00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the serm archeology podcast episode 2 64 and we're talking about burnout and this is the final segment so we got to wrap it all up today right now. So one of the things I wanted to to discuss. Well first off, we were talking about you know saying no to certain jobs and things like that in the very first segment but I did want to. Mentioned something I was thinking about that my wife and I actually did because we were we were getting burned out working in the southeast I got to tell you and the job was okay that the hours were okay, we were working with a company that was basically had us Monday through Friday because everywhere we would go was not that far away so we didn't have to do like 10 on 4 off, but we did do. Monday through Friday usually in a hotel room a few hours away something like that just because obviously it's you know better for the field work that way and that wasn't bad. It was actually pretty tame. You know 8 hour days including the drive time and you know all that was okay, but the archeology was just sometimes it was really great. Like ah never forget this one project where you'd literally just dig a shovel test. It was all like 1 strat so you put the whole thing in your screen and then lift up your screen and it was just a pile of ceramics like almost every single time. It was just super cool I actually got almost old finding ceramics because we found so many I mean Tens of thousands ofureds across like 2500 shovel tests and it was ridiculous. But then a lot of times it was just hacking through the Georgia South Carolina North Carolina brambles in the summertime when they're nice and green and and hard to cut through and then they just. 01:29.64 archpodnet They they cut you anyway I still have scars over all of my arms from those stupid projects and then on top of that you don't find anything right? You're just in these areas where you're just struggling for an hour to get to your next shovel test 30 minutes away and then you dig it and there's nothing there and it's like why am I doing this to my life right now and then. 01:45.46 Heather Um, no. 01:47.90 archpodnet And there's ticks and and mosquitoes the size of helicopters and snakes and it's just like what are we doing here and so we made the very conscious decision to pull up stakes and basically we we tried to get jobs in the west but nobody would hire us because we didn't have the experience in the west and we didn't really know. You know about moving around so we decided we we got rid of our apartment. We got rid of both of our vehicles and bought a Toyota foreerunner because we we both had separate vehicles at the time and basically puts all our stuff in storage and and and as much as we could in the forerunner for living in a hotel and camping and we shovelbumed our way across the United States for about a year until we made it over to Nevada and Nevada is where we we really enjoyed being and we spent a decade in Nevada after that you know ended up going and getting all our stuff and bringing it back to Nevada and and stayed out here and that that dramatically improved our. I think just our psyche and our well-being because for us in particular, we liked that area better and it was just it was just better for us because your your worst day in Nevada I've always said on survey where you don't find anything is just a hike in the beautiful high desert. You know you might not find anything that day but it's just really cool areas that you're in. 02:57.50 Bill White Yeah. 03:00.24 archpodnet And it was. It was super fun. So um, so that can be 1 way to to help prevent burnout is just try to work in another region I know that's not possible for a lot of people but try to go somewhere else bill you've worked over the place. 03:12.35 Bill White Ah I I can yeah I can I can agree I worked in Virginia for a while and at least it was Northern Virginia so it was close to DC and all that stuff but it was still Virginia there's something that about it be 103 in Arizona versus 103 in Virginia who. 03:20.33 archpodnet Yeah. 03:28.54 archpodnet Ah, yeah, oh. 03:30.13 Bill White You know, just being able to see humidity underneath the streetlights because it's just so wet and you get out of the shower you dry off and you're wet and then your clothes are wet that you put on like yeah I know yeah. 03:36.59 archpodnet You need a machete just to you need a machete just to cut through the air in Virginia in the summertime. 03:44.65 Bill White Yeah, so so I could definitely see that too and I could also say you know there's ah like I was just mentioning about go down a rabbit hole on one topic and learning a lot about it. You know there's also something to be said about learning about a whole different time period or different kinds of artifacts like if you spent all your time learning about lithicx. Yeah, go ahead and learn about metal. 03:58.62 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:04.57 Bill White It's one of the one things that no one ever wants to learn about ah but if you think about it. There's more artifacts made out of metal than were ever created that are still around. You know than you know, ah formal projectile points or actual tools right? So learning about these different kinds of pieces of metal and different car parts other different kinds of ceramics. You know. 04:12.20 archpodnet M. 04:23.81 Bill White Paper all different kinds of maps I mean there's a whole bunch of different stuff that you could learn about that. You might find really interesting and that also kind of breaks through the burnout because you know if you're standing there monitoring all day but you know if you if you spent some time learning about the map of what stores used to be there and you know maybe what used to be there or different. 04:31.30 archpodnet You know? yeah. 04:43.51 Bill White Tribes and groups that used to live in that area. You know that some of that stuff could kind of cut through while you're just standing there waiting. You know you're hoping that you'll find something that you just read about. 04:50.00 archpodnet Yeah, it's interesting. You say that because I used my I used my blog kind of for that when I started writing the blog because my first few years in in archeology I did not like historics at all right I was just never It's not that I didn't like historics I just wasn't into. Archeology that was that recent you know what? I mean I first got I first got interested in this old field through paleoanthropology. So I'm looking at stuff that's hundreds of thousands and and millions of years old right and I went to Africa for a field school in old vi gorge I mean I was just way into paleo and when i. Resigned myself to crm I was really more interested in prehistoric and and and really old stuff and the you know the original you know who got here first type questions and then you know after I'd started my blog and we were in certain areas, especially Nevada Nevada brought this out too because there's a lot of historic mining and ranching and stuff like that in Nevada that you end up finding and. Um I would deep dive like I mean I have a whole blog post on dimensional lumber right? like I had no idea that you know wood of different sizes could actually give you ah a sense of age and I learned about the international lumber congress of the 1930 s you know it's like what the hell is that and. 05:44.63 Bill White Yeah. 05:57.70 archpodnet And then deep diving like different can types and ceramics and glass and and when you get down to it. It is incredibly interesting how you can you can almost date down to the year that a site was probably you know like something was probably dumped there or used with with historics and it's just that became fascinating to me and it's all because. 06:09.69 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 06:14.90 Heather Um, a s. 06:16.75 archpodnet I Had the downtime in the hotel rooms in the evening to kind of research it and then write about it. 06:19.41 Bill White Yeah, yeah, and also you know the advertisements are directly connected to all that stuff right? So that Lumber Congress actually had a call for people and they have they're connected to all these other you know, lumber ads and so you start to see. 06:21.77 Heather Um, you know. 06:23.21 archpodnet I. 06:29.37 archpodnet Yeah. 06:33.97 Bill White You know how are they portrayed lumber in 1935 and you know ah Washington or in ah Nevada like how are they selling it. What are they telling people to take about the same thing with you know all these other different kinds of things ah different houses right? So it's made with wood that's from Oregon well why is the oregon wood better. Okay, let's go down that rabbit hole. Let's figure out more about. 06:37.83 archpodnet Sure. 06:51.39 archpodnet A. 06:54.20 Bill White Oregon and and what what role they were in the lubber congress and you start to learn all this different stuff that once again, you you wouldn't necessarily go down that pathway unless you kind of took the time to turn off social media and it just focus on something else. 07:07.19 archpodnet Yeah, for sure for sure. Heather. 07:10.50 Heather You know? so I'm going to say something and might be unhealthy but help people with burnout and trying to get away from it. It's not like you know drugs something is I drug. 07:14.59 Andrew Oh no. 07:20.70 Bill White I Ah O U o. 07:24.75 archpodnet Drugs Drugs isn't the answer. It's just going to say that. 07:29.37 Heather Right? That call it. It's my kind of drug right? It is but is yeah a. 07:29.45 Bill White Ah I was going to say I don't oh I don't know some of us need them to make it depends on the drive. 07:35.74 Doug We are we talking deep fried butter or something like this is this where we're going. Yeah. 07:40.91 Bill White I Really hope we go that way. 07:45.49 Heather But I'm about to say it's go be totally anti-colimatic now that I set it up that night but anyway from the idea I people are like sometimes like well I want to do you hear this all the time I want do a hobby is going to pay me something right? So that everything that you're saying really does it. 07:47.20 Bill White Oh. 07:58.84 archpodnet Or. 08:04.15 Heather Reminds me that there's 1 aspect that I'm passionate about with reports and that is making sure that background sections are not just boilerplate throwed in there really has nothing to do with the area is just a regional overview right? but that really does kind of get into the nitty gritty of the area because otherwise. 08:14.79 archpodnet Um. 08:22.34 Heather What's the purpose of having a background context. You know if it isn't customized to some extent like the first part of it so that leads me to if you enjoy Personally, you know I moved around a little bit. You know throughout my young adulthood and then up until now. 08:22.50 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:41.31 Heather I've moved a lot and one way I love a sense of home I loved where I grew up in Chicago it was hard for me to leave and so for me to understand and get into living in a certain place I would learn about this history and. That's something that I really enjoy doing and I've carried that over and so if that is something that you want to do and you want to do that deep dive quote unquote on an area that you're working in. You're there for a few months the 1 thing that is always difficult to do at the end. It's the last thing I'm like oh my god. Forgot to customize the background context and the reports due today. So if that's something you enjoy doing talk to your manager talk talk to the crew supervisor whoever it is that you're working for it say hey listen I like doing research. Can I do the local history background context for this and so while you're working in the fields that will also help you understand the area better and it's a ah way of you getting paid because I'm telling you that um it's hard. It is really the last thing that people think about, but it is important. It's very important to a report to understand the local history. So and a lot of times you don't have that. That's not boiler plate that you have and especially it's not worth a plate you have for that piece of property so that might be a way that you could have a little fun. 09:52.95 archpodnet Yeah. 10:03.27 archpodnet Ah. 10:06.62 Heather It with research kind of outside just understand the area. Plus you get paid for it. So. 10:09.27 archpodnet Yeah, indeed Doug. 10:14.37 Doug So so we're going to spend the last ten minutes talking about deep frying because that's how we should do it? Ah um, actually yeah well I'll just say is so burnout. 10:20.69 archpodnet Ah, sure. 10:21.75 Heather Um, and he. 10:29.35 Doug I mean it probably hasn't been classified yet. But you're talking about pretty much ah, a mental health issue. Um, and that it's also going to be very difficult and a lot of overlap between burnout and depression. Um I would say. If people are experiencing burnout. Um, it can be really hard to get out of it and I would definitely recommend if you can get any sort of mental health therapy or um, even just being able to get to to be able to talk to someone I think it would. It would kind of help because ah I would say like for most people one get professional help but 2 is is like get someone you can talk to who can ask you really so simple. Um and very obvious questions because a lot of people when they get in burnout they don't. Have a way of getting out like it's like um, a lot of them just basically get stuck in a rut. Um, because you know there's a big overlap with depression and it helps to have someone be like ask like really dumb questions that you and challenge you on those questions because we will just say it's that like not. Possible. You can't do that you can't do this because I actually see I I mean there is a lot of burnout. Definitely at the entry level and as we've all talked about like I'm not sure. There's anyone who really likes working in a place where the the driest you feel is when you're in the shower. 11:44.48 archpodnet E. 12:01.76 Doug Um, and that that's the most refreshing you feel? um um I couldn't I can't do humidity. But um, there there is thats or burnout. But you you end up with like a lot of people at sort of the top or middle management levels who get really burned out and don't have a way of figuring out how to. Change their circumstances and you really need someone there to be able to help you and ask those simple questions you'll be people like you'll see like these business people you know have a company to be like well you know I have to keep working those 80 hours those 80 hours and then I just need to make it for like another like 10 years and then someone else can take over and the the very obvious answer to that is like sell and they'll be like no no I have to support people have to do all this all that stuff and it's like do you have to really I think you need to get someone who can ask you those questions like do you really need to do this. Is it absolutely a necessity and help you sort of get out of those um mental health blocks that come with burnout. 13:02.44 archpodnet You know. 13:09.17 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely now there's a lot of stuff that ah can cause burnout too. Of course right? People's own circumstances. For example, you never know what somebody's going through and that's something important to remember as crew chiefs and project managers and field directors when you're dealing with people that you know they may come to work with a. A little attitude sometimes especially on day nine of a ten day or something like that and or even day four of a five day but on a three month project maybe there's just you know some stuff going on and it's helpful to I don't know just be cognizant of that and maybe even take them aside and say hey is there anything I can help you with you know you want to get into it too much but say is there anything I can. You know, can you want a day off, you know, something like that is there anything we can do here to you know help you ah get back in the game so to speak. Everybody's not going to be on every single day but you know just help you get back? heather. 13:59.14 Heather Yeah I would just say um that the 1 thing that is important with burnout and and you know I've I've gone through that too where you're thinking what in the world am I doing that's going to help that's helping this world. You know and. I think that it's an then innate in all of us to have some kind of spiritual food and whatever that spiritual food is for for you personally. But I think being it. What's that those are right right? Um, and you i. 14:25.91 archpodnet Lasagna lasagna go ahead. Ah. 14:33.62 Heather I'm not getting weird here I'm just I'm just saying that like we have there's something in all of us humans to have something and whatever that is for you. Um, or if you don't have it finding something that allows you to just kind of feed your soul. Um, it doesn't have to just information. It can be something like Meditation. It's I think where you're relaxing your brain and just allowing you to just get centered without sounding weird whatever that is for you I do think that that's something that sometimes. 14:49.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:07.62 Heather In this day and age and we're we're getting so cynical um about life and so we're not allowing ourselves to be spiritual beings and I really think that you know that's an important part of life and so I think. 15:10.94 archpodnet Here. 15:20.90 archpodnet Yeah. 15:23.76 Heather 1 way of of making sure that you don't get burned out is allowing yourself sometime to be spiritual and I see Doug's comments no I'm not eating brownie special kind of brownies right now be very. 15:36.40 Doug Um, yeah I'd say special. It was just brownies I was debating cookies I was going to go cookies but you know it works but actually it works both ways like honestly I have um just to go on that like I know we're saying I don't think we can advocate for. 15:37.36 archpodnet He his special brownies. Ah just brownies. 15:42.38 Heather I. 15:54.92 Doug Psychedelic drugs on a podcast but I do have people I know who they do do sort of religious things where like if they're a big point in their life. They go and drop some mushrooms. Um for decision making I think there's different ways of people to be spiritual. Um, or they go to church I mean that's quite a bit of. 15:58.56 Bill White We we. 16:07.56 Heather Um, um. 16:12.82 Heather Catholic You know I will say I and in it's fun because my team were so supportive I was so I would burn out I still am a little but I was not. 16:14.54 Doug Different ways of doing it. 16:14.92 archpodnet M. 16:28.23 Heather I was running around my brain was spinning all the time and I couldn't focus and I finally decided my my husband's a very he is a He's a good Catholic boy he goes mass every day and that's a Catholic that's a catholic thing. It's not not ever and I grew up protestant. But anyway I started to say ok you know. 16:43.88 archpodnet Um. 16:48.18 Heather I'm going to stop my day at five o'clock and I'm going go to go to mass and evening masses are usually pretty quick. They're 20 minutes or 30 minutes and so I did that and it was it was good because it gave me a stop in my day to say I'm not working past this time sometimes I I'm so I still work at night. But it still gave me a break in my day otherwise especially with covid the way everything is kind of mushed together and you're working at all different hours of the day to have that 1 time where you stop. It's a hard stop right? then in order to do this one thing every day. It was very methodical and very. You know routine. It definitely helped me um I'm not always good about doing it but that that was my thing and you know everybody has their own thing but I I highly suggested I think I think it that it did help me a lot. 17:34.98 archpodnet Okay, this has all been really great stuff and really quick comment on the the food thing heather I totally agree that goes back to what Bill was saying with that you know hey have a thing where you look at the best tacos in a town which is cool but 1 of the things for me is I love breakfast right? and we spent. My wife and I have been traveling for It's coming up on 3 years here in June constantly like we haven't been to a home because we sold our house right? We spent some time at family occasionally. But we've been essentially on the road for 3 years solid and while we're. We're not doing field work necessarily doing that we are working the whole time we're doing that and it's kind of a similar situation and 1 of the things that regardless of the town that we're in that kind of brings me back is is having a good breakfast at ah at a nice little diner or cafe or something like that on the weekend right? Can't do it every day of course. But. Just like on the weekend or something on a Sunday or a Saturday that kind of thing is this nice to do which made Mexico Really tough Mexico I don't really like mexican breakfast all that much and there weren't too many places that had well there wasn't any in the town that we were in that had like ah what I would consider like an american style breakfast. So I was actually that was actually a little disappointing for me. Um, but to be honest. That's one of the things so that we look forward to going in different places but I would also say just as we're closing out this podcast. You know, first off, if you got any ideas that will help wherever you see this posted maybe leave something in the comments and I'll just leave a couple other tips they're they're actually one of the resources I put down which is in my book which is kind of like customizing your hotel room. 19:03.41 archpodnet You know if you have to live in a hotel room Sometimes they can feel very hotely right? Well bring your own little things to put up bring up ah bring a picture or bring. Ah, you know some little some little trinkets or something you keep with you and just little little touches that make the room feel like yours and in some cases even maybe rearrange the furniture. But. 19:05.79 Heather Are. 19:21.67 archpodnet Take a picture before you do that and put it back before you're done Sometimes it's not possible because it's all nailed to the floor of the wall but you know otherwise move things or move things around. You know, don't go out to eat every night. Yeah, well true, but some. 19:24.79 Heather Um, ah try stay away hotels like that though hotels that have. 19:37.30 archpodnet But sometimes though but like if you're working in small town Nevada. There's usually like only 1 or 2 choices and you get what you get so um, but anyway yeah, bring those little touches and you know just try to. 19:38.87 Heather Um, yeah through through. 19:50.10 archpodnet Try to have a normal evening and don't see it as a don't see every project as either like vacation or a field school or or something that's not your normal job.. That's what allow you new people in the field do is and including myself. You know you you end up seeing every project as you see different people different place different hotel room. You usually associate hotel rooms with vacation or travel. Not with work and that's a really hard mind shift to have is to say is to make that switch and then to switch back when you actually are on vacation in a hotel room is like it's really weird to say that but everybody who's done fieldwork knows exactly what I'm talking about. So anyway, there's a lot more. We could talk about and. Um, you know, maybe we'll bring this up again in the future. But I think we'll leave it right there again look at the resources in the show notes check out our sponsors in the show notes as well. If There's any there I know there's some for this episode. So Check those out some of those could actually help with burnout now that I'm saying that aloud Um, and from that we will. 20:44.65 Doug So Goodbye All you have to you have to this is our contract. That's a social contract. 20:45.43 archpodnet So you guys next time I'm not I'm not keeping it doug I'm not keeping it. You did that last week. 20:54.10 Bill White Ah, ah. 20:57.17 archpodnet Ah, man ah all right? So let me do the outro the real outro all right here we go thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye doug. 21:04.66 Heather Um, you know. 21:14.24 Bill White Goodbye I'm not dug though. 21:16.81 Andrew See you guys next time. 21:16.97 Heather Um I think. 21:17.62 archpodnet Ah, and. 21:21.79 Doug Well I guess if if if I have to do an outro I'm just going to add like a addendum to last week's podcast. We were asked about like a final 1 line myth. Um I really I missed a beat and I should have said like you know there's the myth that ai is going to take our ah our jobs I should throw that in there. So that's gonna how I'm ah end this podcast but just just end that comment and on the end there. That's that's another myth that we missed. Ah Chris. 21:45.54 archpodnet Okay, let's ah, that's a do it. It's also a myth that Doug knows how to end a podcast. So with that we will see you guys next week 21:49.36 Andrew And. 21:52.35 Bill White Um, ah.