00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to theerra mark podcast episode two fifty five and we're talking Facebook comments and and censorship essentially that's is really what we're talking about here but doug you had a couple more things to say on Heather's comments 00:15.21 Doug Yeah, it will it. It's coming from like a historical and archeological perspective on just the comment of like censorship. Um I would say like I do think that a lot of people feel like there is censorship out there. Um, and. 00:22.17 archpodnet I. 00:33.60 Doug I feel like a lie bit actually comes down to being called out for being an asshole and people not like being like being called out for being an asshole um, because like if if you look at historically censorship even in like communities I mean like we're talking you know puritans. Man the level of censorship that went on there in communities and exercising I mean you know there's ah this scarlet letter is ah entire play about like how a community ostracized people for not following their views. Um, and that that was the nice side of things I mean if we're talking like censorship. Um Soviet Union I mean China right now where um, yeah, basically they have mass incarcerations and of entire ethnic groups and all that sort of stuff like I I just. I feel like when people say that there's been more censorship than there has ever been. It's more that those people have been in a dominant group for a long time have have developed opinions and people have now just been able to tell them that those opinions are not the opinions of everyone. 01:44.43 archpodnet Opinions of everyone and that's. 01:45.26 Doug Um, and that's that's I think that's actually what comes down to a lot of like um, the sort of social media aspect of things is there's now a lot of people who can put out opinions and contradict people. Um and everyone feels like that censorship and whatnot. 01:59.81 archpodnet Ah. 02:04.47 Doug I Think this comes back to like um you know communities. It's not necessarily censorship if you just say those are the rules and you can join the community or you you don't have to um and you make that decision and you. 02:11.27 archpodnet Say give me if you just. 02:17.61 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 02:22.74 Doug You've you've said what's acceptable and not and you are willing to live with the consequences of that Some people are not going to um, join that group and you might end up with a group of psychopaths because those are the only people who are are happy with whatever rules you decide. But um. 02:33.64 archpodnet Ah, psychopath. Yeah. 02:42.27 Doug Yeah I I think it is a ah damned if you do damned if you don't like situation there that you're in Chris but um I I there's yeah I mean and and we're probably I've probably taken it to like the hardcore aspect I'm sure there's some people who are annoyed that like. 02:47.59 archpodnet Yeah, well. 03:02.33 Doug I'm sure you've probably got a comment of like they used May or they used can instead of may in their sentence which is just silly, but um, you know I'm sure there's some silly stuff like that. But ah I'm pretty sure a lot of it is um. People in the community as putting out their views of what they want that community to be like um and you eventually have to decide what you want that community to be and certain people will stay in that community or not um and. 03:23.88 archpodnet 1 next. But. 03:34.42 archpodnet Yeah, well to be fair, We don't get we. We probably don't get as many reporter comments as some groups do right? Um, it's only every maybe month and a half. 03:35.72 Doug You're just going to have to make that call. Yeah. 03:47.44 archpodnet Two months maybe even that we get some reported comments and it's usually on you know, just on posts that that really get hot. You know they they go viral on on the group anyway and ah and they've got a lot of play and at some point somebody's going to say something that somebody doesn't like when you've got that many comments and and then they get reported. And the quality of the reporter comments I have to say too is also actually pretty good. Um, it. It is things that give you pause to consider and say well. Yeah, maybe this person probably shouldn't have said this but then where I come in at least from my point of view is the type of group that we're in right? This is a group of supposedly. Educated people ah universally almost because except for very few exceptions. You know you've at least got a college degree to be an archaeologist and not that that does anything for you but that tells you the the level of education of the people in the group right? Um, which should. Should say say something about a population. Um, and we all belong to other groups I belong to some you know an Rv content creators group I belong to some a lot of other rv related groups to be honest with you. You know around campgrounds and maintenance and stuff like that and they do have very specific rules around. No political talk. No this no that we don't actually have those rules because. We're all anthropologists and it's really difficult for me to sit there and try to censor in in certain ways I'm I'm not saying we don't censor because we will absolutely remove comments if you know if we think it's necessary and and they really are. 05:15.79 archpodnet You know something that we've decided but my threshold for that is just a lot lower with this particular group I say I should say a lot higher for this particular group I don't want to censor as much because of the type of people we have you know we have again people who are anthropologists who are supposed to be looking at the world in a slightly different way and who are supposed to be. You know, educated about the world in a slightly different way. So I would more rather let the community um handle it a little bit and then maybe they will delete their own comments or you know have a dialogue about it and then if they don't then we step in and and then and then like I said I don't just go straight to deleting the comments either. I like to go talk to the person First if they're willing to respond and and have a dialogue with them on the backend and say here's what's been reported not by who but here's what's been reported. You know I'll give you a chance to revise or remove your own comments if you see fit or stick to your guns and we'll take them out anyway because that's what the community has wanted. So I don't know I give this group a little more leeway is what I'm saying. 06:12.72 Heather Yeah, so so as far as Doug's comments Doug your comment on you know like China Russia things like that. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about this this segment of 6 society in. The most part the western world right? So we're not talking about China people in China are not looking at these? Well they're not looking at the the channels that we're talking about and so and and my point is and maybe we are talking on the same level here. Or we we may agree. We're just um, when people are my thing is it's intent right? So somebody's intentionally trying to harm somebody what I see and and I've been a moderator too. 06:53.56 archpodnet Ah. 07:08.40 Heather But I see a lot of ah can be sometimes that gets out of control and again I think what Chris is saying and none of us are disagreeing with when somebody is truly ah, being hateful right? I'm talking more about censoring people that don't agree with your side ah with your perspective and. That's we want that in society. We want people that disagree with each other That's how we grow as how we learn. That's how we see other perspectives if ever if ah if I'm talking to somebody I want friends and and maybe people are different. You know and and then you find a channel that everybody agrees right? There's there's plenty of those on Facebook that that. Um, differing perspectives are not going to even touch. But for me personally I want friends from all over um society because I I want to learn I want to grow I want to hear different perspectives and the only way to do that is to be respectful of another person's perspective now when they're being a jerk. 07:50.17 archpodnet Yeah. 08:06.00 Heather Then you tell them they're being a jerk but that doesn't mean that automatically they are now an evil person never to be ever thought about listened to ever again. I mean you have there are people have different perspectives and I think that as ah as a society we need those different perspectives. And for people to be looking for which is what Andrew was bringing up that like here he has a he has this. You know this video and it's all negative and and that is what I see is that people are always looking for the negative. Okay, and i. Just to want to shut somebody down and to automatically I think a whole the word ahole is way overused I mean somebody may just not understand what it is that you're saying like when you have an argument with somebody that you know and and immediately right now I'm mad at. 08:53.15 archpodnet Ah. 08:56.32 archpodnet Um, yeah, or. 09:03.61 Heather Like you. Why would you say something like that again back to my husband Why in the world. Would you say something and then after a discussion he and I realized okay that's not what he meant. Okay, and that's that's where we need to get to more in society when I'm talking about censorship I'm talking about when we're trying to shut somebody down as soon as they see something that. 09:11.56 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, that's. 09:23.22 Heather We're upset with instead of having a conversation. We just want to eliminate them from the conversation does not help anyone unless of course it's you know it. It hits the level of true hate speech. Okay, but and listen I've been a minority I worked. 09:31.25 archpodnet So ah, that. 09:35.70 archpodnet Yeah, but. 09:42.90 Heather My first career I was you wouldn't even believe the things like that were said to me. Okay, but I was able said to me done to me I mean literally trying to hurt me being threatened that they want they were going to rape me in the parking lot in a dark night I mean but the way. 09:47.64 archpodnet Ah, but. 09:57.91 archpodnet Parking like the dark night chase. 10:01.71 Heather That um I decided to handle that ah definitely got me a lot further in life and I was able to turn a lot of people's minds around through conversation now. Obviously I called the police on the guy that threat it. Ah, but you know. 10:17.48 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, right. 10:20.85 Heather That's too far right? But when I had somebody who you know calls me whatever kind of word, a bitch or whatever because I don't know if I could say that word. Sorry um, yeah, then you know I'm telling you. There's a lot of people that through conversation and through me just being who I was and. 10:29.95 archpodnet It's too late. 10:40.81 Heather Sticking with who I am like having this fortitude of I believe this is who this is how I believe and you know what when I listen to you sometimes you might change my mind but sometimes you make me solidify my thought even more and by me standing and being true to who I am that gives that. 10:53.33 archpodnet Might be standing. 10:58.73 Heather Person opportunity to look and say Okay, what what am I saying that might be off right? So anyway, that's my perspective. 11:02.95 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, okay. 11:09.56 Doug Ah, a couple of different comments on different things. 1 is like so Chris I don't know what the word is. It's not ethnocentricism. Um, but so probably the same thing of Chris because you're an archeologist you want to think the best of archaeologists last anthropologist. Um. And I think you really have elevated us in your mind I appreciate that that you've put me on a pedestal um of goodness. But I I think people are just people um and I put this in the comments. But it's like the eighty twenty rule rule and like yeah 80% of people of archaeologists will be good. 11:32.51 archpodnet I. 11:45.73 Doug But there's definitely 20% that are are raging rars just just ragers. Um, rage about everything. Um, angry mean horrible people. Um I don't think archeology escapes that anyway I have not seen. Getting a degree I don't think has changed anyone from being too much of a bigot maybe possibly the experience of being a university and exposed to different groups outside their normal community might do it but like the actual process of getting a degree a degree is not there to do that. Um, it's not to. 12:22.35 archpodnet Theresa Well you a. 12:24.64 Doug To make you a a better human being. Um, it's um I mean I guess technically it depends if you're maybe a philosophy major and focusing on something like that. But um, ah it was just it was just to say it's like yeah. 12:31.56 archpodnet What your. 12:38.10 archpodnet You're right? It's the whole. It's the whole process the whole process of University like you said which should make somebody a little more you know accepting of other cultures and things like that. Not just the degree itself. 12:49.40 Doug I I think potentially but you could get that anywhere else I I don't and this might be my this might be just bias sample bias but I don't think I've seen it making any sort of difference. Um in that outside of like people who didn't get a degree. 12:52.36 archpodnet Well not necessarily by. 13:06.18 Doug I Find have the same level of um, crazy meanness as the people who did get a degree. Um, so it was just to say is I think we're slightly putting archaeologists on a little bit ah a pedal stool there. Um I think we're all just people and human and um I'm not sure if there's anything that we've. 13:19.96 archpodnet Yeah, anything. 13:24.23 Doug Going through the process of becoming an archaeologist or anthropologists will make you a better human being on Facebook um I wish it was true. But I I don't think I've seen that in my experience. Um, and I I think okay. 13:34.48 archpodnet Well okay, so let me well only comment on that real quick before you get too much into it I can't comment on too many things at 1 time so I wasn't necessarily putting archeologists on a pedestal and saying that they're all good because they're archaeologists right? I was really saying that they're more. 13:42.89 Doug Here. 13:51.46 archpodnet I Want I Want to give a little more censorship leeway to this group of people that has you know at least studied and and and potentially you know read up on and even done their own work regarding. Um you know communities that were possibly um I don't know communities that were. Ah, marginalized or something like that you know at least read about stuff like that. So it's It's a little more you know I know where people are coming from when it comes to this group of people like I said if I'm in ah if I'm in an Rv maintenance group. It could literally be people from any walk of life and any job any industry any anything and you have to have some. 14:23.16 Doug I've touched my. 14:27.19 archpodnet Some rules around the conversation there. But when we're talking about a group an industry related group of professionals then I then I generally know something at least something ah 1 tiny little aspect of their background that we all share in common and that is our education and our work experience for the most part. And that's why I'm saying I want to give them a little more leeway because it's a community of people that should be for the most part policing themselves. You know what? I mean so and I wouldn't give that leeway if I were an admin in another type of group that wasn't focused around um a particular thing regardless of the industry. You know what? I mean. So. 15:02.98 Doug Yeah, fair enough. Um I'm a guys I gotta go make dinner So I'm on just to one last I go do that wonderful like last last comment out. Um and then you know. 15:11.91 Andrew And then I'm going to totally talk about you after you leave. 15:16.53 Doug Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, no, it's it's how we end all social media thing you just got to make sure you get the last comment in um, but it was it was kind of just to go back to a point where um this this idea of like real hate speech and stuff and like like for a lot of people like Trump. He just said the the things you say in quiet out loud like ah yeah for a lot of people. Um, but like they were always there and it's it's a real I think it's it's one of those things where like you can be a real jerk. You could be ah a nazi. But if you say it like. 15:38.36 archpodnet For a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people. 15:54.67 Doug We're putting now a standard of it's how you deliver it? um that that's bad as opposed to what you're actually delivering so like when we're if you're drawing the line and Heather I'm not trying to put words in your mouth and obviously like when the guy um this is probably not exactly what you meant. So. 15:59.70 archpodnet It's how you ah, it's bad. 16:13.72 Doug Please do correct me. But um, I'm sort of probably going off from a tangent to what you actually meant Heather um is that yeah like um, you know obviously when the guy was like you know he was threatening to kill and rape you and stuff like that obviously very horrendous but I think. Behind that is the person's intention of wanting to destroy you um or not you know denying your existence of as a human being and I think there's a slight issue especially on like a lot of social media where things will be acceptable and that you get those people. Who who who run that line like I think probably Andrew will have this with the Graham Hawk wait what's his last name the the big pseudoscience Guy Hancock yeah he doesn't he. He's very good because all all of his followers are able to say well Hancock has never said anything racist about how. 16:54.13 archpodnet With Graham Hancock Hancock 16:54.24 Andrew And Hancock. 16:57.61 Heather Um, yeah. 17:06.97 Doug Like he hates black people. Yada Yada Well he's not. He's just very, he's just put out nice words that like brown people are too stupid to do anything um and was all done by white people and aliens. Um, but it's not in those words like he's he's he's done it very elegantly and you get a lot of people who are like that. 17:16.29 archpodnet And white people. Yeah, um. 17:26.40 Doug Um, and so I think it's a really tough part on those groups because you you end up with like well they didn't actually threaten to kill you? No, they just politely said that you shouldn't exist. Um, you shouldn't have a right to any of the rights that I enjoy but they said it with a polite smile. So. It's okay. Um, and and that's the same I mean like when you run into these groups. These people be like oh no, No no I swear I'm I'm not a nazi I'm not a nazi I mean I am just repeating the same words. The Nazis said but in a polite way. Um, and I I don't think Politeness should be have. 17:45.81 Heather I Mean like ah. 18:00.98 Doug And influence on these discussions about what is what is and is not appropriate behavior Obviously ah, aside from like it should be appropriate behavior but like a lot of it is. It's not so much how they deliver it? Um, it's It's what the message is like you. Um. 18:07.30 Heather But you need to figure out. 18:17.24 Heather But you got to figure out what that message is though first doug So that guy made it very clear when he said he was going that he wants to do that. He made his message clear what he was doing now somebody else could come up to me and could say you know I don't think you belong out here and just for context people. 18:19.81 Doug But. 18:36.98 Heather I I refered professional hockey for many years and so that was the environment that this incited people in this back in the 90 s all right and to the early 2000 and so when that would happen I can't automatically assume when a guy says I don't belong out here. That he is on the same plane as telling somebody telling me that he wants to rape and kill me outside in the dark parking lot. So like there's a point where you have to make a decision like somebody saying I don't belong out here is not the same as a person who said the other right so that should be shut down immediately removed. And he should be dealt with this other guy who says that he doesn't think I belong out here. Okay, let's have a discussion let me show you and tell you why I belong here and I'm telling you at my experience I've did it for 35 years I was in that world and people and I'm still in that world to some degree. People can't their minds can be changed and and that's what society should be about you. Can't change mind without discussion. You just can't when you eliminate somebody you don't change their mind. You just eliminate them so I do think that sometimes they need to be eliminated. But I think some I think more often than not is a discussion. Oh I think I don't think. 19:55.64 Doug That I guess I just end with um I don't think Heather you should have to be the person who has to do that which yeah. 20:02.51 Heather Well, that's my decision I wanted to do that I don't want people fighting my battles for me and you know what I didn't get to the level that I was at in that world by letting somebody else fight my battles for me I didn't want to do that and you know what it it made me the person that I am right now I'm tough as a cookie I'm successful because of it. 20:05.37 archpodnet I won yeah my god. 20:11.56 Doug Um, but I think this this this is. 20:20.87 Heather And I learned something about myself I learned that in that that that grittiness that that grit is what has made me successful move me on and that grit is what solidified my beliefs since in society my belief and you know whatever I think I was exposed to a lot more than ah, most people. 20:26.71 archpodnet That ah that that written. 20:40.83 Heather And I still have a positive view of people. So. 20:45.38 Doug But I think this goes back to my point in the first part is like a lot of people just get really tired of it and don't want to have to do that and so it then goes to the the admins to sort of take that on the wonderful job of being an admin. Um and I think that comes down to the community because I think a lot of people will. They just they'll they'll assume that actually it's not worth discussing this with yahoos because honestly ninety some percent of the time it doesn't seem like it changes their mind. Um, and so I think that's that's the thing is like when you let a lot of these things slide because you're. Letting the community. Do it. You're just putting out a lot of people who probably have gotten a lot of this. Um and it's just going to like it's not for everyone to so maybe maybe for some people it is to stand there. Um and argue on Facebook back and forth but a lot of people I think it's just going to leave. Um, wherever the community is and then you end up with a group of psychopaths which is how I've seen so many communities go so I guess my point is like Chris I would I would be a lot more heavy-handed with the um, um so if you want to call it censorship I would just call it. Um. 21:46.56 archpodnet Ah, let's see so many. 22:01.70 Doug Curating curating the voices of people who are not um, psychopaths. Um, and ah that that would do. My advice is um, you know a good curated um anything is actually amazing. 22:07.61 archpodnet Ah, and. 22:15.94 archpodnet Yeah, amazing sure I hear you depends on the the rules of curation though you know who sets the rules That's where we all struggle but all right. This has been a lot.. It's been Great. We're gonna come back and and have a lighter segment 3 on the other side of the break. Back in a minute.