00:02.70 archpodnet Welcome back to the sira mark podcast episode two fifty five I'm sure the first part of the show was only about 10 minutes long because I edited out pretty much everything Doug said and you know included my own comments. So that's ah. 00:13.58 Heather We love Doug we love you Doug. Ah, you told me to my life. Yeah. 00:15.96 archpodnet Duck he told me to just curate my life and and how the things I'm administering and I'm administering this podcast so I curated him out of it. No I'm just kidding. Um, so but he did have to leave and that's just a coincidence so he's not in this segment. Um. 00:22.44 Heather So. 00:30.74 archpodnet So we're gonna we're gonna lighten it up just a little bit and and talk about 2022 2023 as a whole and and kind of where we're at here and I heather I want to start with you obviously and and get your sense of I guess 2022 overall how it. Kind of went in the crm industry in the region you work in after the chaos of 2020 2021 and and how all that does how is this all kind of shaken out is everything back to normal. Are you guys still in scramble mode with too much work. 00:48.34 Heather And. 00:56.24 Heather No scrample were definitely in scrample mode and I don't see it changing I you know in in the beginning it was everybody's just like we are assuming we're gonna slow down and then because of certain things that were. Going on during the pandemic to adjust for stuff and all around and not even going to get into that if we ended up being busier right? than we had been before and I think a lot of changes happened also in the Sierra world as far as you know companies. 01:16.47 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 01:21.96 archpodnet Yeah. 01:32.70 Heather Larger companies buying up smaller companies at least here in California there's a lot of shifting around going in that direction and then that I would say for 2022 some of the big things were the the clients were done. 01:50.35 archpodnet Yeah, so big boy. 01:50.68 Heather With the excuses of Covid so they put like in doubt that we we didn't We were always trying to deliver. But I think in general for their vendors for the people they hire. They were sick and tired of people using and we all know people have done it the excuse of Covid to not do their job. 01:56.91 archpodnet Twice? Yeah yeah. 02:10.30 Heather In a timely manner in a proper manner and so because of that I saw a lot of clients asking for very unreasonable deadlines thinking that if we ask for, you have it done in a month maybe we'll get it done in three months so they're at but and so for some people that are like not. 02:13.14 archpodnet Ah, that. 02:25.96 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 02:30.20 Heather Oriented towards really trying to deliver what the client wants that might not be that much of a big deal. But for for somebody who does say okay I agree to this I will I will do it made it very very stressful, um, contracts change because of that. Like we never really so sometimes you would see in contracts where they had like if you don't meet this deadline you know, but we saw it a lot more in 2022? Um, another thing was the all people hiring people became a lot more difficult. Um. 02:59.28 archpodnet So ah. 03:06.63 archpodnet Yeah. 03:09.47 Heather Ah, you know there's a lot of this talk about you know going get the most that you can and I am not against that fine. Go get the most you can but understand what your ranges understand what your capabilities are don't come in and say. I just graduated with the b a and I want one hundred and twenty Thousand a year you know with this concept that you a big environmental firm. You guys make a million dollar you know that like billions of dollars that's not how it works and I've said this over and over again. The the profit margin is is small in crm it really is and in environmental. 03:28.80 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 03:35.96 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:45.86 archpodnet You know. 03:46.68 Heather Overall so you know you can't just come in and say you know I've got you and and you're gonna give me whatever I want and there was a lot of that lot of people just delusional when they you know when we were talking interviewing people and and looking for people to to fill spots. Um. So I I would think you know ah hiring was difficult and and with that said I'll I'll say there's nobody who fights harder for the people on my team to get the most amount of money they can okay but it's also a business decision. So and you also have to be able to produce. 04:17.38 archpodnet Like yeah like you. 04:24.10 archpodnet Yeah, like. 04:25.72 Heather So I think um, the main thing was it did not slow down it got crazier the um parameters on us for contracts and work became more strict put a lot more stress on certain people on the team and um, an overall hiring. For as many jobs were out there and and as many people looking for work. Yeah, it hiring was a major challenge this year yeah 04:52.32 archpodnet I think just one comment just stuff I've seen you know on on obviously social media but just just conversations with with people in other industries I've had been fortunate enough to work in another industry that I didn't even know I was. I guess qualified for for the last few years nothing related to archeology at all and in just conversations with people that work in this industry and then other people that work in at this company. Um, again, nothing involved even with the environmental um the environmental space. It just. They're floored at ah, whatever we talk about. They're like oh you know you know how much does an archeologist make you know people just boldly, ask that and I you know I get into it a little bit and say well it depends on where you're at and stuff like that. But generally this, you know and in the in these spaces and they're always floored at how I guess low that is right. 05:43.16 Heather And. 05:45.37 archpodnet And especially working in say California and Southern California I mean good on you to try to get people as much money as they can but like you said it's ah it's a business decision. But I mean how do we? This isn't the conversation for this show obviously but I mean how do we raise up the. That floor as a whole you know what? I mean that range I should say the floor-to-ceiling range of what an archaeologist gets paid sure try to get them the maximum. But even the maximum is too low in a lot of cases to just live on depending on where you're at and and comparing it to other educated industries. 06:19.30 Heather You know what? I mean? yeah. 06:20.15 archpodnet You know what? I mean like somebody might be asking for 21 and you say well you're not qualified for that but like like maybe that should be the number you know say and like for for that level. 06:26.86 Heather Well well I think I think though there's a lot of and we've had this discussion people are not being prepared in University for the reality of you grow in your career like there's a there's a progression. You don't get out of college and you're making that amount of money. 06:34.70 archpodnet Yeah, astro. 06:35.82 Andrew Yes. 06:46.50 Heather Like it's not just all archaeologists should make this amount of money you have a certain skill set you pay your dues in the beginning and you move up the ladder and you know we've talked about this my company has as we've worked hard to have as rewarding of a. 06:48.73 archpodnet Yeah. 07:05.86 Heather Field path career path as there is a project management path right? So I believe that strongly but there's you know the field work just think about it. You have a couple people that are writing right? and then you have. 07:06.76 archpodnet Yeah I Yeah I need that. 07:23.79 Heather You need a lot of people digging So you're not going to have the the cost the the amount of money we can bill people out that are excavating in the field is going to be less is just going to be less I mean you're gonna have the supervisors and stuff but not everybody across the board is going to make the same amount of money. 07:27.30 archpodnet Ah, you're not. 07:42.79 Heather And you have to understand that you know what there's in life I may want to I trust me I dream about having a coffee shop I would love to have I've I've got like this this idea I had how much I would just and sometimes when I'm writing I'm like oh my God I just I just want to make E Expressos I Just I Just whatever. 07:48.48 archpodnet Me too I Like this. 08:02.50 Heather Cute little coffee shop with lots little crafts in it and you know but I'm not going to make the money I want to make doing that and so I if I want to have a certain lifestyle I'm going to have to do a certain level of job. It's not a. 08:08.90 archpodnet Yeah, why. 08:15.64 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:18.81 Heather You you can't just say I want this I mean if that's the case you could be sitting doing nothing and making one hundred and twenty an hour so there's people just need to be more realistic and have to understand that there's something that they have to work towards and they will get there if they work hard but you can't just it's not time in grade for some it is. 08:22.38 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:35.35 archpodnet Yeah. 08:37.89 Heather And if we go the union way it would be but it's I don't think that's a good way to go the time and grade idea is just not anyway I were going. We're getting off the beaten path here. But yeah. 08:47.00 archpodnet Yeah, well yeah, well what I heard is ah professors and universities suck Andrew go. 08:55.46 Andrew Well yeah I guess I can't believe that you've pulled the lid off like that to the honest truth We indeed all to a person suck anyway. Ah. 09:06.75 archpodnet Um I I heard that from grand Hancock actually so yeah. 09:08.84 Andrew Yes, yes, he's he's ah, absolutely correct. Ah again I just I feel like a weight's been lifted that I can finally tell the truth that and I know the archeological cabal is going to have me assassinated within the next twenty four hours um anyway I'm gonna I'm going to take this time to just brag about myself again for the first time ever. 09:19.51 archpodnet More than likely. 09:28.48 Andrew You know you guys are like what? um in terms of of what's happening in 2023 just the other day I got interviewed for American Archeology Magazine which is I know did ah which is through the archeological conservancy. 09:29.53 archpodnet Like yeah, what happened. 09:36.41 archpodnet Yellow fancy I did. 09:42.11 archpodnet Leterpency and think. 09:43.30 Andrew It's the magazine they they put out I really like that magazine but they interviewed me about crm they were asking me about you know where I saw c rm going in the future. What I what? ah universities should do in terms of CR m 09:47.25 archpodnet Read me about here. Yeah, where I. 09:58.19 Andrew And I basically talked about the crazy dichotomy where universities are closing their Crm programs as the need is increasing you know and that was just ah, really fun and interesting to talk about I I brought up the um. 10:04.99 archpodnet Everything Yeah, that was just. 10:05.24 Heather So. 10:10.74 archpodnet 6 Yeah. 10:14.77 Andrew 2020 article by Jeff Al Juul and Terry Klein about the forecast of the serum industry market. Basically you know that in time they're going to need more cr m people and there's nobody with that kind of focus or skill set or again not nearly enough people I think Heather's point is really true like. 10:23.70 archpodnet They're going to need more crm people nobody with that kind of. 10:29.30 archpodnet Not nearly enough people. There's going. 10:34.41 Andrew You have people going into crm and and that's great and they have the basic a lot of times they don't even have the basic skills. But even if they have the basic skills. They don't have the skills to to move forward. You know what? I mean Heather it's like you can be they they can. 10:39.71 Heather Lotni not sacred build the basic build. They don't. 10:45.36 Heather You know what? I mean yeah, you. 10:50.17 Andrew Get on a field crew and work there or monitor or whatever but those higher end skills the the yeah right? And so here's my second brag. Um. 10:53.72 Heather No, they don't It's so and we're finding less and less of it. 11:03.55 Andrew For the spring I'm starting a New C R M Professionalism class which I already have students in it and it's going. So this is where we're gonna focus specifically on the law report riding all that kind of upper echelon. Yeah yeah, the business of the stuff I feel like it's like the stuff they never taught me you know so. 11:12.47 Heather Business side. The business side of things which is really important. Yeah. 11:15.74 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah stuff I feel like. Me Yeah, that in terms of what. 11:23.68 Andrew That's in terms of what's coming for 2023 those are kind of 2 things that I'm excited about. 11:27.72 archpodnet Love it. You know and that's super awesome and I kind of wish I could take that class but that being said, um, Heather again thrown it back to you just a little bit and this would obviously affect Andrew and the students he's putting out into the world. 11:35.43 Heather So section. 11:42.49 archpodnet You know it's no secret because I've seen this on Linkedin I've seen it on. Um I've seen it on Facebook so so I'm not blowing anything off the lid here. Um, but stantek is buying companies like it's their job right? Stantek is just buying everyone and not just in California although they're buying a lot of California companies and not just archeology either. They're buying bio. Paleo. 11:51.85 Heather And yeah. 11:59.77 Heather Know sure Yep so. 12:02.18 archpodnet You know they're they're doing all kinds of stuff so with with companies like that and you work for a pretty good sized company too I don't know if they're a standek size company I Globally yeah I didn't think so um, but still, they're not. They're not too shabby right? They're a pretty good size now I. 12:11.25 Heather No, no yeah, right? Well yeah, we're intentionally we like I think there's since some intentional intentionality I Guess um to not being that. 12:24.95 archpodnet Yeah, right, right? Yeah well in stantek as well as stantek isn't just environmental field work. They build stuff too I mean they just they have they have all aspects of the of the ah situation. That's exactly yeah well, you're actually probably the kind of company. 12:28.50 Heather Yeah, it's not because we yeah right? exactly? Um, we're more focused. Yeah. 12:42.80 archpodnet Maybe too big. Um that stantek may buy in the future or try at least. So yeah, yeah, yeah, be hard for them to do that? Yeah well my point is looking into 2023 I mean how does that. 12:46.25 Heather Do they now we we're in esop Um I don't And yeah, oh my god. 12:58.27 archpodnet Impact work when you've got these big companies. It's not just standantekch That's doing that. There's other large firms out there that are multinational you know construction and engineering firms that just they don't want to contract out anymore to get the archaeology or the biology done. They want to have it done in-house so they can control that process so they're buying these companies that have the business. 13:10.65 Heather Right. 13:17.28 archpodnet Book of business for the area that they want to work in so they don't have to try to go get those contracts. They're buying up people that already have them. So how do you think that's going to impact your work. You know. 13:18.00 Heather Right. 13:24.66 Heather Well, it's also it's driven by the client by the clients. A lot of times um, having a 1 ne-stop shop they don't want to have to go around. They want to have one company that takes care of them from start to finish. So that's that's 1 thing and then I think that. 13:29.22 archpodnet Like yeah, want want sure. 13:42.21 Heather You know we're just seeing for for me I think some people may disagree but we have like this chasm now. So now we have these larger companies. Um that they don't touch. They won't touch some of the work that I that I do that my company does like it's too small potatoes for them. So I think that when you have. 13:42.58 archpodnet Um. 13:56.29 archpodnet I Do sure makes sense. 14:01.94 Heather Stantek buying up these these now stantek. Now you have fewer people in that space that are willing to do these medium size projects. Um to me there are larger projects but to standantek they're not and so I think the other thing is now. You know, maybe it leaves some I mean we have like when you're doing work like let's say you some just a mom um a family's trying to do in addition right? and they have to deal with the 8 the city that they live in. 14:28.71 archpodnet Families. Yeah, the. 14:33.85 Heather In order to do that to go through the process right? And maybe it doesn't hit the level of a larger document right? but they do have to have an investigation done that I think you know we are seeing these smaller companies kind of fall away right? They're being bought up or people are just not getting into that space. 14:34.71 archpodnet It. 14:49.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 14:53.31 Heather And so I think that that that somehow that has to be answered the the office that I run um I have no problem doing those smaller because it's a perfect training ground for our younger ah younger in their career. Ah employees. 14:56.65 archpodnet The moment. 15:05.78 archpodnet Sure, Yeah, yeah. 15:13.20 Heather So I'll I'll take those where some of the offices in my same company won't even touch them because it's two. It doesn't matter to them. It. It just depends on the region but we still have some of these mom and pop people that are just working out of their house. But I think I'm thinking maybe that will come ah that will start increasing again. Maybe I don't I don't know because otherwise in some areas I don't know who's going to be doing that work who's gonna do it. So yeah. 15:34.64 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, it's true. You know that's it's a uniquely California problem too right? because it's ceqa that requires a lot of stuff but you go to plenty of states where you don't have to have that kind of cultural environmental permitting to do something in your backyard. You still need like a permit but the cultural aspect is not included. 15:47.81 Heather And right believe like. 15:54.55 archpodnet Right? Um, and it's almost uniquely California yeah, um, yeah, yeah, what's a good place for that to be a law too because in in a lot of California you can work here around. 15:54.56 Heather No, yeah, it's definitely a ah California Centric yep which is good I'm glad it makes means I I'm yeah got job security. So. 16:07.44 Heather Yes, yeah. 16:09.40 archpodnet Ah, pretty easily and and keep people employed I mean not some parts but you know a lot of it and so yeah, all right? Well, that's ah, that's interesting I'm interested to see where where all that goes and you know I remember saying a long time early on in my career that I wouldn't mind working for 1 of these. Larger firms one time. In fact, I worked for I did a project my wife and I we were basically shovel bumbing for a project up in Washington state 1 time long time ago before I got accepted to grad school even and it was with um, Amec and Ame isn't even ammec anymore I don't think they they've been bought out I can't remember what they are now. But um and Amec was a. 16:40.99 Heather So yep. 16:45.93 archpodnet Was a big firm. They had kind of a small presence in archeology and crm. But but a big you know one of those big firms and I kept thinking if my life was going a different way. In fact, they tried offering me a job as ah, um, as a. As a crew chief at the time but that right as I was on that project I got accepted to the University Of Georgia for grad school. So I never ended up doing that but I was like man after working for so many like smaller archeology companies and just job to job and doing this different thing I just want to work for a big company that can. I can have 1 paycheck one set of benefits and they can fly me around and do different things if they want or they've got enough work regionally to keep me busy. It's just the whole the whole process of just you know applying for a job every two months was really starting to wear and we'd only been doing it for like three or four years at that point. 17:16.49 Heather I mean around. 17:31.91 Heather Um, but that but but as you move up that that effort there is just replaced with business development like as you. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah well I don't know I mean like if you have a team. 17:37.63 archpodnet Which is fine. Yeah, that's still a secure paycheck though right? like we may not have a paycheck next month because we can't find a job. You know what? I mean. 17:49.20 Heather Like I think I stay up at night just like the person who stays up at night I guess it depends on. Maybe people don't not everybody cares about other people. But for me I do so I stay up at night just like I did when I was a contract archeologist just getting job to job to job. 18:04.71 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18:08.75 Heather I stay up now at night making sure that there's enough work which has not been a problem recently. But that there's enough work that the people that are on my team can can can still have a living so that that's where my concern shifts. Yeah. 18:10.88 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 18:19.50 archpodnet Oh yeah, it's it's stressful I mean I've had employees at several points in my career owning a company and you know a lot of times more often than not I don't have employees. But sometimes I've had anywhere from either 1 to 10 employees depending on the size of the project and I'll tell you what you're not really either a business owner or somebody like you who's directly responsible for you. Not you know your signature might not be on the checks. But you're responsible for their livelihood based on your work and if you're not. 18:46.27 Heather This right? You're not. 18:52.67 archpodnet Losing sleep at night worrying about payroll then you're just not a compassionate person. Yeah, so yeah, it's tough. It's really tough. Um and it's good that you're in the situation you're at now where you guys have got you know more work than you need. Um. 18:55.47 Heather Exactly exactly? yeah. 19:08.37 archpodnet But that has its own level of stress too. It's like now I got to find more people to do these things and you know you don't want to lower your standards so to speak to bring more people in the door but sometimes you might have to because you don't have anybody else. Yeah, it's got its own problems. 19:13.33 Heather Yeah, yeah. 19:20.46 Heather Well I will say this is for people looking for work. Um, ah, there's 1 thing that's taught me um I mean not that I haven't learned it before but even more so it's solidified in my mind I really would rather hire somebody number one. That's a. 19:37.30 archpodnet Nice. Yes. 19:37.29 Heather A nice person who's right and and doesn't it's not a jerk and number 2 is trainable I will under I will under hire somebody with less experience if they're train if they're trainable and. 19:44.71 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah I. 19:57.30 Heather Ah, and a nice and a good person. Nice person I shouldn't say good person I'm not gonna make that judgment somebody but nice person to work with and a nice addition to the team and that is key and so you know you can go and just speaking to people looking for work. You can be the smartest person in the room. But if you're not nice to work with. 19:57.98 archpodnet Yeah. Nice, Yeah, nice. 20:16.52 Heather And if you're not trainable I don't want you on my team and I I had learned the hard way. We've hired some people that said they had certain qualifications and they don't and the the worst thing in the world is having to let somebody go even if even if they're not an not a. 20:18.40 archpodnet Yeah, and. 20:26.60 archpodnet Yeah. 20:34.58 Heather They end up not being a nice person. It's still a crummy thing to have to do and also as a waste of time and you have wasted all this time on them now. Um that you could have been brought somebody else in so that would be the thing My advice to people is like yes focus on your skill set. 20:34.83 archpodnet And. 20:40.31 archpodnet Oh yeah, yeah, right. 20:52.33 Heather But also focus on who you are as a person. Yeah yeah, and like. 20:56.12 archpodnet Yeah, and I I can't speak to how to assess somebody's trainability or not because that is really tough. Um, you know, just it's it's yeah for sure for sure. Um, but they can Also you know there's people that can pass a lie detector test too. 21:02.77 Heather There's questions you can ask in a interview for sure. Yeah lie. Yeah I I know trust I we've been through that too. Ah. 21:12.45 archpodnet Ah, but but yeah, but to bring this full circle back to social media I think personally that that is 1 thing that social media is good for whether it's Facebook or Twitter or um, you know, even ah, Linkedin something like that. You know if you are if I'm if I'm hiring somebody. I do try to go look at their social media profiles and if they don't have any that kind of says something to um I don't know what that says right now there's a lot of people bailing on a lot of social media platforms for various ethical reasons not because they were kicked off. But if they are on their social media platforms just trying to see what you can see. You know from the groups that they're in and how they interact with people in those groups I think just judging on the first forty minutes of this podcast. It says a lot about a person how they interact with people. They don't know. Um as keyboard warriors you know what? I mean. So yeah, there's ah, there's definitely 2 people that pop out of my mind one on Twitter and 1 on Facebook that. 21:49.59 Heather Um, yes. 21:56.96 Heather It does it does? yeah. 22:08.63 archpodnet While highly qualified individuals in their own fields I would literally never hire if I they were their last person on Earth because of their attitudes online and yeah, ah, true. Yeah, exactly. 22:13.63 Heather Um, yeah, don't don't say that too loud Chris because I want people to out themselves honestly I don't want them to be more careful I'd like to know so although you know yeah. 22:26.48 archpodnet See if we censor too many of those comments you'll never know it again to bring it full circle. So we just we take their rudeness away So nobody sees it. Ah. 22:30.89 Heather Yeah, that was my point that was my point. 22:38.51 archpodnet All right guys? Well this has been a great 2022 for the sierra mark podcast we've we've grown in numbers a little bit which is great. We don't always grow in numbers. Um, because it's a finite number of people in this field and I feel like we've grown because the the field has grown somewhat obviously podcasting is getting. 22:48.57 Heather I feel. 22:57.15 archpodnet More accepted as as a thing people do I mean even just a couple years ago you could ask a field tech sometimes if they listen to podcasts and they might say no but more often people especially in this field are listening to podcasts than they're not so thank you for that and ah and thank you for any comments you've left throughout the year and I hope we have a. Ah, great 2023 coming up. We've got some changes coming to the apn with our hosting service which is gonna mean some other changes that we can enact with that new hosting service and some other cool stuff coming down the line so keep an eye on the space but aside from that thanks everybody and we'll see you in 2023 all right keeping a rolling for. 23:33.90 Heather Happy New Year oh sorry ah 23:34.55 archpodnet Keep it a rolling for the outro you can say that in a minute I always actually struggle with ending the actual segment and then the outro I'm like I don't want to say goodbye but I got to end the segment. You know what I mean so all right here goes the outro thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field. 23:40.51 Andrew Um, yeah. 23:40.56 Heather Yeah. 23:54.16 Heather Thanks everyone for listening this year it's been fun and here's to 2023 23:54.26 archpodnet Goodbye. 23:59.37 Andrew See you guys next time. 24:01.95 archpodnet Again, Awesome All right.