00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the serum archeology podcast episode 2 65 and you know we were only intending to talk about the toxicity of Facebook posts for a little while but we spent a whole segment but now where we said we're most of the hosts were like I don't go in there and give my opinions we're going to do that exact thing right now. So we're going to talk about a post that was in. 00:11.40 Heather A. 00:19.23 Heather Um. 00:19.91 archpodnet Was in archaeo field texts some of us saw it and it was just ah, it was actually fairly recent I don't it wasn't within the last few weeks I think and you have the ability on Facebook. Oh yeah, yeah, you have the ability on Facebook now in in private groups which kind of shocks me if the group is private. 00:27.23 Heather A few days ago. Yeah. 00:36.38 archpodnet You wouldn't think this would be an option but you have the ability for the last like I don't know four or five months to post anonymously and and anybody can do it right? And here's the thing. The anonymous posts have to be approved by moderators I don't know if you knew that. But if somebody decides to post anonymously. We get to read it first and say okay, yeah, they can they can post this anonymously. So. Like if somebody tries to post a bunch of a bunch of hate speech and hate speech anonymously and they don't want to be crucified for it then obviously we're not going to let that through right? So at least there is some moderation there but I still don't understand why you would post anonymously in a private group now and I was wrong too. 01:06.61 Heather Yes, in weird. 01:10.54 archpodnet With the number of people in this group I said 2500 I hadn't looked at it in a while there's over 4000 people in this group. So ah, you know a lot of them probably aren't in there anymore. Um I think Doug's Doug's child is in this group as well. I'm not really sure. But ah. 01:15.53 Doug O li. 01:23.60 Andrew But. 01:25.27 Heather I was a cute little scream. Ah. 01:25.96 Doug yeah yeah sorry guys so yeah I'll try to to mute it. She's she's around she she'd like to to join the podcast I told she needs to be a little bit older. Ah Chris do you actually see went anonymous. Do you actually. 01:26.44 archpodnet I Think that was doug. 01:35.80 archpodnet Ah, nice. Nice. Yeah. 01:46.38 Doug I sorry guys she jumped right in there I to mute real quick. Um I was just go say Chris you actually see who's posting or is it just come through as anonymous like anonymous to you. 01:47.80 archpodnet Um, yeah. 01:53.76 archpodnet It for a very short period of time it came is out as anonymous as to. But I actually just noticed on the last one that I approved that I can see who's posting it. So yeah, so it's not anonymous to the moderators. Yeah, but. 02:03.26 Doug Oh sorry, good to know side sides that thing. 02:05.35 Heather Ah, yeah. 02:07.85 Heather the only time yeah the only time I think that that is fair is if somebody's asking a question that could put their job in Jeopardy and and it is a legitimate question and they really are looking for help you know from the from the hive right. 02:12.18 archpodnet Yeah. 02:23.40 archpodnet Um, sure. Yeah, yeah, and you know the thing people need to remember too while we're get ready to jump right into This is. 02:26.63 Heather That's 4000 people it's a lot of people. Um that can give you some input but um, yeah. 02:38.79 archpodnet It's not just archaeo field techs right? And the the group is intended to be field technicians in archeology and it was kind of started in California so a lot of California archeologists were in there first but now it's it's kind of all over the country. And it's not just field techs there's a lot of um company pis that are in there Heather you're one of them. Um, there's I mean I'm one of them for that matter. So there's there's a lot of people now. Granted people come up in their career right? So they may have started in the group as a field tech. It's been around for a long time and now they're not anymore. But I know for a fact that I've had. 02:54.76 Heather Here here. 03:04.24 Heather Sure. 03:11.51 archpodnet People that I know that run companies or that are pis of companies actually messaged me privately and said you know can I join this group and post job post and stuff over there and I'm like yeah I I mean I guess if people don't like it. They'll moderate it. They'll they'll report it So you know I try not to moderate that kind of stuff and and the other moderators don't either. 03:22.77 Heather I. 03:29.57 archpodnet So we'll basically let anybody who's in archeology in so it kind of needs to be renamed to be honest with you. It's no longer really archae field techs. It's ah it's archaeologists and mostly north american archaeologists. So anyway, with that being said, there was a post that we wanted to give our opinions on that. Heather noticed and she's going to paraphrase that for us right now. 03:50.18 Heather So point Paraphrase can I Just read it. 03:53.47 archpodnet You can just read it if you want it was posted anonymously so I don't feel. Yeah it it doesn't matter who you know you can't tell who did it. So yeah. 03:56.64 Heather Yeah, yeah, it's anonymous I think I think yeah I think I think it's important to understanding The the reason why I want to respond the way I want to respond um and why I think it was a good inspiration for this topic. So. Here It goes from an ah anonymous member in archaeo field tax. Anybody else move from the field to crew managing in a cushing office and have intense guilt I'm struggling with it right now as Summer is coming up and my office temperature doesn't change. But outside where my crews are definitely is the last thing I want to become is like some of my past pis where they didn't understand or care about outdoor conditions and how brutal they can be close Quote. So. 04:48.98 archpodnet Right? right. 04:53.70 Heather Um, you know I've I've got lots of feelings about this and it could be that this person is just new to P I quote unquote to being a Principal Investigator. Um. And I don't know. Yeah I mean you go into different areas of the country and the definition of principle investigators different. Um that that was enough. That's another topic I was considering talking about is the titles that people have and for those that are new in the business just so you know titles are. Really mean nothing in this business except for when you're you have a permit and they have a requirement for what you call yourself and if you meet their their definition of what that title or what that role is um. 05:27.62 archpodnet Sure. 05:44.17 Heather So a principal investigator could be a senior archaeologist could be you know a lead project lead that sort of thing. Um, so you know I had you know everybody can they can post what they want I just I had a little trouble with this post because personally I think that it. Continues to promote exactly what this anonymous poster is saying they're trying to avoid which is this concept that principal investigators are lofty sitting in a cushy office with no challenges whatsoever and meanwhile. Their field crew is sweating and walking around slugging a hundred pound loads through a wilderness in 125 degree heat and you know I'm exaggerating. But you know that's not that isn't anything i've. 06:34.92 archpodnet Oh. 06:42.25 Heather Ever seen I haven't seen it and the fact that this is it's it's assuming that this is the norm and a lot of these comments. Although there's some people that push back a lot of these comments say the same thing they're just perpetuating this this narrative that. 06:44.37 archpodnet Yeah. 07:01.25 Heather You know pis and project managers ah have no feeling or thought or consideration of proof conditions and um and basically the crew they're the they're the innocent bystanders that have no agency and their own. In their own life if they're the victims so it just it kind of bothered me but you know I'm not going to assume this person's um, purpose I can't but I do think that the message it gives is is not good and it's not good for our. 07:20.18 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 07:38.70 Heather You know for for our discipline for C or M because it's just simply not true. Um I think I'm going to stop there and let people chime in and then we can move on. 07:38.95 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:47.64 archpodnet Ah, yeah I mean every time I see something like this where somebody's talking about you know? Well I don't want to be like 1 of those people that does this thing and they make this generalization about ah generally about a group of people right? because you you always hear things about oh there's the. 08:01.62 Heather You hear. 08:05.33 archpodnet There's the managers that always did this. There's the company owners that always did this and to to be honest, it's never the field text that did this. It's always the the people in the upper parts that did this right? Um, but it's it's always curious to me because it's like well first off, you know. 08:10.89 Heather Right. 08:20.74 archpodnet This is probably why I've been fired from several jobs. But I'm like why don't you just name these people and and publicly shame them if they're actually doing such shitty things for archaeology like I I really do think that if we want to make the world a better place then you know we should metoo them out of archaeology if that's what you really really want then stop just complaining about it and generalizing. And let's fix the problem. You know what? I mean so there's that little aspect of it first. But the other thing is I mean who actually is so out of touch that they think that everybody above them thinks that they've forgotten what the field is like it's just that they have other concerns pretty much like you did Heather I mean you you can't say well we're not going to go in the. 08:52.21 Heather Yeah. 08:59.33 archpodnet Work in that area because you know it's It's too hard. You know we're just not going to do it but hey right? yeah and your company's not going to exist. 09:02.18 Heather You do that if you do that field text you're not going to have a job I mean it's real Simple. We can't make we're in this? Yeah, we're in this Discipline. We know what we got into there are osha rules out there and I do I mean are there is there? No one. That's. Not following Osha of course, there's always bad apples but but to assume that it's across the board which is definitely what people act like on some of these you know Forums is that it's across the board. It's not.. There's there's there's laws regulations I've worked for lots of companies I've never seen that. 09:24.94 archpodnet Um, yeah. 09:29.27 archpodnet Yeah. 09:38.86 archpodnet Well and there's yeah, no, there's pathways for you to approach people when those laws and regulations are not being followed. There's you know there's the shippo there's rpa. There's whatever agency you're working for. There's the better business bureau. There's there's all kinds of places Now it's hard. You got to you actually got to. 09:40.43 Heather And in fact, I've actually been yeah, go ahead? yes. 09:55.51 Heather H r it's HR for the company. Oh hello. Yeah. 09:58.24 archpodnet Think about doing these yeah human resources for Christ's sake yeah, yeah um yeah so there's pathways for you to deal with that Andrew. 10:08.76 Andrew Well I'm gonna be doing the rest of this podcast anonymously. So if you guys could just you know, respect me. Um, so I would say man when I hear this kind of stuff I'm like okay then why don't you just turn off the air conditioning. 10:13.89 archpodnet Um, yeah, no problem. 10:16.30 Heather That's not. 10:25.79 Andrew And then like keep doing your job if you're so like beaten down by the weight of possibly trying to be this cliche that you've like constructed in your own Mind. It's like stop it stop it and stop it. You know that's why I'm doing this podcast anonymously by the way. Um, I Just this this kind of stuff it. It drives me nuts and I will say as an aside I wouldn't even be this harsh if we knew the person's name. You know it's because it's anonymous. Um, because I don't believe in like. 10:45.44 archpodnet That's. 11:02.65 Andrew Dog piling on somebody in any kind of media right? So I'm I'm not here to like make the person overtly feel bad. So I um I feel okay being blunt you know about this but um, that's just what I would say I'm like come on I agree with you guys. You know I agree with everything Heather just said I mean it's it's. Part of the job but it's not that the um pis are sitting on their throne in their castle you know while the serfs are out there doing all the manual labor all day and night. It's much more complex. It's much more nuanced and um, the only way that I would. Ah. In a backwards way. Defend them is maybe they truly don't know this you know, maybe they don't know the the positions and stuff I'll say that when I first started crm? Um I had no guidance in terms of the possible roles in crm, how me as a field tech could. 11:46.42 Heather Um, yeah. 12:00.84 Andrew Ever Go into the quote unquote office. You know I didn't I didn't understand any of that nobody ever told me that there were like different positions. You know like and what the latter was like of success in this world. Nobody told me any of that. So. 12:16.34 archpodnet Ah. 12:18.45 Andrew I can feel a little for the person in terms of if they're totally ignorant about that stuff like I was but um, even with that said, they've still gone a little too far over the top. 12:28.46 Heather Hey Doug. 12:29.23 archpodnet Ah, Doug. 12:30.50 Doug So. So ah, yeah, man like actually it moves on nicely from Andrew's thing I think actually this is this slightly goes back to I'll pull in our first segment with this segment um is. 1 of the problems also with like the social media things is that it's highly biased. It's when you see questions like this or people's experiences you get a very biased a very um. 13:02.17 Doug 1 ne-sided sort of view. So like this person may be thinking that this this might be their only experience as Andrew was saying and so to them I mean this is what they think archeology is I mean was it not. 13:11.51 archpodnet Ah. 13:18.85 Doug Last year. So ah, Louisiana Field Tech died from heat ah heat Stroke Yeah heat exhaustion. Yeah yeah, so I mean like there. 13:24.50 archpodnet Yeah, he had exhaustion or heat stroke. Yeah, one of the 2 13:25.30 Heather Ah. 13:35.65 Doug This is one view but I do find this is like again one of the issues with sort of the social media is that any of those groups are self-selecting and biased in a way and it it a lot of groups will come off with this sort of view and and present is like. Oh this is the archeo field text you're you're going get a range of views um about different things and it'll be helpful but actually you're not so like if you saw a lot of people agreeing with this post. Um I'll be honest, guys. It's been a while since I've been Facebook so I didn't go and check it out. Um. 14:09.27 archpodnet I have. 14:11.98 Doug But like if if you're seeing a lot of people agree with it. Yes, that might be it. But it's probably a bias sample. It's this is the experience and that's that's just it is like um you also end up with sort of that's why dog piling happens so easily because if you were to give an alternative view of what's happening. 14:15.80 Heather A. 14:30.58 Doug That's not the view of that biased sampling and they are absolutely going to hate you. Um, for giving a different view because it's not. It's not what they're used to. 14:39.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 14:41.75 Heather Yeah, Well so so the thing is is that ah you know we call it virtue signaling right? Um, when somebody is saying that this is the purpose of the post but it really smacks of not like so let's let's let's look at this post and I'll. And then we can move on to the next segment but you know specifically when if if this person came on and they were trying to Okay, how can I improve my like are you really posting because you truly feel guilt. Are you so really sitting in your office and feeling guilty if that was the case like if you really felt that way I I Just I question it um, not that it's my place but I can say what I want So um, so but I think if if your intent is to. 15:25.34 Andrew Right. 15:33.48 Heather This not to be the case for the people in the crew or you know the crew to not be under those kind of conditions. Honestly, if you came from that perspective and you don't want to have those kind of conditions for your crew just make sure that doesn't happen and actually you see some responses like that. Ah a response to this post quite a few of them. 15:47.86 archpodnet Ah. 15:52.96 Heather Actually, but the if you really are looking for options to make sure that your crew doesn't have these issues then maybe that's your question and so but it's Facebook and people can post what they want to post and. 16:06.10 archpodnet Ah. 16:09.63 Heather My main thing and the reason I want it this more Just um I didn't want to call out. It wasn't calling somebody out for posting something like this. It just was an inspiration for ah the topic of how can we close the gap between field. 16:22.45 archpodnet Yeah. 16:25.80 Heather And office and that's what we're going to tackle in the next segment. 16:27.42 archpodnet Sounds good. We'll be back in a minute.