00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the sira mark podcast episode 2 46 and bill I'm interested to hear your opinion because we haven't heard from you in much this episode we keep running over you. So let's have it. That's right. 00:06.69 succinctbill Yeah, no, it's great. Everybody else has that like a hive mind all the questions I would ask others are asking going back to the question about graduate school though I mean the thing that you get when you go for a masters is. 00:17.25 archpodnet Nice. 00:24.98 succinctbill Actually trying to think about archeology rather than you know 50% of your time on hogwash classes that you'll never actually use in archeology and I mean a few years ago I wrote a blog post where I calculated how useful the classes that I took through all my years were and. 00:41.96 archpodnet And. 00:44.50 succinctbill At the undergrad level. Ah maybe like maybe 30% of the classes I took as an undergrad I learned a lot and ah you know ever were applied in my career as an archeologist. But when you look at the table that shifts over to graduate school a lot of those I learned a lot and um. 00:50.48 archpodnet Yeah. 01:03.50 succinctbill You know they were really relevant and applicable to my career in cultural resources and so ah, that's what you actually get you. You shave off that two years of just getting a well-rounded whatever and then you only focus on the other stuff and then you know you you actually kind of your your entire. Course structure changes if you go to a functional university where you know you're forced to actually think and talk and debate and consider things rather than just you know learning about this then putting it on a Scan Tron sheet or you know short answer gibberish paragraph about you know what? you learned about this and that I mean. 01:25.92 archpodnet E. 01:38.90 succinctbill If you go somewhere you have a great instructor or any instructor that's worth their salt. You're going to be actually trying to mimic what you'll do for your thesis mimic what you'll do for your dissertation so you'll be writing actually decent stuff and you know the best classes in graduate school are the ones where your assignments are essentially to write grant proposals which is. A baby you know simulator of trying to write a proposal anyway or at least a research design so that's that's really the benefit that you get out of a graduate program and like the cost benefit analysis I don't I don't have all the statistics Doug's the the person who knows all that stuff. But we're at this place where it's not just archeology. All these other industries are looking for people who have graduate degrees and college degrees and it's really hard to get into. You know most things because all the people who are the hiring managers. They all have an Mba. They all have an Mfa like they all have different. Um you know masters and graduate degrees. 02:21.88 archpodnet Yeah. 02:34.86 succinctbill And so they seriously do you know?? Ah the the glass ceiling exists in pretty much every industry and they do discriminate against people who don't have those higher degrees and so archeology is really bad because there's not very many of us those degrees can really turn into a serious bottleneck. And ah, you know something that keeps your career from moving forward because all the people above absolutely discriminate against people who have you know don't have a degree but it's it's widespread and so I don't really know the way around it. Functionally we don't actually need a graduate degree to Manage. Um, ah you know best buyer. Whatever. 02:57.96 archpodnet Um. 03:08.50 archpodnet Sure. 03:10.20 succinctbill But it's getting to the point where that's that's just the reality of the United States and 03:13.45 archpodnet Okay, heather. 03:14.86 Heather Yeah I I I agree I agree as far as I hope that I haven't been in school for a while but I hope that we're not diluting the graduate degree. Um I'm sure that in some ways we are just by the fact that we're making it like you said we're almost. You know the the master's degree in some cases is is um, the new bachelor's right? But there you know I think this isn't ah this podcast isn't about you know, saying that a master's degree is not valuable it certainly is valuable I mean there are things that winning. In ah your undergraduate that you're really just learning the information synthesizing the information spitting it back out. Um, but like Bill was saying when you go to graduate school. you're really, you're really um marinating in it. You are. Learning how to come up with your own thought not just you know, ingest the information and spit it back out so that you can show that you remember it but that you are actually creating new thought and you're able to analyze and I do think that is something that can be learned I mean that's something Linda has learned over time. Um. I I do think it would be fun just to see Linda you know, go into graduate school and be able to do that in the environment of an academic um research rather than just from the regulatory side. So the None the None thing. 04:43.11 archpodnet No. 04:45.91 Heather That um you know Linda is is very good at is that she has a regulatory mind and so she can take the the regulatory um requirements and she can look at a project and see where they apply and how they apply and. 04:49.68 archpodnet Um. 05:02.66 Heather What really does apply and what doesn't and that in and of itself is is graduate level work. It really is um, it would be fun though to for her to had that opportunity to do that from an archeological perspective. Um, but it is so certainly something a skill that you can learn um, over. Time and experience in Crm um, you know, but it is something that that needs to happen and it might be a little more difficult to do without a graduate degree Linda accomplished it. But it's that's up for everyone. 05:33.86 archpodnet Right? right? Andrew. 05:37.60 Andrew Kinkella So Linda Linda this I I didn't want to tell you this but this is an intervention. This is an intervention to get you to do an m a and ah the reason why I say that is. 05:38.49 Linda Um, yes. 05:52.38 Andrew Kinkella Because you you have all those skills. That's so funny just listening to you and listening to your story. You have so many of the tough skills. What I call like the black arts. You know that with that nobody necessarily teaches you that you have to learn just by living it. Um. And I do worry that in years to come. You will feel more and more of that glass ceiling. Um, but and why not you know, sort of think seriously about getting a masters locally or something like that or focusing on that because you have so much going for you. You could like we said earlier, you could. Use 1 of your project as your master's thesis and then you would you would literally have it all. You know? So I wonder what's your take on that or how do you feel about that. 06:34.12 Linda You know, um I was fortunate enough to get the opportunities to learn on the job. All the things that you would learn in the master's program I learned throughout my career and I even got on the rpa just with a B a because I had the skill set. 06:50.44 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 06:52.50 Linda That would misrate with someone with a you know? Master's degree or Ph D Um, and you know I didn't pursue a master's before because I was getting work I was never like ah there was never a period where I didn't have work and I was getting raises steady raises and you know people were reaching out to me for position. 06:55.36 archpodnet Yeah. 07:11.28 Linda And I felt if I can do this work without having to go get a masters then I'll continue. But if at any point I feel like this this the ceiling is not gonna break This is it for me then I would consider it Fortunately for me I'm in a position now where I can financially support myself. 07:20.97 Andrew Kinkella None. 07:29.95 Linda Working full time and pursuing a master's and that's why that's something that I am seriously considering now I just need the letters I don't necessarily care about where I'm going to get it because I already have a position where I'm leading projects. You know. 07:34.45 Andrew Kinkella Yet. 07:41.90 Andrew Kinkella Of course of course and that that's sort of what I would even recommend you know, just do something locally again like Heather and I were talking earlier sort of the set state school world or this you know wherever you may be living there. There could be something nearby where you could almost. You could almost make your own. 07:42.10 archpodnet Ah. 08:01.73 Andrew Kinkella Masters and ah my point with all this is just that you've been doing so great I wonder None ars from now 10 years from now you might have a little of that bitterness creep in because I've seen other people in your position that are a decade or 2 maybe later and they get that bitterness of like I know all that stuff. But I didn't have a masters you know and it's like I just I want to make sure you don't fall down that path of darkness. Yeah, right. 08:26.16 Linda Yeah, I'm always in a path of darkness I was a black went up but um, you know I've never felt bitter because I have always had the opportunity I was always um, considered like an asset. Um, even if it was just with you know, 1 person I'm working with who's like my mentor. 08:32.94 archpodnet Um, if. 08:36.68 Andrew Kinkella Um, oh yeah. 08:43.64 Linda Would always give me opportunities. Hey let me show you how to do this So I was getting free education without having to go to school so I just wrote that road that um train and just took it all. Took it all the way. Um, but again, ah that's not to say that I won't get a master's because that's I've done everything else. Why not. 08:44.35 Andrew Kinkella Right. 08:56.62 Andrew Kinkella Right? That's kind of how I felt for you if they're just listening you know I'm like oh hey, it's time and you could bring a really great. Aspect to those like little masters classes too where you where you can be like no I lived this you guys and it's actually like this you know and you could have really interesting discussions where you could help others. 09:22.99 archpodnet So nice. Nice doug. Go ahead with your comment real quick. 09:27.47 Doug Um I was just to say like you know the people who are going to be bitter are going to be bitter like I I don't think um, ah they were going to find something that was going to hold them back because I know plenty of people with degrees. Who are super bitter about archeology and like you know oh it's Horrible. It' horrible and you're just like man just leave just leave you. You could walk away from it and they're like no no I could never walk away and you're like man you just it's a personality So I'm not sure. 09:52.54 Andrew Kinkella So true. 10:00.94 Doug Um, necessarily like I understand where Andrew's saying about some people feel that regret but I suspect in like 98% ninety nine maybe 100% of those cases. Those people will be bitter with a degree. 10:13.11 Andrew Kinkella Oh yeah, they'd be bitter eating fruit loops I Know what you mean. 10:13.44 archpodnet Um, ah yeah, yeah, indeed Heather Heather you meet it. 10:25.87 Heather Sorry, um, just this this reminded me of a conversation I had recently um, with somebody who has an m a um and is having a difficult time ah moving up. Ah, they're they're stuck in the field and they want more. Got an m a so they could move on and so just having an m a doesn't always um, isn't you know like this all of a sudden. Well you know the heavens opened up and now you have everything that you ever wanted. Um, so it's not the magic pill. But it's certainly. It certainly helps and you know what? if you don't have the skill sets the skill set that Linda has um, an m a is not going to help you um it it might help you in some companies that only look at the degree period um, but in general, you're not going to be a success just with an m a and I think we all know that. 11:20.26 archpodnet Now. 11:22.15 Heather Um, the None thing I did want to talk about is that you know it's not just the degree um aspect that allows you to be successful and to move up in Crm and to make more money and be given new responsibilities. It is setting yourself up to learn new skill sets and. So you have to understand that when you are this conversation I have with this this one person they're in the field a lot They're very good in the field. The thing is is that companies have you know the largest amount of people that are working on a project are usually the fieldwork and so the hourly rate that. Can be proposed for a project is going to be lower just because you have so many people in the field. So if you are somebody that start is in the field. Only um, you have a cap you have an ma I don't care if you have ph d if you are in the field primarily. 12:07.10 archpodnet Ah. 12:19.43 Heather You are going to have a hard time breaking that ceiling because you will never make it to a point where you're so what you get what you get paid hourly has to make sense to what they build a client. So if you are only doing field work. Um, primarily you are and you're only capable or you've only shown yourself to be capable. Maybe you're capable of more but you haven't shown yourself to be capable of more you are going to be stuck both monetarily and in you know your your ascension in the company. So you know. People need to think about that whether you have an M a or you have a B a you have to think about how are you setting yourself up skill wise to move into those billing rates that can allow for a higher rate therefore you get paid more. 13:09.70 archpodnet You know I think you bring up an interesting point Heather because a lot of times and throughout this entire show and and the whole podcast. We've talked about how you know the degree doesn't make the person necessarily but degrees in this field like many fields are just a They're a tick in the box. They're a requirement you know in one of the things I'm doing now. There's ah you know in in a lot of industries. They have obviously project managers and in order to even be considered for a project manager position outside of archeology. You need to have a project manager certificate right? to understand the different types of project management styles and. You know there's whole books and and everything in industry on being a project manager and and having that knowledge of you know how to manage projects and we manage projects very differently in archeology. Although I think a lot of archeologists benefit from some of this training outside the industry just to understand a little bit better. How to how to organize so to speak. But that being said, it's a tick in the box like anything else and yet we seem to think about it very differently here in in archaeology and especially in Crm you know about what it means to have that degree about whether you should get that degree you know blah blah blah but in some cases depending on what you want to? do you do just have to do it. You know if that's if that's ah. If. That's where you even want to go in your career because that's a None question. You have to ask is what I want to do something that requires this particular progression or is what I'm doing or might or my future goals amenable to what I'm doing now you know is that okay because that's you don't want to go down that road if you don't have to but. 14:32.73 Heather yes yes yes yes I mean you know this that actually brings up a really good point because when Linda and I work together. We we know that you know everybody has a sweet spot. Ah where they're happy in their career and Linda loves being in the field and she's so good at it. 14:44.56 archpodnet Big thing. 14:50.52 archpodnet Yeah, Brett. 14:59.72 Heather But she's also very good at the other aspects and so you know we found that you know her being in the field for a certain percentage of time is just makes makes Linda happy and um, yeah. 15:09.19 archpodnet Yeah, well and let's be honest Linda I don't know how old you are ah but being in the field for sixteen years I can probably you know ballpark it. You know you're not going to be young forever right? And sometimes people who. 15:09.43 Linda Um. 15:24.88 archpodnet You know, start exiting from the field more so than they are in the field. It's It's a lot of times just because our bodies you know, simply can't handle that level of activity anymore right? and and in order to be able to still have your options open once that starts to happen or once you start to recognize that within yourself and hopefully before that starts to Happen. You start. You know making a move to to have less field Time. So you're not you know like some archaeologists basically crippled for the rest of your life and in one way or another whether it's chronic back pain or you know knees or you know something like that. Hopefully you recognize that beforehand but that is again one of the advantages if you need it for for you where you're going. 15:52.80 Heather Yeah. 16:02.43 archpodnet To to move out of the field now. Of course there's other ways to move out of the field as well. Maybe um, maybe that secondary report writing activity and I only mean secondary as in your name is not on the front of the report but you're doing much of the writing if you're at a company that's doing enough work that could be full time. You know if you wanted it to be and if they allowed that. That could be just something you did all the time where it's maybe it's a little bit of fieldwork occasionally or even going the Gis route for some people is a way to go because Gis is predominantly office work for for a lot of companies and well you know Yeah I mean there's that too so you got to take all that into account. But anyway. 16:29.67 Heather That doesn't pay much but I'm course and um. 16:31.50 Linda Um, ah. 16:38.49 Linda It's a good point you brought up because um when I started out I made sure to curate my career according to what my body was capable of doing so in the beginning of my career I spent 70% of the time in the field and the other 30% in lab and reporting. 16:45.14 archpodnet Sure. 16:51.93 archpodnet So. 16:53.77 Linda And I remember my supervisor at the time. Um, you know sat down with me and said hey Linda maybe it's time to consider spending more time reporting and my response was pretty simple I said use me while you can when my body's capable because later in life I'm going to shy away from fieldwork because I won't be able to handle it anymore. 17:10.91 archpodnet For sure. 17:12.69 Linda And sure enough I'm feeling it you know I'm definitely feeling aches and pains that you know it's taking much longer to recuperate from. So um, you know then I switch from 70% to you know 60 and I kept going down so now my time spent in the field is like maybe 30% and the rest 70% reporting 17:17.42 archpodnet On. 17:27.39 archpodnet Um. 17:30.12 Linda But one of the things that I want to touch on is job security. You can't just be focused on field work because if that field work dries out. What else are you going to do? what is the project manager going to put you in so I made sure to not only know how to do field work lead Cruise excavate I knew how to do lab work I knew how to coordinate monitoring. 17:48.60 archpodnet Move. 17:49.90 Linda I Knew how to you know, do um invoices all of those things So when the field work was done for the season I jumped to all those other tasks and that kept me Afloat and it opened up a range of ah skill sets that I didn't know I can do but I learned it and now I applied all of these things I've learned. To my management position now. 18:09.30 archpodnet Yeah,, that's great. That's great and it's taking all those skills that you know and and not only just taking those skills but having the I guess ability and desire to raise your hand when somebody says I need this done or or if they don't say I need this done. Recognizing that something needs to be done and saying hey I can do that can you teach me how to do it and then now I'll know how to do that and that's really what you know puts that other quiver in your you know in your ah what do you have? What do you hold arrows in your Quiver I guess I don't know another arrow in your quiver that really fell apart path it really fell apart quickly. 18:40.41 Heather How in equipment has. 18:41.10 succinctbill Arrow in your quiver and ah. 18:41.39 Andrew Kinkella If clever. 18:45.93 archpodnet But you know what I mean right? like it's It's just one more tool that you have and and you're not just going to get stuff handed to you in this field. There's too many people. There's too many things. There's too many egos and so you have to take what you want and you have to you have to sometimes create those opportunities for yourself and it sounds like you've done that so all right? Well yeah, it. 18:52.50 Heather That. 19:00.93 Heather And to do that with humility. You know I think that's that's that's one the one skill set and you know obviously I'm I'm a huge Linda fan. Um, but you know the 1 thing is just being likeable. You know, just. 19:05.69 archpodnet Yeah. 19:15.98 archpodnet Um, yeah. 19:18.61 Heather Um, having a humble attitude not coming in and demanding um certain things and you know just having the humility there are going to be times you're going to have to stand up for yourself and you're not going to move forward without doing that you do have to push out envelope but you need to know when it's time to sit back and learn. 19:30.10 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 19:37.65 Heather And say I don't know something and when it's time to move forward and being assertive and um, you know and and then being a champion for others. Not just you know, not just focusing on your own career I think that's something that sometimes we get tunnel vision on because we're you know, especially for those that are very driven. 19:40.47 archpodnet Sure. 19:52.32 archpodnet I know. 19:56.79 Heather Um, and we forget that you know along the way. Um, these are our colleagues. These are people that um, you're going to run into. It's a very small world and so it's important not not in a manipulative way but just to have that mindset of you know when we all move up together. We're stronger. 20:03.96 archpodnet F. 20:13.80 archpodnet No. 20:15.43 Heather When you just have one person who's moving alone ah along and and moving you know up the scale or whatever or up the ladder so to speak. Um and not helping other people up, it's it's you know it's it's not helpful, especially if everybody's trying to do the same thing at the same time now you you know have there's only None person go with that letter at a time right. So if you're working together. Um, as a team. It's you know, long long down the road will be will be beneficial. 20:43.36 archpodnet Nice all right? Well this has been a great discussion and we appreciate Linda coming on to give her honest opinions and and you know direction for where her career is and things like that and I hope people learn from this and maybe took some information from it if you got any comments on this please lead them wherever you found the show or send them directly to. Ah, Chris at http://archaeologypodcastnetwork.com or some of the contact information for our hosts is in the show notes if you look down at your device or you can just go to the http://artpodnett.com website find the sira mark podcast in this episode and leave a comment there. Plenty of places to do that or just on you know. Facebook Twitter wherever you wherever you're seeing this right now. We'd like to hear other people's opinions on you know, whether or not you think you should get a degree the advantages of it. You know if you did and maybe it was useful or not useful that that would be good information for everybody to know as well and we'll always keep your comments anonymous. So with that. We'll see you guys in two weeks and again thanks to Linda and all our hosts for joining us this week and we'll be back next time. Okay so keeping this rolling for the outro god talk all right. 21:48.48 Doug Thanks goodbye. 21:51.37 succinctbill Ah, yeah, yeah. 21:55.64 archpodnet I thought you were doing your goodbye earlier when I saw you go offline I thought was just like a stealth goodbye like Doug peace out. Um, ah all right? So Linda keep your mic open I'm I'm just going to say you know my little thanks for joining us this week and then everybody says goodbye at the end and I kind of. 22:00.38 succinctbill Ah. 22:00.53 Doug Um, ah know my internet cut out. 22:14.67 archpodnet Ah, kind of space them out so everybody can just say goodbye at the same time here. We go thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see in the field goodbye. 22:24.46 Andrew Kinkella See you guys next time. 22:24.70 succinctbill Goodbye. 22:24.94 Linda Um, thanks to everyone. 22:27.20 Heather Thanks for listening. 22:29.81 archpodnet You guys still wait for each other said you can sit at the same time. That's right. 22:30.86 succinctbill Ah, ah I Love it all right. 22:32.65 Linda Thanks everyone. It was fun. It's time to go back to sleep. 22:33.60 Andrew Kinkella I Know feels weird. Ah yeah now now. 22:34.72 Heather Thanks Linda she hopes she won't she won't hate me for too long. 22:41.56 Linda Um.