it's It's probably beneficial that you work for you know a larger company versus a smaller one because at a smaller one if they're. 13:34.64 Heather You know. 13:38.86 archpodnet Trying to go for certain projects where they need a certain number of you know graduate degrees on staff you know to be able to justify you know whatever the agency's requirements. Are you you may be out of a job if they have to you know, even though you're really good or whatever the case may be. If they need somebody else at that level at that salary level that has a graduate degree just so they can win other projects. Well their their hands are kind of tied. You know what I mean but at a larger company somebody without a graduate degree can probably succeed you know like you have Linda and um and continue on and just. 14:02.60 Heather Um, yeah, um. 14:09.47 Heather Um. 14:14.13 archpodnet You know, continue to do great work and and continue to improve and yet ah not necessarily need that graduate degree for that reason Anyway, for for keeping your job. 14:21.84 Heather I Think it's it's demoralizing too I think that people get frustrated um in in this business when they're not acknowledged and I think that's a lot of the reason why people leave because they are looked at Lowly because they have some. 14:25.35 archpodnet Sure. 14:32.50 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 14:39.85 Heather But I mean some people look at it that way. Obviously I don't nobody on this podcast does but there are people that treat people that way. Um, when they don't have a graduate degree and hey to be fair. There are people with bachelors that treat people with M a's badly too because. 14:43.35 archpodnet Right. 14:56.10 Heather They have this assumption that you know they're they're just book knowledge and and don't have the field experience or whatever but it goes both ways. But um, you know I think it is demoralizing where you're not getting um, acknowledged and I think just for that reason alone. Forget the agency thing. 14:59.30 archpodnet Oh it goes both ways. Yeah, but. 15:14.14 Heather For that reason. Ah alone in order to encourage people to continue to grow and continue to pursue other aspects of archeology and not just field. Um you you have to start making those moves as a company doug. 15:28.71 archpodnet Right? All right? You know what? I think let's go ahead and take a break because I think Doug and bill are going to open this up a little bit and and they're just we're not going to have a chance to respond so I'd rather just open up with you guys on the other side and then we will have a chance to continue that discussion. Let's do that and we'll see you guys back in a minute.