00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the serum archeology podcast episode 2 65 we're wrapping up this topic on closing that gap between field personnel and and office personnel and especially when you transition from that I do got to mention just a couple things though, there's like 32 comments as of ah may twenty first when we're recording this There's like 32 comments on this post and I would honestly say that 95% of them are largely ah positive as far as not positive that they're positive comments but positive as though they're they're answering the question in a way that I think might help the poster. You know what? I mean some of them get over it. You'll be fine and some of them are like well. 00:32.47 Heather A. 00:38.17 archpodnet You're recognizing this and that's the first step to not doing what your superiors have done in the past and things like that few people that are posting some snarky responses which you could you can expect right? and ah and then and then bill I'll say this because he would have said it on the podcast if he was able to make it today but his response was no just just no. 00:41.70 Heather Right. A. 00:56.24 Andrew And. 00:57.83 archpodnet And that's true like maybe you just you come from 1 spot. You come into the next spot and and you have different responsibilities and you just have different things to worry about and think about not that you're not thinking about the field crew. But you know you're not going to send them into a you know a smoking volcanic caldera right? I mean you're going to. You're still going to be conscious of that. But you're also. You're also relying on the people that are between you and the field crew like the field directors and the um you know the project managers if you're a pi and the ah and the crew chiefs to to have that sort of responsibility. So anyway, that's my little rant on that. Um, but yeah. 01:30.30 Heather Um, okay, so so I I want We only have a few minutes to actually really tackle this subject I think we'll do a high level but um. 01:37.87 archpodnet But. 01:42.96 Heather So This concept that there's this huge gap between field and office. Um I Do think that that sometimes that is the case because you may have um, you may have let's say companies that are doing work away from their corporate office. So. Their pis or their senior archeologists. The people the project managers who are running the actual project or who have yeah running the project on a higher level are are in another state and the crew you know there's just separation actual physical separation which then. Leads to an actual gap in skills or net skills. Sorry ah tasks. So but generally I don't think that that's the case most of the time. Um and so are there separations between field and an office Certainly there are but I. Wanted to argue for the fact that I I personally think that that's not the best Um, not the best Avenue Ah, and I think some sometimes people do it because it's just the easier or that's just the way that it's always been. There are some explanations that I want to give from a from a management perspective. 02:45.15 archpodnet Ah. 02:48.72 archpodnet Right. 02:55.92 Heather That people may not consider if they're in the fields and 1 thing is is that in the field. It requires a lot of people right? a lot more people than it does in the office to write things up to even to do the analysis. The lab analysis. It takes always takes much more people. Many more people to actually get the field work done and so when you're looking at budgets as much as people say you know what? the hell with a budget you should pay people this much and they should be paid the same amount as the people that are in the office and that's not the way it goes and if we went that way. Or if your company went that way. They would not have work and therefore the employees don't have work so we have to look at this and have some balance here and 1 thing is is that when you the more people that require are required for a task the less money that those people that are conducting that task. 03:36.43 archpodnet Right. 03:49.88 archpodnet Earth. 03:50.41 Heather Are going to make because you have your spending so much I mean that's not ah, a rule across the board but generally it is right? So You need a lot more people to survey and it's a combination of how many people are dipping into that budget and the skills. Skill set that it requires to accomplish that task right? So if you have somebody who has a very refined skill set a skill set that not many people have and requires certain level of education and there are so. 04:09.92 archpodnet Yeah. 04:25.77 Heather Tasks like that I don't care what people say there are tasks like that. Um, then those people are going to get paid more They're just going to and the people in in the crew you know surveying if it doesn't require very specific tasks like gpr and things like that they're going to get paid less and. So if you don't if you want to make it up if you want to make more in it. You know at a job then you're going to have to step outside of 100 % in the field. You'll never cross that barrier if you are in the field one ah hundred percent of the time you you need to have other skill sets. 04:59.40 archpodnet Ah, right. 05:04.20 Heather Now doesn't mean that a project manager can't be in the field but that's the way life works I mean as you build up your knowledge and your skill set you get paid more money. That's the way it works so you know that's 1 thing that people need to understand you've had people come to me and they're like I need to make more money and i. I'm sympathetic to that and I always encourage them open up your skill set step outside the field because you can have you I've seen people that are so skilled but they're not using the skills. So it's not just about I have the skills you have to be in a role where you're using the skills. So you have somebody who has an ma. They have a ton of skills yet. They only want to be in the field. Well then you're only going to get paid a certain amount. That's just the way it works. So um, you're not using the skills that you have and therefore you're not going to get paid. So. Not only do you have to have the skills. 05:47.60 archpodnet Yeah. 05:56.10 Heather But you have to be able to be in a role that you're using the skills if you want to increase your pay. So yes. 06:01.21 Andrew You you know I I would say though with um with that stuff I mean I agree with you obviously Heather but I think one of the problems like I touched on a little bit before is just the ignorance of the actual positions. You know like I'm I never knew that stuff and in my experience. 06:14.63 Heather We. 06:18.90 Andrew Cr m firms ah were pretty poor at telling us what is actually out there. What does their company offer I would love if all CRM firms attention all crm firms if you could just have a single piece of paper that lists. 06:22.40 Heather I agree. 06:36.40 Andrew The actual positions from like basic field tech to like field supervisor to senior archeologist. Whatever they are list them all out list. The minimum qualifications for each one So me as a as a new archeologist I could look at that sheet of paper and go oh. 06:48.32 Heather A. 06:55.39 Andrew I could move up if I get this skill set. You know I've never seen one of those in my life and I just is it is it easy I will say to. 07:00.13 Heather Well we have one My company has one we we do have that now a. 07:09.42 Andrew Is it easy to find is it obvious or is it is it buried in like the new employee handbook you know I want it to be like front and center. 07:14.33 Heather Ask No yeah and you know what the thing is sometimes exactly what you're saying if you don't know to ask. You're not going to get it right? and so but if there's a difference if you're as needed. It's not offered to you. Ah not that it's not open to you. It's just not something that's offered to you. 07:21.27 Andrew Yeah. 07:33.50 Heather If You are a part time or full time employee. Yes, every single one knows about it because we talk about it at your midyear and end your review or we bring it up over the year If you're a good manager. So yeah, we do have that we have a. Career pathing is what we call it and very specific Rubric. It's On. It's a table and there's a rubric but you're expected if you want to move up here are the skills that you need to acquire in order to move up. Yeah yeah. 07:51.85 Andrew Right. 08:01.30 Andrew Okay, yeah, that's that's really really cool because I found in teaching the crm class that I just finished it was really hard for me to find a typical list. 08:12.12 Heather Yeah, yeah. 08:13.67 Andrew You know of what the positions in a cerm firm actually are and I think that also goes to Crm firms themselves. There's some more larger ones that'll have these positions but then the smaller firms will just be like yeah we just hire some people and they work with us and you know like companies that are run by a single person. So There is variety in company size. 08:32.10 Heather You know, yeah society for California archaeology actually has something like that. Um, and what's ah, a problem is the office of historic preservation is kind of stepped away from having these specific criteria for different levels. They only they have just. 08:36.73 Andrew Right. 08:44.84 Andrew Right. 08:48.40 Heather Like the bare minimum. You're either this or that and maybe that's part. What's contributing to this concept of having this huge gap between crew and p I right? or senior archeologist Doug Did you have something you want to say. 08:55.35 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 08:58.95 Doug Ah, yeah, it was. It was actually to follow on that and you guys sort of touched on it is that like the I think the poster and also us are making assumptions about um there being a difference between um office and fields and as. Andrew had mentioned a lot of smaller firms which you know there's several hundred I think at 1 cather, there's over 1000 quote unquote firms which a lot of those are just like 1 or 2 people or they bring people on as is. And like there's such a huge range and like Andrew actually it's it's a huge problem is like like when I do that job stuff and looking at wages. It's actually ah a big problem because I I kind of I've created categories and we stuff people into those categories because they're close but close is not the same and like. There's not 1 universal like that person talking like we're kind of assuming that you know all companies you you become an office person you do nothing but the office but not all companies are like that or all organizations and there's a huge mix and a huge range and. 10:03.56 Heather Yeah. 10:11.19 Doug Well I appreciate like a ah document would be amazing. You're probably going to end up with like so there's what a thousand firms like 1500 different documents just because it's archeologists and you know, um, like there's you can do some yeah that. 10:20.16 Heather Yeah. 10:21.16 Andrew Yeah, no I Totally appreciate what you're saying. It's true. But I I would rather up that than nothing because I was totally in the dark and stuff. So. 10:30.64 Heather Well when weren't you saying where you I thought I assume that what you were talking about is that each company has that So if each company has that then you know how the structure works in that company so you know, um and I think that's why the office of historic preservation. 10:31.70 Doug Ah. 10:47.19 Heather Has not provided something like that for exactly why Doug? what Doug is saying is that it would be impossible to get something that covers everything and so um, but I do think it's possible on a company level for companies to be transparent in what is available out there. Um, my perspective. And how we work on the team that I manage I truly believe that the best way to train and bring up people and and also give them a perspective and let them enjoy what they're doing is to have a combination of crew ah of um. Tasks for everybody that works on the team. Um, there are people that are strictly heather I really don't want to do anything but be in the field. Okay, well that's fine and I respect that but I always encourage people to have a varied skill set and I I like them to follow I like. Us as a team to follow a project from start to finish so they're part of the process and in fact, when there's questions that say the team we're starting a project and the team says Heather are we doing this this and this and I'm like it's in the proposal. So from the very beginning they're grabbing that proposal. They're looking at the proposal and the proposal says. Okay, this is our radius our record search radius this is you know what? the transects are for the survey this is what we can expect and so from the very beginning they get this perspective of what what is um, you know what is entailed for this project and. 12:20.55 Heather If somebody's writing a proposal that isn't just cookie cutter and and you know but actually is customized to the project then that's a good first start for people that are in the crew then the next thing would be the research design and then you know moving throughout the project and then they do the field work I think the best people. For writing up fieldwork or for writing up that section in all the field work and the environment are the people that were in the field. That's just the best way. So from my personal perspective. So then that allows not only is that a give a better perspective and you don't have gaps in your report where. Where people in the office are writing and have no idea what the field looked like I mean they could have looked at it on Google earth it still doesn't give you a really good idea of what was out there. So having people be a part of a project from start to finish now only provides a better report. It gives perspective to everybody that's on the team. It helps them understand why we do what we do and it also allows them to to look forward and say oh you know what? this is something maybe I would like to do just like what Andrew was saying it gives them a window into maybe other other avenues. For their career and archeology doug. 13:40.77 Doug And I think what we're coming onto is that communication is probably key like the issue of this thing is probably a level of communication because as we've talked about like a lot of companies are different. So um, you're going to have different aspects. 13:58.18 Doug It's going to change and like we're also kind of assuming that a company stays the same and that your job stays the same and like you could have the same job title and be doing something very different than what you did 5 years before just because companies grow the sector changes life moves on. Um. 14:16.35 Doug I Think if we were to go back to this this this top level. You know this communication between or this this issue of you know in the office for field staff. Um I Think what probably this person's the heart of the problem is is actually just poor communication or poor leadership. And if they've had this view that the people in the office just don't care and stuff. Um I think they're probably not having what you've just described Heather about how you communicate the entire project to everyone and that the idea that even if it's not necessarily. 14:44.67 Heather A. 14:54.38 Doug Totally relevant to what you're doing. You have an overview of a project and that helps and I suspect. Um, really if we were to suggest one solution to this problem is it's actually just probably more internal communication within organizations um or companies or. Wow Know Whatever you want to call it to would probably hope alleviate a lot of these problems. 15:18.11 Andrew I totally agree with you Doug and now I've agreed with you so many times on this podcast doug that I'm just I'm a little lightheaded. 15:26.32 Doug You Oh man like you should really go to your doctor Andrew and check to see if like yeah that that heart right there that that murmur you're feeling is irregular heartbeats. Yeah. 15:30.74 Heather And so that to wrap to wrap this up if if this individual anonymous individual is in front of me I would personally I Just think you know. 15:35.90 Andrew Ah I just I know I'm sweating who yeah. 15:48.57 Heather Exactly what a lot of the posters or responders said was you know if you see an issue then do what you have to do to make it different I mean that's where you should look at it and say you know what? here's my opportunity to make it different if you really truly had nothing but negative experiences in the field and you felt that pete. 16:04.11 archpodnet Heat if. 16:07.73 Heather Previous your past pis were abusive well then don't be that and and move on because that's the best way to change the dynamic across the board and you can only control what you can control so control your own little world make that piece of life better for yourself and others. 16:24.60 Doug last last 2 seconds It's somewhat not related at all. It's just like we'd use the term virtue singling a couple of times and I prefer the term mooning um because I prefer it's like it's people like wait mooning I'm like yeah stop mooning. They're like what do you mean? I'm like. 16:25.98 Heather And there's your answer. But. 16:32.28 Heather A. 16:32.78 archpodnet No. 16:42.36 Doug You know showing the world that you're an ass I find most that virtual signaling stuff is is is more about like just showing the world that you're an ass. 16:43.91 archpodnet Wow. 16:49.29 archpodnet Nice, okay, well with that I have included a lot of resources and to be honest, they're the resources I have access to which are from the blog that I used to write I had a lot of posts actually about leadership in different things when I started my own company and that journey that i. Went through doing that and some of the things that I encountered and then also I found 3 crm archeology episodes that I might I think might actually be a little bit helpful if some of our hosts have other references. They want to drop into our show notes then they'll do that. Otherwise there's a lot of really good stuff there including a link to the archea field text group on Facebook if you are not in there. And don't know how to search you can just click right here and it'll take you straight there. So with that I think we'll end this episode and you know keep posting over there. We. We always ask people to send in comments or setting questions really and things they want to learn and you know we might get 1 every month or a couple months or something like that. It's not really that much which I totally understand I listen to a lot of podcasts and I literally. Never respond to anything because you know I'm driving or I'm doing something I just forget so I I don't begrudge anybody that but keep in mind we are watching some of these other resources and we like using them for you know, starting discussions like this one. So if that's how you want to do it. You can even tag us in a post if you want us to. Maybe see something more specifically if we're in the same group that you are um otherwise we're paying attention and we will see you next time. All right? keeping it rolling for the outro. 18:18.50 archpodnet Thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 18:26.65 Andrew See you guys next time. 18:26.85 Heather Bye. Everyone. 18:30.12 Doug Hi everyone. 18:37.42 archpodnet Ah, okay, then bye. 18:37.55 Andrew Yes, hold on.