00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 246 of the serum archeology podcast and we are talking with Linda who works with Heather and we're talking about. You know how you can be successful without a graduate degree but then also some of the. Um, some of what what a graduate degree does get you and and how at some point in your career you might have to get None just for you know, certain things to kind of kick in as we were nearing the end of that last discussion ah Bill and Doug's hands went up virtually on our side and they had some things to say. Doug is on the top of my list here. So I'm gonna let him go first doug why don't you ah hit us with your comment. 00:37.11 Doug Yeah, it was ah it was to comment on what heather said um and just to say we have some data to back it up the whole idea that um, a lot of people you know, leave the profession because of a sort of lack of respect. Um. 00:52.75 archpodnet Ah. 00:55.80 Doug And we did that with profile in the profession. We ah surveyed former archaeologists. Um, it's not the most the largest of sample sizes but it's pretty good and you know most people would think that the number None reason is um money and it's. I think money money is one of it but people are allowed to choose multiple reasons and usually it's something else and usually actually you could probably sum it up as like I don't get paid enough for this stuff. Um, but it's the stuff that really drives people out. Um, and I think there is maybe. Couple of months back by a couple of months maybe a year ago I think this blew up on one of the Facebook groups for text as well is like you know why did people leave um and a lot of it is like just a range of different things. But um, a lot of it. Ah, good. Portion is sort of like respect. Um, and so there's some good data out there on Heather I also just like to add a comment of like um, you know some people also don't just look down on like not having a degree but also like the type of degree you have like the the amount of snobbery you get for like. 02:02.84 archpodnet And. 02:07.63 Doug Oh they have a degree. Yeah they they they got their degree from oh I'm sure Andrew probably gets it a lot as well for like his students like where he's he's probably heard some horror horror stories of like snobbery of like oh they got a degree from. 02:07.87 Heather Amen. Yeah. 02:13.19 succinctbill For. 02:19.47 Heather Are they are. 02:23.74 Andrew Kinkella Ah, it's constant. But but ah it we crush them with our skill set. You know what I mean like over over the years what's been nice is is I think I've gotten a little notoriety in a positive manner for once in terms of. 02:24.58 Doug Yeah, a community college. 02:30.34 Heather Um, yes, yeah. 02:39.88 Heather So. 02:42.50 Andrew Kinkella Our ah our department doing very very well because I have like an arm a literal army of ex students who basically are making the crm firms in Southern California tick you know, but. 02:52.29 Heather Or what. 02:55.43 Andrew Kinkella Your point is very well taken doug that yeah, it's just constant and I have a million stories about like hilariously look down upon because I'm at a 2 year school 03:03.36 Doug I I just have a sort of end with a quick question to Linda I mean how have you have you run into a bit of that and how have you sort of dealt with it in your career. 03:03.49 archpodnet Let. 03:13.30 Linda Run up into what I'm sorry. 03:16.31 Doug You have you have you sort of dealt with run into that sort of snobbery of you know, only having a B a and and what have you sort of how have you dealt with that in your career If you've run into it at all. 03:30.90 Linda I've I've encountered um many instances where someone finds out that I'm leading a large scale survey that I only have a B a and they have a masters and they do kind of shady things you know they'll leave me stranded by myself in the desert or they'll throw me under the bus because. I'm doing better at what they're supposed to do with their masters and I'm like that's Fine. My work will prove my capabilities and you know and to go back to the Um community College I went to Community College I did it because it was the most practical thing for me at that time to finance my education. 03:51.15 succinctbill What. 03:59.76 archpodnet I mean. 04:06.80 Linda And then I um transferred to Ucla So having you know that community college experience was very helpful in shaping shaping me and learning. You know you don't necessarily need to go to a straight for your university to have credibility. You can come for much less and do much more than most. 04:09.32 Heather So Phil that. 04:20.51 Heather Yeah, yeah, I would say one one good word for Linda and for and I think a lot of times for people that go to community college I I went to community college first too and that is scrappy. And when people have grit and they're scrappy. They're going to be more successful in just about anything that they that they um you know, go after but specifically in archeology because it does require so much from you? um that you don't even there's just no way that they could even you know prepare you for. Um, in school and you have to be able to you know, take what's coming at you and and deal with it and Linda is um, you know, really a prime example of that I think there's other skill sets I want to talk ah a little bit about What are those skill sets that somebody who has a b a would make them ah successful in c or m without an m a so I have an idea but at none I'd like to see what Linda says before I put my ยข2 in. 05:27.79 Linda Communication being able to communicate communicate effectively being honest and saying ah can you help me because I don't know this and then relying going after people that you can see are really good at what they do and not judging them based on. Oh you know this person's um. 05:34.89 Heather Um. 05:46.51 Linda Doesn't have a degree because I've worked with people that didn't have a degree in archeology but were amazing field archaeologists and just tapping into those resources and going you know, um, understanding that just because you have a masters or a Ph D doesn't necessarily mean you're capable. You're more capable than someone that doesn't have a degree or has a lesser degree. 05:50.92 archpodnet Yeah. 05:52.60 Heather We're down or. 06:04.11 Heather Yeah, exactly I think um and a few other things that you know that that you just can't teach in college and nobody's going to in a graduate you know graduate program these are like personal skill sets that you you either have it or you don't. And if you don't have it. You have to be able to build those things or know that you need them and that is you know first of all being good to work with being fun making Linda is amazing at making the field fun for people. Um and not looking at how what happens out in the field. And during a project how that um makes her look but constantly looking at what can she do to help elevates the people that are working with her what at the end of the project where is everybody at. When they started with you as a manager when they started with you in the beginning of the project I mean I think a good manager looks at a project and looks at the different tasks that need to happen and and looks at opportunities to grow each person that's on their staff at that time and Linda is is very good at that and I think um, that. Not only um, encourages inspires loyalty um and makes people just want to work harder and and they they are on this one track towards a common goal but they actually you know they've they have this confidence. They've. Feel that somebody is bought into them and I think that that is something you can't teach in school and that to me that if somebody has that that um quality it's going to make them a you know successful manager with or without a graduate degree. 07:49.20 Linda Um I have story that can go back to that back when I started in 2006 um I joined one of the large scale surveys for solar project and I was part of a 16 team um survey group and ah at that time we were serving across the landscape. 07:49.31 archpodnet Um, you know I think. 08:09.13 Linda And I think the field director was trying to figure out who to make the leads for each um team that they would split up into four and you know one of the the task that I was given was to be the the camera person take the notes on the photo log take the photos and then go back to my line I was like great. 08:24.88 archpodnet Ah. 08:27.94 Linda I'm gonna master this I'm gonna be the best the the damn best photographer in this team and I'm gonna make sure we're gonna finish this strong so you know well when someone calls out I found something everyone stops the line they're like photographer I mark my line and I run over and I do it quick and I run back? Um, and I think. Doing that for a couple weeks really caught the eye of the field director who I didn't realize was a field director at the time and then we broke into groups of 4 and I got put in a team with um archeologists that were seasoned archeologists and then I got pulled to the side and this man's talking to me saying. 09:01.53 Heather None 09:03.32 Linda You know we had an idea to put this person in charge because she has a master's and I know you only had your b a but I think you're more capable than she is so I'm going to make you a crew chief are you up for it man my heart jumped I said what? what is this new task that I've never done before how can I be better than a person with an ma I took it. And after that for maybe 3 years my team any team member you gave me our team was known as team kickass because I wanted to be so good at this new task that was given to me I timed how long it took us to get to point a to point b so I can figure out when to give time time breaks how much water everyone should take um. Timed so I knew how long it would take us to finish how many transects and then I knew how many sites we would record by the end of the day and doing that ahead of time really set myself and my team up for success and that all led to just None person giving me that opportunity over someone with a masters. 10:00.26 archpodnet You know that is that is such a I almost I almost want to say um a common story that we hear on this podcast right? like that you you always hear that and and we should always know this we should all know this as a field by now that the the degree in the letters behind your name. Don't necessarily determine what type of person or leader or archeologist or worker or whatever task you're given what type of thing you're going to be I mean that's largely determined by the person themselves and their willingness to learn and improve and do new things because archeology. Is literally not rocket science right? You might have to go to so to college to actually learn rocket science or to be a medical doctor or something like that because you know cadavers are hard to find so you know you got to go to college where they have them in in in great supply but archeology you can learn it by. Go into the library you can learn it by doing the work. You can learn it by asking questions. You can learn it by reading you can learn it by doing all these things and I think the None thing that a graduate degree might give somebody that you may be difficult to come by on your own, especially if you're working full-time. Ah, you know with a company and you're doing. You know you're constantly doing field work and things like that is you might might might get a little bit more understanding or a different way of thinking about archeological theory and the and the way all this kind of comes together right? That's kind of what. Ah, graduate degree might give you but again, it's not something that can't be learned and I think if somebody works in this field long enough like you have Linda that that can also be just I mean if you don't learn that just just by being there then you're not paying attention right? Like if you don't learn that just by. Attrition just by simply existing in this field for long enough even if somebody was just a you know ah a shovel test digging field tech for the last twenty years you're still going to learn a lot of things about how all this comes together just by you know, listening to conversations and participating in that stuff so that that longevity and time in the field. Ah, will give you that the same thing that I think you could get from a graduate degree as far as knowledge and understanding goes. So I don't know it's ah it's weird in this field that we're even still having this conversation and and I know that you need to have a graduate degree in some cases to do certain things just from a legality standpoint. Um, and sometimes from a credibility standpoint unfortunately, but as far as a aptitude in the field standpoint that really is down to the person and their willingness to to just be better. You know what? I mean heather. 12:28.53 Heather Yeah I totally agree I'm I think that you know the the 1 thing that kind of hurts us I think in this field is that this idea that um, an archeologist has to be good at every single thing and you know there you we can have like amazing project managers. Great people in the field and. 12:40.77 archpodnet Bread. 12:47.62 Heather You know what? there's people that are really good at theory and they're the ones that let's say create Background Contexts They are the ones that maybe um, you know inform research designs and more complex research designs. But to think that everybody has to be good at that I mean there's people with Ph D that are not good at that. So. You know this this concept that um, you have to have all the um every single trick in the bag of tricks in order to be successful in Crm is really shortsighted and I think it it it hurts our our profession. 13:13.22 archpodnet Ah. 13:23.00 Heather And um, and it is in a way. It's it's a gateway I mean it's something that people use to keep others from being able to move forward and um I do think that you know with that said, you know Linda and I at talk it is a graduate degree is something that she wants. The thing is is that it's It's so difficult to do when you're super when you're successful. You're busy and when you're busy, it's hard to to um you know to to do that. It's hard to go to graduate school right? Um, and yeah I think that's the end of my ah. 13:45.77 archpodnet Ah. 13:56.73 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 13:57.67 Linda Um, I mean I was offered an opportunity to get my master's when I was at my previous company and 1 of the things that was shared with me is you need your masters if you want to move up in the company and get more money and I was like you know I don't know if that's true. 14:02.60 Heather I. 14:14.35 Linda Ah, because I had 3 colleagues that were told the same thing and they all went and got their masters and when they completed it. They stayed in the same position and it got to the point where they were so just upset at the fact that they just spent 2 years committed to getting those masters and coming back hoping to get a position that was commisesrate with their. 14:19.97 Heather Um, and then. 14:33.33 Linda New new degree and didn't get it stayed at the same pay if anything they got 1% raise and then ended up leaving and I just didn't want that to be my history I didn't want to commit all this money all this time and being stressed out about the you know I'd be working full time still and then having this degree that. 14:40.19 archpodnet Yeah. 14:51.75 Linda Got me Nora within the company. 14:52.26 archpodnet You have to look at the ah roi of it because the master's degree is going to cost you a minimum of $30000 depending on where you go it might cost less just just depending but that $30000 if you get a you know None 3 4 % raise even on the high end. Because you now have a new position and then factoring in progressive raises for the next ten to fifteen years assuming you even stayed at the same company which is statistically unlikely then how long would it take you to even pay back that degree you know by by that time has it been worth it. You know was it worth it to. You know basically have status quo and have all the student loans and and that to pay back just to have your name on a bunch of reports but you're still kind of doing the same job I don't know I don't know if there's an roi there doug. 15:35.30 Doug So I'm just going to ah throw it out there. Uk master's degree only 1 year if if you're only looking for letters again, you're going to get that snobbery of its it's a 1 year or whatever. But um, you pay out. Well okay. Couple of years ago is like turned it box. It's probably like four hundred bucks now you pay um a service to ah validate it for the us um, and it counts for your secretary of interior. Um, and you know you can do a 1 ne-year masters and. The dollar to pound is really good right now. So you're you're not going to be spending None and there are some online masters from a couple of universities. So um I think you can get that number down. Um I yeah um. 16:16.30 archpodnet Ah. 16:21.22 Heather Um I agree yeah you can here even staying in. Yeah. 16:21.23 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, totally yeah, that's I had that's what I was going to say you know with like state like state a state school masters I don't think it'd be 30 grand. 16:34.83 Doug Yeah, but the thing I would the only thing I'd throw out there is just less time like if you're thinking of like 2 years of your life or you know if you're doing it part time 4 years Four To Six because it's 2 to 3 Um. 16:35.00 Heather Um, I actually don't even yeah, go ahead. 16:54.68 Doug Yeah, like ah I'd say and it's not necessarily the yeah. Okay, so in a sense like money is just ah, an abstraction of time of your time doing a certain task so in a sense you might be actually making a lot of money that you wouldn't actually see in your bank account by just spending less time doing it. Um. Because again I would have to say ah you know you're then you're probably learning so much more on your own than what you would might learn in a program. Um that it would. You'd be wasting your time to do certain things. That's that's possibly ah, an outcome. Um I don't know but I'll let other people jump in now and so sell that ah state school California master system which I know very little about so um, I'll listen to Andrew and Heather and. 17:42.27 Heather Um, who do you think. 17:47.94 archpodnet Well I think I think Bill's had a comment for a while I don't know who wants to jump in next. 17:51.46 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, bill could go None It's fun. 17:52.96 succinctbill And now I'll go after the break. It's all right? We're getting close to the break time. 17:55.58 Heather Okay, well I'll do I'll just say from from from personal experience I went to graduate school I didn't pay a penny for it. It was through scholarships. Um I just I was single mom and. 18:02.30 archpodnet There you go. 18:10.51 Heather Some of it was you know because I didn't have a whole lot of money so there was an option there which actually is kind of a trait that many archeologists are going to have anyway. So that work that in your favor if you don't have money. Um, you can take advantage of both merit. 18:14.44 archpodnet Um. 18:27.21 Heather Scholarships would also need scholarships and between the None and um, you know I was working full time and but I made it happen I was a single mom. Um, it was a hard couple years but I'm so glad I did it Um, and you know, yeah, it certainly you. Even if you're paying money for it. I think you you could let's say you didn't get any scholarship I think you could pull off a masters if you're working and there's no reason why you can't work I'm maybe full time. Maybe not for some but you can work and and do a master's program. There's so many especially in California so many master's programs that allow you to just do. Ah, classes at night. Um, and you know get smart about it. Do a project that you're working on talk to your company see if you can you know do both have your your research also be something you're working on for for your job and ah you know get get the most out of. 19:06.67 archpodnet Ah. Um. 19:14.17 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 19:25.14 Heather Out of all your efforts. 19:27.30 Andrew Kinkella Yep I've seen people do exactly what Heather is talking about and and worst case in you know the California state system I believe ah per year it's going to be somewhere around 8 grand you know for for tuition. Um. 19:36.80 Heather Um, yeah. 19:38.15 archpodnet Okay. 19:41.40 Andrew Kinkella So that's that's worst case but I had a similar story to Heather I think I probably only paid a total of like 4 or 5 grand total because like I had some scholarships and stuff that went with it so you know your mileage may vary but my point is it's not yeah yeah, 30 grand sounds ah too high to me. 19:47.82 archpodnet The. 19:56.55 archpodnet Right? right? All right? So we're going to take it to break. But I would say you know if you are working for a a larger company see if they have some sort of tuition assistance or something like that sometimes they do and sometimes they will pay you to go to grad school and and that's actually. Ah, really good situation obviously because you can be guaranteed a job when you get back pretty much because they're not going to pay for you to go to school and then give your job to somebody else so because that's always the fear and you know, Ah, we'll find out on the other side of the break. But I know some programs you know obviously. 20:15.73 Heather Um, right? Um, exactly. 20:29.37 archpodnet A lot of schools these days hand out laptops to their students and things like that so that could be a benefit. My only knowledge of community college comes from the show community. So we'll find it on the other side of the break if um, Andrew's school gives you a paintball gun or if you have to buy your own. We'll find out that on the other side of the break 2 paper guns back in a minute. 20:39.70 Andrew Kinkella 2 paintll guns. Okay, 2 paint poll guns right.