00:00.00 archpodnet All right welcome to the show. Everybody joining me today is bill in California Andrew again in California and other heather just basically across the street from Andrewid California 00:05.28 Bill White So good morning. Everybody. 00:09.25 Andrew Has it going everybody. 00:15.85 Heather Um. 00:17.80 Andrew So. 00:19.12 Heather Um, hi everyone. 00:19.96 archpodnet Fish all right? and then we've got doug over in Scotland it's full house today. 00:27.70 Doug She's how I always like the non-caformian person these days I know man like do you guys remember when the when the podcast we like used to cover like all of America across all the time zones and. 00:29.87 archpodnet Even I'm in California right now. 00:35.50 Heather Um. 00:38.23 archpodnet I Know well and this this is why I started saying where everybody is is calling in from but now I might just have to stop it to be honest with you because it's. 00:44.76 Doug And now. 00:44.91 Heather Um, Canada Yeah, um. 00:46.26 Bill White Yep. 00:53.92 archpodnet It's like all the same every time and we we don't have a lot of spread anymore. So and until I leave California then there will least be 3 of us Doug you me in California so we'll see it is we'll have to wait until like. 01:04.14 Bill White Ah, hey it's a big state right. 01:09.84 archpodnet Until like you know Andrews often in Belize recording from there and and bill's down in the the caribbean somewhere and then you know Heather's off in another state doing a project or something then it'll be more interesting so we'll we'll wait for that. So all right? Well speaking of yeah. 01:18.64 Bill White Yeah, yeah, well and also you were saying you were saying that Heather's right across the street from Andrew that could be a 45 minute drive in California you could you can see where you want to go and it just takes you an hour to get your car to it. Yeah. 01:28.96 archpodnet Yeah, exactly yeah I know I'm probably I haven't looked at the map but I'm probably less than like seventy miles from you guys right now but it would probably take 2 hours to get there. Yeah. 01:29.80 Andrew Yeah, yeah, right walk now. 01:29.63 Heather Um, yeah, it's easier to walk. It's easier to walk. 01:37.86 Bill White Yeah. 01:42.23 Andrew Right? Oh yeah. 01:43.23 Bill White Yeah, it's probably it's probably faster for all of us to get to Scotland and to get across the street. 01:48.67 Heather The number of everything. 01:50.43 archpodnet Ah, it's probably true. Yeah, all right? Well you know speaking of driving a lot and being away from home a lot. Let's talk about burnout in archeology that's going to be the topic today. It was my topic choice today and. Check down at the show notes we're going to have some resources down there for you to take a look at some of the stuff that a few members of the podcast have put together and I figured we would talk about this because not only this is this a topic where if you're listening to this, you know in the future and you're running through a back catalog or you're looking for something in particular and you just happen to find this episode. It's still going to be. Timely I think and then also if you're listening to this in real time. It's the middle of well it's the middle of may as this is coming out to to 2023 and for a lot of people this is when the field season really starts to ramp up for a lot of people. It already has right? It's already in full swing. But even if. You know, just looking at the entire United States and and probably Canada it should be just about everywhere starting to come into full swing right now. Especially some of those places that are coming out of a ah deep snowpack over the winter in like California and some other places where. You know the the winter has just been hanging on and you can't do anything I have a friend that ended up having to take a completely different job from a company. He's worked for for like 5 years because almost all of their contracts are in places that are completely under snow and they just they just haven't been able to do anything for the last like five months 03:13.55 archpodnet It's been ah, totally rough. So but even places like that are starting to thaw out and and people are starting to get into it so because of that as heather can probably attest to I'm sure there are lots of contracts that are supposed to be done yesterday and the contractor and and client wants them done now. Yeah always and ah. 03:32.43 Heather Um, on away. Ah. 03:32.96 archpodnet And that means people are going to be in the field in the field in the field and that can really put a strain on you. So maybe we'll start with you Heather I'm just curious as to you know when you guys have your well you have full-time employees that you you manage and they may get full the full resources of your company as far as. You know, maybe even mental health and and things like that if they want it but you're um, as needed people. You know sometimes it can be really rough on them because they don't necessarily always get the full. The full resources of the company and it's just like Bam Bam bam bam bam project after project if you like when you keep them around. 04:04.22 Heather Um, I know. 04:08.36 archpodnet There's very little break and very little time to even take a vacation if you were to request one because there's just no real time for that. So how do you? How do you address that with like your as needed employees I'm just curious. 04:19.72 Heather Well I mean for I've been a like a proponent of of ah all of our well we have ah a really extensive wellness program. Um a lot. You mean you could probably spend 20 hours a week. On wellness programs that we have with our company. Um, and so it's that extensive. So the moist proponent in extending that invitation to all of our as media employees. So emails do go out to our our as need as well to take advantage and it is paid. Um, these. 04:40.20 archpodnet As. 04:46.54 archpodnet And. 04:54.69 Heather You know wellness programs that we have we have even have like yoga over over Zoom and things like that. Obviously there's some has to be some. You know if you're working in the field you can't do it right? But we do have a lot of recorded um sessions that that can be you know looked at. 04:54.88 archpodnet That's cool. 04:58.99 archpodnet Me. 05:13.44 Heather Later Um, when they are in the hotel room or whatever. Um, so that's one I don't think everybody connects in that way I I don't have the time to do that and when I I I always like I always like look at the your my colleagues and I were like who has time to go to these. 05:18.19 archpodnet Um, minute. 05:32.88 Heather Wellness things but some people do and you know what people ah I shouldn't laugh about it because I'm not I'm a tear I'm terrible at taking the personal time to allow myself to to have ah know some balance in my life I'm not good at that. But um. 05:47.17 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:51.31 Heather I think that that that's 1 thing for as needed specifically and I I don't know are we talking just about as needed because I'll tell you the burnout is significant in the field when you are physically working right all time but I'll tell you like going nonstop with. You know every single day of the year writing and managing and I mean burnout real thing for for other aspects right? but we could probably spend a whole time just on on the field aspect of burnout so get. 06:12.61 archpodnet Yeah, oh yeah. 06:22.77 archpodnet Well I was I was only mentioning as needed for your company because because I know you guys have good problems for your faults are good solutions for your full time employees and I I wasn't sure if that if that extended to the as needed. Yeah, but yeah. 06:28.49 Heather Okay. Yeah here it over it does veryo could say the other thing that I do is is I really do try to connect with our regular as needed folks and if they I don't there's no shame whatsoever. Somebody says I need some time. We really do work around the as needed folks. There are people that we understand what I can think of 1 in particular right now. She's very good and when she's able to work. We pour her work when she can't work. She hasn't work I mean we really do work around her lifestyle. 06:51.31 archpodnet Um. 07:07.98 Heather And I try to do I try to do that The best that I can. Yeah. 07:09.90 archpodnet Okay, Bill. 07:13.10 Bill White I Yeah I'm glad that you said something about not being good at take care of your own self because those systems are really as good as the people who you know if you take advantage of them and that was the other thing that I ah I'm glad you mentioned that the burnout is real because. 07:21.00 Heather Yeah. 07:31.50 Bill White A lot of us are actually going into that we're going into the field season already crispy from what just happened over the last winter and I think that with all the shortage of folks and you know how much people are you know, kind of overworking or double working at all the different stuff that everyone's doing. 07:35.20 Heather Then. 07:51.20 Bill White I think that you know we may be seeing a year where a lot of people are actually already coming in burn now and I don't I mean this the show's coming out a good time. But I mean definitely the burnout is ah is very real in my life and I'm supposed to go out in the field and handle all this other stuff that I'm supposed to do so. Ah. 07:54.36 archpodnet A. 08:06.38 archpodnet Yeah. 08:08.68 Bill White I Guess maybe some tips on how to handle that and. 08:10.82 archpodnet Yeah, indeed heather. 08:13.36 Heather Yeah I'll just say something real quick I Really I wish and maybe this is another topic but I wish that there was some way we could connect those people that really do want to work and companies because I'll tell you there's a lot of people are saying. There's no work out there yet when we contact people they're very picky about what they want to do. 08:19.33 archpodnet Goodness. 08:33.31 Heather And they're like no but I don't want to do it if it's this and I don't want to do it if it's that and you know I teach my kids that and it's reality life is about doing 70% of what you don't want to do that's I'm not talking about like misery or. 08:34.10 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:51.54 Heather Stuff that you know like ethically you don't want to do I'm talking about like stuff that that's not fun. It's boring. Life's about doing 70% you don't want to do in order to do the 30% you do and that's life and so I think sometimes I do hear that I hear people are like well you know I'm a little picky on what? what. 08:57.72 archpodnet That's part of the job. Have none. 09:11.11 Heather Ah, job. Do you have as soon as we calm or the you know and these are not the ass we work on a regular basis but you call and they're like um well what kind of job is it like what? what would I be doing like it's a job though. It's a job so until you identify yourself. 09:21.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 09:29.29 Heather And make yourself known as having a certain set of skill set that you're really valuable in you got to take the work that comes your way. Yeah. 09:36.68 archpodnet Um, and that's that's a good point too and I want to address something both you guys said you know about what we're talking about right now because I am I think in this first segment. It is really good to talk about you know again like what both of you said is the the job as a whole right? and and. Coming off of the the winter that we've had and coming into a summer and in in potentially a very busy summer especially in places like California and and heavy development areas. But yeah in futures in the next segment and maybe the one after that I do want to get into. Okay, you. You're you're in the situation that you're in how can you do these little micro improvements to you know to help with your burnout while you're out in the field and while you're doing these different things. But the first thing to try to solve is yeah, try to try to balance how much work you're doing the type of work that you're doing and heather a quick comment on your seventy thirty theory I I'm gonna say I'm going to make the assumption that you're talking about your actual workday like 70% of your workday is something you may not like doing and 30% is the stuff that you do like doing and that's that I could probably get around but not if it's like your entire day and your whole life because I got to say some a lot of people stick around in jobs that they don't like. 10:40.99 Heather Um, it. 10:46.85 archpodnet At all like the whole entire job is crappy and that will prevent burnout I mean really fast, right? Especially if you feel like yeah, go ahead. 10:51.20 Heather Um, but it might find yeah it depends on what you call crappy right? We're I'm not talking about I'm I'm not talking about you know work. That's very unsatisfying, whatever. But. There's some things like not everything is going to be you know butterflies and bunnies. You know you're you're going to have things that are not so much fun and you're going to get into a job and you're goingnna think oh wait a minute I thought this was going to be more fun and and it's not that there's full of there's lots of. 11:17.80 archpodnet To him. 11:22.32 Heather You know, form writing and things like that you have to do those things in order to do the fun stuff. That's just the way it is but you know I I Just the point I made with that I'll make it so we can move on is that you know. 11:26.13 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:34.96 Heather People not willing to do certain work is overloading I see it all all over the place. It's overloading people that are willing to work and those people are the ones that are getting burned out the ones that are like Johnny on the spot I'll do whatever you need. Those are the ones that are getting burned out because we need them and others are not willing to work. 11:51.35 archpodnet Need Yeah, all right doug. 11:54.32 Heather But anyway, yeah. 11:59.60 Doug And um, yeah I would ah advise the the opposite direction and this is actually coming from sort of a project management sort of point of view as well in that like um. 12:15.95 Doug Like 80% of your grief probably comes from like you know it's the eighty twenty rule about 8% of your grief comes from about like 20% of your clients and you you should drop those those clients and I think it's actually probably a good thing. Obviously how they it'll be annoying from your point of view. 12:20.99 archpodnet Um, and um. 12:33.41 Doug But possibly what's keeping people like from burning out is actually being a bit more picky and it would probably be good if people were and then also in a sense being able to walk away for a little while like. Maybe go do a different job for six months or something and recharge your batteries. Um, you know I don't know ah do one of those um those jobs they always advertise for like be a cruise archeologist. You know, go on a cruise and give lectures or something like that um that doesn't 12:54.74 archpodnet Nana. 13:05.66 archpodnet Oh past preservers just have one of those come out and yeah, yeah. 13:11.25 Doug Yeah, well, that's that's what I'm thinking of is but they've always they've always had those things but like obviously it doesn't pay well and there's things like that and it's um, but you know I actually think that like being a bit selective in the in the work you do can really help you keep from burning out. 13:28.97 archpodnet Yeah. 13:30.75 Doug Um, and and I think that I think that's a problem that goes all the way not just from like individuals but also like all the way to the sorry I shouldn't say it's all individuals not just from text but all the way to the top where you get you burnout of like the senior people because they won't say no to certain projects. Um, and they just keep going I think um, no would be like sorry I mean to solve. Everyone's problems but like just say no ah would probably help with a lot of burnout and. 13:48.73 archpodnet You know. 13:58.32 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, I hear you yeah bill. 14:01.20 Bill White I yeah, ah, yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree with Doug like that's my only mechanism is just to basically start with no for everything just start at no for every single thing and make them convince. You. This is something that wants to happen and I think this is. You know the the problem with Crm because ah, just in general like I'm seeing this overall of you know the the students that are going through right now. They're absolutely unwilling at all to do stuff that doesn't you know align with. Any kind of mission if they don't see anything bigger going on with it then they're they're just going to walk away from it or they'll treat it like they do every single other thing like you know it's just something to use toss it the garbage when you're done or you know conserve cut back. Get the cheapest one. It doesn't really matter right? So you know there's there's. Services and other items that they don't value and the stuff that they do value. They'll go full on in and work their butts off and stay up all night. You know that's that's what's motivating you know the top students from finishing college. That's what's keeping them moving forward because they could see that there's something bigger in their future that you know. Dovetails with this effort this huge effort they're doing for college and so that's the that's the big thing you know if if you can't convince me that this is worthwhile that I'm just going to stay at no and I used to say like no thank you and now I just say no so sometimes the response is just no. 15:29.70 Bill White And that's what ends up happening with you know, a lot of students who are trying to get into cultural resources. There's never really a statement on what the value and why they would even want to do this for their future and that's why they're just kind of like Nah. That's all right I'll just do something else like I'll just do. Ah, job that I don't really care about whatsoever. Job hop exactly every 24 buds just like I'm supposed to because that's how I move forward because I don't really care at all about why employment if you don't care about cultural Resources. You're not going to do it and so that's the key piece that's missing right. 15:58.62 Heather A. 16:02.52 archpodnet All right? Heather Do you have a quick comment or should we hold off before the other side. Okay, let me ah, erase that then all right Thanks for that bill. 16:05.22 Heather Being whole life. 16:12.69 archpodnet We're going to continue talking about this of course and and probably take it in a couple of other directions in the next segments so stand by and listen to these words from our hopefully we have sponsors and advertisers in there because you know we don't want to do this for free and we want to keep it free for you guys. But take a look down at your devices at the links and anything else that we have down there in the show notes because there's a lot of good stuff there back in a minute.