00:00.00 Andrew So welcome back to the crmarcheology podcast and we have been talking about field school in Scotland with my student Griffin Fox and Griffin I thought during this segment that we could really take a deep dive into the field school because so many of us. Haven't worked in Europe before have no idea how a field school in Scotland goes. You know? what's what's the daily setup you know for a field school in Scotland what do you do in the morning you know where do you stay at night and that kind of thing. So if you could just sort of. Take us through that experience I think that could be really cool. So how how did it? How did it go for you. 00:41.75 Griffin Fox So um I guess for starters I should say I was in the city of sterling which I think I've already touched on but um, it's not at all like it's not the highlands I was not roughing it up in the mountains as fun as that would have been so I was just staying in a hostel in town. It was a. 10 to 15 minute walk give or take from my room to the site. So not exactly roughing it. It was pretty easy in that regard. But that all of course that would vary if you were working up in the highlands or somewhere else in Europe or whatever. Um, but. 01:13.48 Andrew Right. 01:17.60 Griffin Fox Yeah, other than that, um, the actual work we um, we dug 4 trenches I want to say 3 or 4 I'm pretty sure it was 4 Yeah 4 trenches which was a lot more digging or a lot a wider area of digging that I'm been used to here in the. 01:35.14 Andrew Right? Just when you said when you said like four trenches I was like whoa you know so about about how big were they like how big were the trenches. 01:36.32 Griffin Fox States I've only ever done shovel test bit to units. Yeah I forget the exact measurement it was something like I think it was two meters by 01:53.66 Andrew Yeah, so big. This is a large. 01:54.40 archpodnet Chase. Yeah. 01:54.13 Griffin Fox 4 or 5 give or take and there was they were quite large. Yeah, but there was 20 plus people there. So I mean it went by fairly quickly. But yeah, a lot and. 02:02.79 Andrew Right? And then we I'm sorry to but it are you were you digging like you know ten centimeter levels or how did you guys go down as you went. 02:12.40 Griffin Fox So they were much less concerned with stratigraphy at least on that project I think because it had already been so badly compromised that they yeah we weren't really, we weren't taking as exact measurements and I even asked them about it and they they were not concerned they were they were interested that we. 02:22.98 Andrew Ah. 02:32.10 Griffin Fox That us as Americans were more interested which was kind of funny that could just be a project by project thing but at least in that one it was yeah you know stratigraphy and measurements were not nearly ah if we found some rough. 02:36.90 archpodnet Me. 02:41.25 Andrew Um. 02:47.76 Griffin Fox Very notable artifact. There was more measurements being taken and obviously the dimensions of the artifacts themselves and all that were being taken but depth and placement was a lot less emphasized over there. 02:58.10 Andrew So then you you dig for a while and then you guys what break for lunch or do you have like a mid morning break or is there. You know like a tea time or something that would happen over there across the pond. Oh. 03:00.10 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:08.39 Griffin Fox There wasn't there was in fact, a tea time which was very funny as most stereotypical u k thing there was tea time about 2 hours in and then 2 hours after that was lunch. 03:16.83 Andrew Her Ah her. 03:24.67 Griffin Fox And then we'd get 1 more break in the afternoon before we packed up for the day and we were basically there from 9 to 5 give or take. Um, yeah. 03:29.31 archpodnet Um. 03:33.22 Andrew Right? Sounds sounds pretty straightforward and and also your living accommodations man that sounds nice. You know like I'm I'm jealous that they were able to. 03:42.55 Griffin Fox Um, it was. 03:47.13 Andrew Set up a project like that where the crew could stay at a hostile type situation Super close to the site. So as a crew did you guys just all like walk down together in the morning. 03:51.84 Griffin Fox Yeah, well I Well I should preface it um food and lodging and all that was not accommodated for that was something we had to find ourselves so that was just what me and my friends stumbled on was that hostile. 04:03.60 Andrew Ah, right I see so everyone would like stay in town. 04:10.10 Griffin Fox So everybody that I more or less some people who were actually living in Scotland would just commute from whatever city they were in like there was a couple people who would take the train from Edinburgh or whatever there was other people like farther away but still in the city that would and still need to take the train or whatever to get. 04:17.99 Andrew Right. 04:29.84 Griffin Fox Close enough but me and my friends all stayed in the same place and we just walked and a couple other people did the same. It was very. It was very much that's kind of that's why I say not a traditional field school per se it's um because it was very much just you pay for the digging experience. 04:35.60 Andrew Right. 04:48.93 Griffin Fox The rest is up to you which in some ways I kind of liked because I know oftentimes field schools can I don't want to say scam but they can put you up in a place that isn't ideal or there's a lot more? yeah. 04:51.50 Andrew Ah. 05:00.42 Andrew Right? I think you can say so I think you can say scam. Yeah yeah. 05:05.30 archpodnet Yeah I think that's right to say. 05:07.28 Griffin Fox Yeah, it can be a scam but I but I appreciated the agency that it like separate that paying for your own food and housing and all that allowed for. 05:20.11 Andrew Um, right I think it's excellent, um bill I can see your question. What's up man. 05:22.63 Bill White Yeah I wanted to know are there were there Any folks that were getting stipends or anything on that or were the people who were directing the project were they getting paid or was it just only the City archeologist who was getting paid and everyone else was paying to be there. 05:37.64 Griffin Fox There were um, there was like 1 or 2 I Want to say other people who were getting Paid. He had a crew of like supervisors I don't know if they had an official title I don't think they were being paid by the city but he gave them a stipend. There was. 1 who was ah set another fully trained professional archaeologist and then he had a couple undergrads and grad students that he had worked with long enough that were basically helping him run the show and they were all getting they were getting compensated for gas money at the very least I'm not sure how much further the pay went. But they were definitely getting something. Yeah. 06:13.34 Bill White Ah, right right on. 06:18.59 Andrew No, that's that's great I still I just I can't get over the the organization of this and I just you know Griffin when you originally told me about this I was of course insanely jealous because ah it was a good idea that I was not a part of ah and I just. 06:32.00 Griffin Fox That must have been hard for you. 06:35.36 Andrew It was very difficult I went into a period of mourning for myself. Ah, but yeah I was really impressed. You know and ah Murray sounded like such a he was doing something in such an intelligent reasonable manner. You know and ah. Of those people on the crew I'm curious about where they want to go with their lives like like we want we know where you want to go with yours. You want to go onward and get a phhd and all this kind of good stuff but did you get a sense of what the other people on that crew wanted to do that. They want to continue in crm. Um, or you know what. What did they want. 07:15.60 Griffin Fox Yeah, um I didn't interrogate them specifically on it. But if it was a mixed bag. There was definitely. There was one that I know is basically like Murray's apprentice quote unquote trying to do the same thing the crm or. 07:27.50 Andrew Um. 07:30.76 Griffin Fox It's not called that over there. But you know what I mean there's others that are currently just trying to get their bachelors and or Masters I couldn't tell you if they're trying to get more into that public archeology side of things or academics. But I mean it seems much more hand in hand over there. Also. 07:31.80 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 07:49.50 Griffin Fox So it could be. It could really go either way. 07:50.96 Andrew Right? And then in terms of the crm when you said oh they don't call it that they're what do they call it there. 07:59.95 Griffin Fox I think the I think the official term is just public archeology. Um, yeah when it yeah right? How about that when yeah when Murray introduced himself he did say crm. But I'm pretty sure he was just saying that for. 08:05.70 Andrew Ah, another completely reasonable term What's up with that. 08:17.90 Griffin Fox Us as Americans like as a frame of reference for what he does because I've in all my other dialogues with European archeologists I don't often hear the phrase crm. So. 08:29.65 Andrew Yeah, me and either ah no, that's cool. He was you know he was speaking your language in order to get you to understand what was what in store for you. 08:32.61 Griffin Fox Yeah. 08:39.55 Griffin Fox Dumbing it down for the stupid ignorant americans. 08:44.13 Andrew Exactly? Ah so I know that this experience affected you in a very positive way again. I became instantly jealous because you know another professor that you liked him better than me but ah is has this. Ah. Influence your choices in terms of grad school or career choice or you know moving forward. 09:10.56 Griffin Fox Well I definitely I did not realize how ah how niche Scottish archeology actually was I assumed it had been all kind of very much documented and was like a get in line kind of situation as it turns out. That's not the case because for. 09:17.80 Andrew Um. 09:22.91 Andrew Right? right. 09:28.54 Griffin Fox Very long time they were basing all scottish archaeology or all pictish archaeology at least off of Roman Accounts which as we know I feel like as American Archaeologists History is oftentimes biased but over there since it's. 09:38.16 Andrew Um. 09:47.89 Griffin Fox Archeology is a subsect of history. They hadn't had that realization as recently as we have and so there's a big gap in actual authentic knowledge on the picts that I think I would like to going forward study more and I think with my background working. 09:54.77 Andrew Ah. 09:57.46 Andrew Right. 10:05.60 Griffin Fox Mostly in prehistoric context without written word I think I'll have something of an advantage. So yeah, basically it did shape my entire grad school approach. 10:11.51 Andrew Sure right? No, that's that's great and um, a couple things are first when you say pictish I don't know what that is so I'm wondering if you just explain the basics of like how old it is time period. You know what is meant by the word. 10:21.47 Griffin Fox Oh here. 10:29.93 Andrew Pictish. 10:30.74 Griffin Fox Yeah, so it's actually kind of a blanket term almost. It's what the ah Romans referred to the Scottish tribes as when they were conquering the entire world or at least trying to um. 10:44.24 Andrew M. 10:48.90 Griffin Fox Forget the exact time range. It's out there. Obviously they exist a little before the Romans and then basically fade away with them when like the iron age and the vikings and all that come into play. Um, but you know it's ah it's a catchall term they were called picts because they would like. 10:58.41 Andrew M. 11:07.26 Griffin Fox Cover themselves in war paint and then picked Latin like picture they looked like paintings. That's why the romans called them that yeah and yeah. 11:14.14 Andrew Okay, right? Um, yeah, interesting man and then for you so you have this experience in a you know what feels like like a local almost you know, local City archeology project that. Has a very crm flavor to it and then you take it back home and then for your grad school is this something you looked for in terms of where you were applying with the professors that kind of thing. 11:44.51 Griffin Fox Yeah I applied to a lot of scottish schools actually because you know that would be the place to learn about Scotland but then there's all the issues with going to grad school as an international student the lack of funding the much quicker and much less. Um. 11:54.31 Andrew E. 12:02.80 Griffin Fox Personal I Want to say grad programs over there which have their pros and cons I Think for me the American system would work better. It seems more in line with my ways of approaching these things. Um, but yeah, so then I looked at. 12:06.26 Andrew Yeah, sure. 12:18.88 Griffin Fox American schools as well. That had European Archeology programs one of which was buffalo and while they didn't have a pictish or scottish archeologist on staff I Talked with the people there and there was enough of a. Enough of a collection of faculty there for it to work for me and then I would just have to do some networking on my own which I've already done and I feel confident in my ability to do more of so that's where I'm at now. 12:44.73 Andrew Right now I think that's great and another thing that I think it's excellent that you bring up is your an american student who wants to work in Europe and. I've seen other students like that in the past try and do that and I know it's pretty difficult because like if you want to work in the Maya world you know or this kind of thing or work in the desert southwest or something like that. There's a lot of choices right? So many. 13:13.40 Griffin Fox Um I got. 13:13.51 Andrew Of my students and my cohort when I was a student. You know we all ended up in that kind of stuff or to South America to Peru or this kind of thing but going someplace like Scotland I thought was intrinsically pretty hard because it seems like there's not that much in terms of. Faculty in the 4 year world who can take students on to do that. It seems like as you would think it seems like it's all in Europe. So I think it's what was it difficult to find even a place like Buffalo. 13:45.34 Griffin Fox It was I actually only reached out to buffalo because I had heard just through the years that they had a decent European archeology program. But like I said nobody focusing on scal and so I just reached out as kind of ah a last ditch effort Really I asked them if I like. 14:00.58 Andrew Um, right. 14:02.80 Griffin Fox The man I reached out to I said I basically said I know you don't work in Scotland but would you consider like advising me for a masters and he got back to me and said first off, you need to apply for the ph d because you're way too qualified for just the masters which already you know, stroked my ego. 14:21.72 Andrew Um, yes. 14:22.29 Griffin Fox And so and then he said he basically said I know I don't focus in Scotland but I've advised plenty of dissertations much like what you're interested in in all parts of Europe I have connections all over I can get you set up alongside any connections you have yourself I'm happy to advise. Anything loosely related so it was just a weird like coin not coincidence, but just it was weirdly perfect for something that I was not at all intending on truly going to and now it's my not only my top pick. It's where i've. 14:49.82 Andrew Sure. 14:57.79 Andrew Um. 15:01.80 Griffin Fox Accepted My they've they accepted me I've said yes, that's where I'm going. 15:05.10 Andrew Yeah, and I love this story because that's how it's done. You know I I have this odd feeling in my chest right now I'm pretty sure it's called pride. Ah yeah I know it's yeah, it's very. It's very strange. It's very strange. But yeah. 15:13.33 Griffin Fox Oh that must be a new one for you pride pride for somebody else. Wow. 15:21.69 Andrew Yeah I that not for myself I don't know hopefully it'll pass but I I really dig how you how you did this because I I'd seen you you know apply to these various places and you have this interest that's a bit specific but the way that you kind of. Duck it all together make it work for you and reaching out and making those connections. It's like that's how it's done man I I hope that other students hear your story in terms of how you ultimately got to Buffalo and also ah know that you applied to a bunch other places you got denied a bunch of other places. Stayed in it. You know and you ultimately found a place that to me sounds about as close to perfect as you can get you know for your interest. So I just I think you just played that game exactly right? My friend and you know I hope. Other students can kind of again take from this It's like you don't just apply to 2 places and when you hear no go oh well I guess I'll walk go away. You know you you didn't and it worked out. Fantastic. 16:31.98 Griffin Fox Well thank you I Think the best thing for any students or emerging professionals listening whether it be in Cr M or Academia or any other if there are any other facets of archeology you can make money off of um, for what it. 16:46.22 Andrew Um, yeah. 16:47.36 archpodnet Podcasting. 16:48.63 Griffin Fox True for podcast. Yeah for for whatever you're trying to do the best thing you can do is just reach out to people and just see what's out there even if it isn't your top pick or whatever because anything can eventually snowball into something else or even just having. Having experience under your belt which so many of us don't unfortunately just gives you such an edge so just play keep an eye out even if it isn't your top pick just or even if you're if it seems intimidating just reach out and find something. 17:14.38 archpodnet Ah. 17:23.40 Griffin Fox And for me at least it all worked out. 17:23.86 Andrew Right? No I think that's that's great. My own story's very similar to that I I was like riverside what there's a school out there. You know and it it's very similar So I just I think that a lot of us have that same story. So anyway, good for you man. 17:24.97 archpodnet Nice. 17:39.94 Griffin Fox Thank you. 17:40.30 archpodnet Um, all right? Well that sounds like a good place to take a break and we'll come back on the other side and wrap this up back in a minute.