00:00.00 archpodnet All right welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is Heather in her sailboat in California and bill in his office also in California. So for those listening to the audio podcast which is probably 99% of you. We started about thirty days ago 00:05.91 Heather Hello both. 00:12.72 Bill White Yep I'm back. 00:19.67 archpodnet Putting everything on Youtube even if it was just audio and this is the first time in I don't even know how long that we've recorded the cr mark podcast with the video turned on. So if you like to see our our crazy faces that I mean I have a face for podcasting these guys look great, but. If you want to see our Youtube faces then head over to archeology podcast network on Youtube and check it out. It's just 1 more way to consume what we're doing here. It's it's not really anything special. We're just doing this. Oh and also it's completely unedited so any mistakes we make stay over there because. While I'm putting it on Youtube that's an extra like couple hours per show and I just don't have time to edit it. That's just the processing of everything and getting it up there. So at some point we'll be editing the Youtube video as well. But until you know more of you subscribe to the podcast network. Yeah, exactly. So. 01:04.45 Heather No pressure on us to be completely different podcast now Chris but. 01:11.83 archpodnet I know I know so all right? Well so let's get to the topic at hand. So I've got a friend. Um, who's doing some work with a yeah, relatively new company to him and he asked me some questions about workers comp. Um, just some some relatively general questions but also some questions related to a situation. He was dealing with now. 01:13.95 Bill White Ah. 01:30.90 archpodnet It's all pretty straightforward I mean a lot of us probably have had some kind of even minor injury at work I I slipped on some barbed wire climbing over a fence and and sliced open my leg and got puncture wounds on both of my um sides of my hands and and things like that and I had to go get a drug test. Um, when I was getting fixed up and. Because that's part of workers comp you have to do it within like 24 or 48 hours at least in Nevada and and you had to fill out special paperwork and then they also just like dealt with the whole the whole medical thing. But what if you have an issue that's ah that you're not. You know you can't necessarily prove 100% that happened at work and and my point is like like this friend of mine. He's relatively fit. You know, takes care of himself. He's young and and had no problems and now he's out in the field on ah on a really strenuous project. 02:09.50 Bill White A. 02:23.25 archpodnet Um, more strenuous so than he's done recently. He's been doing a lot of monitoring so he's you know now on this really strenuous field project and was starting to get a lot of hip pain and just feeling this massive pain in his hip and he wanted to go to the doctor and he told his field director about it immediately when he really started to notice it. 02:33.13 Bill White Um, wow. 02:38.53 archpodnet But it was a kind of thing that kind of came on gradually that you know you just kind of ignore it. You think it's going to go away. You're just sore but you know after a weekend. It's still there. You come back and it's just like you can't walk and how I would just I just wanted to have a chat because we're we're not a legal podcast. We're not going to give you any legal advice you know every state is different and now they deal with stuff. 02:49.69 Heather Um. 02:54.70 Heather That. 02:58.43 archpodnet But I just want to talk to you guys and see what would you do in that situation. You know he he wanted to know what his chain of responsibility is basically is telling his field director as soon as he realizes something's going on enough to kind of cover him or should he get something in writing from Hr or what if there is no Hr you're a smaller company. 03:16.66 Bill White Wow Yeah, there's a lot with that one. 03:17.81 archpodnet You know what? what do you guys? think. 03:23.70 Heather Well yeah, that's it's tough you know I I think um, the 1 thing I think that this brings up is the fear that people have for various reasons about contacting ah hr when it comes to safety and it comes to. 03:37.68 archpodnet Yeah. 03:41.48 Heather Injuries. Um, you know on one side I remember because I remember feeling it is that you know that you if you start and this is not I'm not saying this is a good thing I'm just saying this is a common feeling is that um I'm feeling sore I'm feeling like I'm injured. 04:00.65 archpodnet Yeah. 04:00.98 Heather Um I don't want to be that kind of a weak link in the crew and if I get that reputation of always coming down with an injury or always being sick or you know and so a lot of times I think people do not um, talk about their soreness. They don't talk about. Um, you know injuries that may be coming I mean injuries not all injuries happen. You know in a kid in an it right? It don't happen immediately. I mean it's it can be chronic. It can be ah over time I mean 1 issues back right? I have 2 her 8 exists. It's and and. 04:26.50 archpodnet Dramatically. 04:34.39 Bill White Now. 04:35.52 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:39.81 Heather Did that was that caused by archeology almost well that my hockey background but 1 or the other right as that is that's actually also something that people are thinking ok well from the other side. Ok, you have a herniated disc. What are all these other things that you're doing right? that could have caused the hering aid disc. 04:43.48 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 04:46.97 Bill White Um, yeah. 04:54.73 archpodnet Me. 04:59.73 Heather So it is a real big. Um, it's it's a yeah it's tough it's tough and from the other side there. The 1 thing that I want to talk about when you brought up this this. Um, this topic you know before I was in the position I'm in right now I was always. You know I don't know I kind of bought into this thought that you know Hr or safety if you have a large enough company that when you have an injury and and they're a little red is they're not quite sure if they want to you know if it really is of that level to report or whatever I thought. 05:36.69 archpodnet Name and. 05:36.71 Heather You know to me that just never sat well with me and I didn't understand the true meaning behind that and so no, if there's an injury. Yes, obviously I have to report it I'm talking about like when you have issues that are kind of on the bubble. You're not quite sure. Did it really happen at work you know and so these are questions that aren't number 1 or not even. 05:44.49 Bill White Um, yeah. 05:46.33 archpodnet Yeah. 05:56.35 Heather May not even be the question of the HR person it's the insurance right? There's that are forcing them to ask questions that have nothing to do with them. This is not how they look at things they they maybe want to take care of you in every way you know, but these are questions that are. 05:58.50 Bill White Yeah. 06:01.50 archpodnet M. 06:15.18 Heather Required of them to ask? Um I'll I have a couple other thoughts but I'll I'll let you guys jump in on on your thoughts. 06:17.54 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, bill. What do you think. 06:22.61 Bill White Yeah, sure, Um, you know one of the things that I ah because I know what you were talking about being a tough person and just trying to tough it out right? like that stuff just builds up and so early in my career when I toughed it out now I'm not as tough anymore because stuff is. 06:30.47 Heather Um, me. 06:38.66 Bill White Crooked and broken and you know didn't heal properly right because I actually did keep going when there was pain and so I can recommend from personal experience. Don't do that when it comes to your body like don't do that? Um, the other thing AboutHRTwo that ah. 06:40.73 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 06:41.42 Heather Um, what. 06:49.92 Heather Yes. 06:51.77 archpodnet Um. 06:57.67 Bill White You know my wife's been doing Hr for a very long time and one of the things that she always says is there's never any true answers and the answers always it depends and so this is one of those questions that is you know falls in there right? because we've got insurance. We've got the the liability of the company. We've got your own. 07:02.87 Heather My or. 07:03.60 archpodnet Yeah. 07:15.66 Bill White Personal responsibility for taking care of your own body and reporting things you know as they're happening and then your supervisor So there's a lot of people in there. So it's a really murky situation. So it's difficult to say like you know, did this happen while you were. 07:16.95 Heather F. 07:29.57 Bill White Um, you know out in the field or maybe you you went to a music festival right? or went on ah a walk with someone after work and then you just noticed it then right? So at what point does the hip pain become like where did it originate and then um. 07:34.16 Heather More. 07:45.40 Bill White The hip pain originating is that the response is that the employer's fault right? So once again I'm not ah um, ah, not a legal scholar or you know an hr expert or whatever but it does sound to me like if you if this was happening because you're doing a lot more hiking than you were used to. 07:48.24 Heather Yeah. 08:03.49 Bill White Then it's reasonable to assume that that injury did start at the workplace and so that it kind of is the workplace's um, you know responsibility to make sure that you while you're doing your work tasks. Don't get further injured right now. 08:20.27 Heather Um, yeah. 08:20.72 Bill White The sad reality with a lot of companies is okay well if they're just at home then they don't get injured anymore. So just go home and when your hip doesn't hurt anymore. We'll see if there's any work and that's what every archaeologist is afraid of and that's the reason why we're running out of archaeologists because companies do that rather than. 08:27.34 Heather Um, yes, exactly. 08:33.10 archpodnet Yeah. 08:35.85 Bill White Moving people over or having other tasks that don't involve walking out in the desert all day. The person just has to go and sit at their house and then basically their position's gone because of that. 08:44.70 Heather yeah yeah I think yeah, go ahead. Chris. 08:46.64 archpodnet It's got to be ah, just a comment on that real quick. It's got to be difficult for field technicians that aren't permanent at companies too because what if you're you know you're starting to feel this pain in the last session of a 10 day and and you didn't feel it before that project started. 08:53.95 Bill White If you. 08:56.51 Heather Um. 08:58.64 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 09:01.66 archpodnet But then at the end of the 10 day you're on to another project and you get to this other project and it just gets worse and then you report it immediately. It's like um, you know is is that company even liable for that. You know what is it what if it was in a different state and you were in pain in Florida now you're working in Iowa you know what? I mean. 09:03.63 Bill White Yeah. Air. 09:15.44 Heather You know? yeah I think the 1 thing that people don't talk about which is a reality that people really should be should be talking about and that is. 09:19.22 Bill White Um, yeah. 09:31.63 Heather When you're managing a project and you know the conditions on the project you have to match your crew to your project. Um, you do and you know it's not when it comes to oh well, that's not fair that I can't work on that project. 09:36.47 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 09:37.53 Bill White Yeah. 09:48.70 Bill White Yeah. 09:49.23 Heather Trust me I mean if you have somebody who's really really doing it carefully. Trust me if you were if we hired you anyway and then we put you and you're like literally climbing up in a hundred degree weather you you know you're going to be cursing our name halfway through that project right? So you have to. 10:00.67 Bill White Um, ah. 10:02.96 archpodnet Yeah. 10:07.51 Heather Look at people's capabilities and match the project to the capabilities now not everybody wants to go through that work. Sometimes you're death rate like you just need to get people out there. You're like we put a mirror under the nose and it creates God and say we're put them out there. 10:16.91 archpodnet Yeah. 10:17.56 Bill White Ah. 10:22.78 archpodnet Yeah. 10:26.18 Bill White Ah, yeah. 10:27.60 Heather But you know that it's on it's It's a combination of management being a lot more prepared. Um sometimes a lot of things happen last minute but when you have the luxury of preparation doing that and then also where you have crews that understand. I mean you have to understand your own physical limitations I'm 52 years old and I'm not in the shape that I was in before and I know that there's some projects. There's no way I should be out there. You know. Again you know. 10:45.98 archpodnet Yeah. Yeah. 10:59.49 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 11:02.20 Heather So I think people need to be realistic and I think people need to be understanding of both sides. Yeah. 11:07.47 archpodnet Okay, well I've got something to kick off the next segment with and and we're going to this is going to be a little bit of a shorter show for people because we've all got some extenuating circumstances here today. Um, and it's kind of a makeup show for us anyway because we missed our normal recording times. So let's take a break. 11:07.61 Bill White Yeah. 11:16.67 Bill White Her. 11:22.62 archpodnet Come back on the other side and I'll I'll kick it off a little bit of a story talking exactly what Heather was talking about back in a minute welcome back to episode two sixty nine of the serum archaeology podcast and we're talking about workers comp and reporting you know injuries and things like that and something Heather you reminded me when you were talking on the last segment. Is I was crew chiefing. Um, really I was project managering I guess technically I was kind of new at it and it was it was it was like I'm a project manager but there's really somebody who's watching me because I was new at it so and it was for this other company I was working for but here's the thing you you mentioned. 11:53.62 Bill White 15 11:55.84 Heather Um, so but. 11:59.31 archpodnet You know, assessing people's abilities and I definitely do that from ah from a um, intellectual standpoint right? Like if somebody's really good at this or even if they want to learn something that they're not good at I'm conscious of that as well and but when it comes down to let's say physical abilities that is such a sticky. 12:02.54 Heather I'm good. 12:08.57 Heather Um, president. 12:11.58 Heather Go ahead. 12:16.43 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you can't discriminate. 12:17.85 archpodnet Gray area because I because know because check this out I had a crew um this again this was like twelve years ago I had a crew of 2 other people one was somebody who'd never worked in the field before this was literally her first field projects. She didn't look like she had any muscle on her body whatsoever and again I don't want to say anything. 12:18.65 Heather That is if. 12:34.89 Heather Me there. Oh. 12:37.41 archpodnet You're coming out with us. We're doing 10 on 4 off, it's about five Thousand Foot altitude and rugged terrain and it's going to suck. It's also like one ° and this is going to be terrible for everyone. Even if you're in good shape and the other guy was I mean I'm not a small guy. The other guy was a big guy and he was older. He had. I don't really know what his experience was to be honest with you. He was just given to me as a crew person. Well both of them for very different reasons had a really hard time with that project I felt like the one in shape on that project which is not a position I'm always in but you know she was she was struggling because she'd never done that kind of physical labor before. 12:59.67 Heather So. 13:05.20 Heather Um, yeah, so yeah. 13:12.56 Bill White Ah. 13:15.80 archpodnet Turns out he was struggling because he'd had triple bypass surgery the year before and he was having trouble breathing and I'm like okay so first off I had the crew changed out I was like these guys. Yeah, these guys need to do something else I'm not going to be responsible for a heart attack in the field right? so. 13:19.92 Bill White Oh my gosh Seriously those are the oh. 13:22.36 Heather I'm like but. 13:29.34 Heather Ah fight we pull me on. No no, but. 13:30.18 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 13:34.98 archpodnet But then here's here's the other thing. Let's say he did have a heart attack in the field is that a workers comp issue or is that a preexisting condition that they could argue. 13:38.23 Bill White Yeah. 13:40.75 Heather Yeah, yeah, bingo that's yes and oh that is 1 thing that I was going to bring up is that? Ah so yeah h r safety. They're always trying to look. 13:42.85 Bill White Well well, it's both but it's both. But then it happened at work right. 13:46.27 archpodnet Right? yeah. Yeah, yeah. 13:52.48 Bill White Um, yeah, and I ah I want to add to this too. 13:59.83 Heather At mitigating issues like this right? So this isn't discrimination I'm not going to go and look at somebody and say I think they're overweight or they don't have a muscle on their body because honestly I think sometimes you're going to be surprised because sometimes people's um. 14:00.52 archpodnet Yeah. 14:10.46 archpodnet Yeah, give him a shot. 14:11.29 Bill White Um, yeah. 14:16.97 Heather Mental toughness can push them through and then you have a guy who's all muscle bound and I'll show muscle and can't do leaping you know so yet you can't do that So I'm not saying discriminating by looking at them and stereotyping who you know what I think they can do. It's giving people a chance. 14:23.49 Bill White Yep, exactly. 14:35.54 Heather But then after time realizing that maybe ok this this area of you know this type of staff task I need is not this. They don't fit into that So this is just through experience and then also this is you know people need to be realistic. You're not. 14:43.96 archpodnet Yeah. 14:52.86 Heather Working for a company and the company doesn't owe you to pay you an hourly wage because they hired you to do nothing. They hired you to work in the field. They hired you for all these Sas and that's why you see this jobs description say you're able to hike so many miles a day you're able to withstand certain kind of ah. 14:57.77 Bill White Yeah. 15:12.36 Heather You know, climatic situations you're able to lift £50 you know for extended periods of time these things like they're real and they put these on job descriptions for a reason to cover themselves because you do get people that go out there and think oh well you know you hired me, you just owe me no, that's an honestly. 15:19.52 archpodnet Yeah. 15:26.50 Bill White Um, have. 15:29.10 Bill White Yeah. 15:31.29 Heather People Also need to look at it not being a ah good team player here either because when you have somebody who has issues health wise or whatever that keeps them from being able to be productive in the field you're hurting the others the others have to pick up your your slack now right? And so. 15:45.24 archpodnet Yeah. 15:46.46 Bill White There. 15:50.41 Heather Yeah I think people need to be need to be honest and I think a lot of people honest with themselves and what their abilities are yeah. 15:55.45 archpodnet Yeah, Agreed bill. 15:58.75 Bill White Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you said that thing about show muscle I'm sick of you guys always being like this guy's got all this muscle How come he can't lift more I never had show muscle I never had no muscle. Um. 16:04.11 archpodnet Right? right. 16:04.77 Heather Ah, yeah, yeah, but. 16:12.27 Bill White But I do know what it's like to just get given the people that you've got right? and so ah also in Arizona that's a holy cow. There's a lot of people who have these grandiose streams about doing southwestern archeology and then they get to the southwest and they you know? Yeah, yeah, it's not easy. 16:14.15 archpodnet Um, yeah. 16:25.62 Heather Um, dry D up. Yeah. 16:27.36 archpodnet It's rough. 16:31.43 Bill White And so I could never, you're given people for your projects. You don't get to choose. It's whoever they've hired and I can have a say on who I want if it's someone I already know. But at the end of the day if we just need 11 people then we just need 11 people so we can't we can't really be so sifting through and and trying to do those kind of you know? ah. 16:34.98 archpodnet Yeah food. 16:35.61 Heather Nothing. 16:50.51 Bill White Can you please pick this bucket of groundstone up over your head can you please walk across this parking lot in Arizona sun like we don't really get to give them physical tests to see if they can do it? Yeah no no, it's not the american gladiators so you you just have to do what you do? So the huge. 16:58.39 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 16:58.89 Heather A training team no training. Yeah like what? um. 17:08.75 Bill White Task for anyone who's running crews out. There is to um, find a way to modify the workflow or find a way for everyone to get across the finish line because you can't have like Chris was saying he's got 1 person who had ah you know heart surgery earlier one person who's their very first job. So the person who's very first job they need to. 17:16.31 archpodnet Yeah. 17:20.81 Heather Um, to ask. 17:28.26 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:29.40 Bill White Acclimated. You have to find some kind of a way to get that person through the project. The person who had ah heart surgery. You need to make sure that person doesn't you know, collapse and hurt themselves out there even more so here you are as this human that's like okay, we've got 5 people 2 of them need some kind of modification or something's got to happen. 17:31.45 Heather Oh. 17:35.96 archpodnet Yeah. 17:42.84 Heather Um, no. 17:48.90 Bill White And just like you were saying ah heather in some situations. That's just not possible if we're way back there and you are from you know, um I don't know Connecticut or Alaska and it's 106 out there every single day and we're doing 10 hours and it takes us 2 hours just to hike to the site I mean you're going to be weakened fast in the sun. 17:51.33 Heather Right. 17:58.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 17:59.40 Heather Um, well yeah. 18:07.57 Bill White It not only takes it out of your view immediately. But it also builds up so heat and sun are something that can build up and if people don't get proper lodging at night or they don't sleep or they don't drink water when they get back to the hotel. They'll be diminished and day after day ten days in a row that person is in a lot of trouble by the time you get to like the fourth or fifth day and so. 18:16.80 Heather And then. 18:22.63 Heather Um, yeah. 18:26.61 Bill White So like you know what do you do with that right? What do you do? if everybody goes out drinking and doesn't hydrate and now you're stuck with 8 people that are all hung over but we've got to work and it's it's 100 and some degrees that's ah, that's ah a health risk. That's the potential for people to get injured out in the field and the other thing too. 18:33.57 Heather A no. 18:34.94 archpodnet Yeah. 18:44.55 Bill White My last comment is you can never tell when it's going to happen to you or anyone else someone can be fully fit. They've been doing this for 7 years and all of a sudden just one day they feel lightheaded and they just don't feel so good. So paying attention to your crew and looking for the signs making sure that there's like. 18:48.75 archpodnet Yeah. 18:50.88 Heather Um, here? Yep yeah. 19:00.24 Bill White Certain levels of okay they're gonna go to the shade or they're gonna go to the truck or we're just going to the hotel or we're going to the hospital like that We have all those kind of things in place to get people to safety like those are really important things for folks to work out and guess what a lot of times your your Principal investigator. The person who gave you it didn't. 19:06.53 Heather Um, yeah, um. 19:18.94 Bill White They didn't look for any of the hospitals they didn't plan ahead if you know one Jeep has to go out can do we have 2 vehicles you know to back up the other one. What are we going to do if someone gets sick. That's on you. 19:30.50 archpodnet Um, yeah, you know 2 things on that real quick. The um, the thing you were saying Bill about like you know oh feeling lightheaded. You never know what those reasons are too right. 19:41.55 Heather My home. 19:42.31 archpodnet Like I I actually felt that um when I was working on that big china lake projects I I've talked about a lot on different shows I mean my tiny little company of 1 person was running a half million dollar project with $30000 in payroll and per Dm every 2 weeks and I was probably a little stressed out and not only that. But we're dealing with unexploded ordinance. 19:43.48 Bill White Yeah, yep. 19:58.18 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 20:01.14 archpodnet Butjave green rattlesnakes that will just chase you because they don't care and you know all this other stuff and there was and and also it was hot. It was rid Crest California and there was like a couple times on one session I remember I just kind of had to sit down I felt I steal a tightness and I I felt a shortness of breath and you know as a va. 20:04.90 Heather Um, and. 20:09.36 Bill White Know yeah. 20:16.10 Heather Yeah, so. 20:16.76 Bill White Um, yeah. 20:20.12 archpodnet Um, as as a veteran I went to the va and they actually I I mentioned that to my doctor I didn't get checked out right away mind you I'm running this project. There's no one to replace me and ah so but when it was over I did my annual checkup. It was a few months later and I just happened to mention that to my doctor and they. 20:28.66 Bill White Um, yep. 20:37.66 archpodnet Were overcautious. They did an angiogram where they they went in through my wrist and through my leg just to make sure they could get you know both sides of my heart. Everything looked fine. So I don't know why that happened I think it was just stress but you really just you know and and through an abundance of caution. You really should just you know, get checked out but then again like you said heather. 20:48.80 Bill White App. 20:48.14 Heather Now. 20:53.80 Bill White Air. 20:57.60 archpodnet Another thing I want to comment on you said the mental toughness sometimes people will push through well you know the girl what was it just last year that died in Louisiana she's new. She's like I mean people are saying she may have had an underlying heart condition and not even known about it or something like that. But even so if she had been feeling something would she have said anything. 21:00.86 Heather Um, yeah, and. 21:05.36 Bill White Yeah. 21:10.45 Heather Um, right? but. 21:16.44 archpodnet Because she just wanted to prove herself. You know what I mean and and and bill I mean I saw yesterday on the weather Channel Phoenix had its twenty third consecutive day of highs at ° or more how do you even work in that how is anybody doing work down there right now. Ah. 21:18.92 Bill White The. 21:26.25 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and you're right? You know there's tons of companies right? now there's people in Maricopa County in the you know Valley of the sun they're burning it out. They're out there right now. 21:30.96 Heather Um, yeah. 21:39.50 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 21:42.72 Bill White They're doing archeology right now when it's 11416 I mean that's just the reality of working in Arizona and that's what's up if you think that you're going to come from Seattle and go to Phoenix you are risking yourself. Um you know and and also we were just working in the virgin islands for forty days 21:42.78 Heather Um, me yeah. 22:00.51 archpodnet Um, yeah. 22:01.30 Bill White And every single day had a heat index of at least 99 it was like seventy seventy percent humidity every single day and sometimes it even rained and it was you know probably eighty eight ° every single day every day. Yeah I'll show you the photos of my vacation digging through a you know? ah. 22:12.30 archpodnet Um, but you're in the virgin islands you were on vacation bill you're getting that Berkeley cash. Um. 22:17.47 Heather I. 22:20.95 Bill White You know entire layer screening through layers of a burned house just black I mean I sweat so much that I could literally wring my shirt out. That's how disgusting it was down there sweating through your pants sweating through everything sweating into your backpack right? because there's there's no relief from the humidity right? like. 22:27.30 archpodnet Oh my God yeah. 22:36.10 archpodnet Ah, yeah, yeah. 22:36.69 Heather What. 22:39.27 Bill White Just your clothes are totally soaked all day long and you know we have to take a lot of ah lot of ah um, caution in the beginning because you know everybody's coming from everywhere else and I guarantee you they weren't outside in the virgin islands you know for six eight hours a day in the sun direct sun digging. 22:50.47 archpodnet Yeah. 22:51.40 Heather Yeah. 22:58.47 Bill White And so you know you you have to watch your people and we went at a pace that would have been like laughable for cultural resources in the beginning then by the end folks are moving like foundation blocks and digging shovel probes in like you know 40 minutes well they didn't start that way. They started off. You know. 23:13.85 archpodnet Yeah. 23:14.62 Bill White Us having to be flexible and let people take plenty of breaks and and have shade and everything and then by the end they can just go and take a screen and and excavate a shovel probe like seventy eighty centimeters through clay like it was you know a normal probe. So. 23:16.24 Heather Right. 23:28.10 archpodnet Um, yeah. 23:30.13 Bill White That's what I mean by like making sure that you're flexible in watching your crew that doesn't mean that immediately this person will never get to do archeology. But if you give them that space so they don't hurt themselves. Not only are you mini mitigating the risk because like you know when it comes to occupational health and safety if you notice a risk. 23:32.20 Heather Um, more. 23:40.40 Heather Praying. 23:48.15 Bill White Supposed to design a workflow that will mitigate or eliminate the risk right? and in archeology. We know we can't eliminate risk so one of the ways is to make sure that a person is easing into a situation like phoenix those people who are out there digging in phoenix if they got dropped in there right away from you know Alaska or Seattle they're they' toast. There's. 23:48.68 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 23:50.34 Heather Um, well. 24:02.37 archpodnet Yeah. 24:03.17 Heather Death. 24:06.90 Bill White You know, hardcore people who have been working in Arizona for years and so they're less likely to die but they still need to pay attention to their bodies and you still need to pay attention to your crew because once again it can happen to anyone like Chris was saying it can happen at any time to anyone. 24:08.13 Heather Yes. 24:16.69 archpodnet Yeah, all right? Well on that note, let's take a break and we'll we'll talk about well maybe what companies could or possibly are doing on the other side back in a minute all right. Oops. Welcome back to episode two sixty nine of the cormarcheology podcast. So one thing I've been thinking about through this and I was really thinking about this in segment one but it's good for segment 3 to wrap this up have either of you guys worked for or heard of or you know. Heather you work for a slightly bigger company that might be able to do this um has anybody ever had like ah like a medical checkup pre-employment or at least or even annually just to get like a baseline so the company can help help out with their liability and say oh you hurt yourself in the last job. 24:55.71 Heather Um. 25:05.25 Heather I'm gonna. 25:08.88 archpodnet And you come here and claim workers come because you're a field tech and and that's how it works you're you're just you're working all the time Anyway, it doesn't matter what company you're working for mentally you know, even if you hurt yourself on the last job. This is the one where you're in pain. So what do you guys? think. 25:10.79 Bill White Oh yeah. 25:15.83 Heather Um, the. 25:21.30 Bill White Yeah, yeah, no well I I mean I I don't want to step in front of heather too quick, but no I never worked for a company that did the screening I did it myself so I had to get my own physicals because I get 1 a year through my. 25:27.37 Heather No go for it. 25:34.12 archpodnet Um, can I. 25:38.99 Bill White Insurance so that would be the time when I would talk about all the times my back hurt and everything but then I would even add and so for a while in Seattle they didn't charge me but in Arizona they did charge me to get all my blood work done to see if my arsenic mercury and all those other things because doing historical archeology I'd dig through petroleum pits and you know. 25:50.69 archpodnet Um, you know. 25:53.54 Heather I know. 25:58.54 Bill White Ah, factories where they had all kinds of battery acid right? So those are the kind of soils that I was constantly digging in and we didn't always test those soils to make sure they were full of contaminants right? So if you're digging up mining site and they're processing or in stuff. Nobody's really necessarily testing that thing to see if you're sick so I would always. 26:06.25 archpodnet Yes. 26:17.95 Bill White Get my blood work done at my physical too. So it wasn't just about like my body and it it breaking but you know am I absorbing chemicals from the environment at a very high level and at what what point did that start right? So I'm not doing it after every single um field project. But once a year with my physicals. 26:24.89 archpodnet Um, yeah. 26:29.81 Heather Um. 26:34.37 Bill White Ah, when I was doing field archeology I would still get my blood work done and in Arizona I had to pay for it. 26:36.00 archpodnet Yeah I bet. Yeah. 26:40.70 Heather Yeah Wow I I've never of you talk to my team. They'll tell you they're always on me to go to the doctor I hate going to the doctor. Um I'm really bad about it I'm so bad Anyway, Um, but I think that's a. 26:48.16 Bill White Oh man. 26:54.85 Bill White Her. 26:57.32 Heather Great idea having companies do that I actually I mean I think Bill's idea is good I mean that's you know self-care. That's being responsible. Um I think that's really smart now with companies. Actually that's a really good question I've never heard of it. Um. 27:04.29 archpodnet Yeah. 27:15.94 archpodnet Um, none. 27:17.40 Heather I Actually think that it's a would be a very fair thing to do I mean we do drug tests ahead of time right? and um, that's mainly required usually because companies required not your company is usually because a client company requires it. So wow I I actually think it might be a good idea. 27:21.53 Bill White Yeah, cool. 27:25.97 archpodnet Yeah, so. 27:29.60 Bill White Um, yeah. 27:36.99 Heather Um, I actually you know I come from my sports background we had training camps the beginning of every year and that's because you know during the summer people are getting soft. Well, that's because my sport was hockey. You know and um, right? well. 27:45.94 archpodnet Yeah, and that's why there's always that. 27:50.84 Bill White Um, and there's no ice. 27:55.28 Heather Is always eyes but um, but we would have it was it was like you. It was a very it was a reality check right? The beginning of every year is who stayed in shape and who is thrown up over the side of the I mean there's things I think about that were happen in training cams that. 28:12.46 Bill White Yeah, it's not safe, not safe. 28:14.26 Heather My god would never fly you take dark like yeah, um, but you know I be like people just skating people just to see who's gonna throw up first kind of thing like said we don't do new mad does doing that in the field running transacts to see. He's gonna throw up first. 28:24.86 Bill White The yikes. 28:28.45 archpodnet Um, right? yeah. 28:32.56 Bill White Um, ah I think Arizona Arizona just takes Sarah that for you all you got to do is go outside and walk to the edge of the best my parking lot and you'll be buking. 28:33.52 Heather Anyway, Um, yeah, so I I actually I actually think that you know that there's just kind of a pie in the sky thing. But I actually think it's a good idea I think before the field season having a training camp. 28:34.50 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 28:47.41 Bill White Um, yeah. 28:52.14 Heather Not to test people but to give people a reality check and also um, yeah, it's a reality check. Basically now when it comes to the 1 thing that I did want to talk a little bit about is when it comes Tohr the 1 thing that that employees need to understand is that. Companies have a certain kind of rating. You know as far as accident rating and you know and you can you could end up not getting a job because of your rating and so you know and that's a lot of it is based on the type of report and the amount of the report. 29:12.28 archpodnet Was not. 29:30.30 archpodnet Um, I know. 29:31.43 Heather And so your rating can jump and only you know one report can knock your rating. You know to a deficit right? And so you that's something that they're always thinking about I mean like I guarantee you your HR department would want to help you in every single incident. 29:39.91 archpodnet Um, yeah. 29:51.29 Heather But you have they have to think about. Okay, first of all, how is this? How are we going to report this honestly and how is this report going to impact our ability to get work because you can knock yourself out for an entire year on a rating because. 29:55.64 archpodnet Yeah. 30:03.70 Bill White Um, yeah. 30:04.93 archpodnet Um, so yeah. 30:08.53 Heather Ah, had nothing to do wasn't the fault of the company or anything maybe wasn't even the fault of the employee just one of those things happened. So I think that people need to understand that. Yeah I think the responsibility runs responsibility is on both sides people cannot just show up to work and not prepare their body for it. 30:20.37 archpodnet Yeah. 30:21.48 Bill White Yeah. 30:27.65 Heather You see it I see it all the time. Yeah. 30:29.32 Bill White Yeah, ah. 30:29.78 archpodnet Well and ah along those lines and bill I was going to mention this and you put it in our comments here you know about field Texts taking care of themselves. It's It's going to have to be the kind of things that you budget for because if you don't have insurance which a lot of field Techs Probably don't I mean with. 30:40.55 Heather Um, yeah. 30:43.33 archpodnet With like obamacare and stuff you're required to carry something or do something or you get penalized for it. But um, either way people get around that and they they either or that they just don't go to the doctor because they don't have like a regular doctor to go to but you can go to places and and get a checkup and get a physical and get blood work done and it might cost you a few hundred dollars right but 30:43.52 Bill White Yep. 30:49.61 Heather Um, like. 30:53.33 Bill White Um, yeah. 31:01.78 Bill White Yeah. 31:02.64 archpodnet It's the kind of thing like taking care of your car. You get your oil changed, get your own oil changed. You know what I mean and and get that checked out and it's it might suck to say that but like you guys are both saying. It's the thing to do and and you really should do that? Um, and ah I don't I had another point about companies but bill go ahead. 31:07.16 Heather I mean. 31:20.13 Bill White No, that was I was going to mention about that. They don't most field Techs don't have health insurance and so folks are caught in this like kind of middle zone where you know I think a lot of us for the longest time. 31:24.39 archpodnet Um, yeah, um. 31:36.52 Bill White Was like well the company needs to be taken care of this and the company needs to do that and the company needs to take care of but the amount of delay that I experienced in my career between the company doing anything and like me getting hurt or getting the help I need was always so far that. You know it's not like I went to HR and said my wrist hurts and they were like okay go to quick care right now that that was you know fill out this form and I've got to pass it through here and there and your wrist hurts and you got to get to work tomorrow so you got to see do you have a broken bone or do you can you go to work right? So Those are the kind of things that sometimes for your own Health. You got to. 31:54.53 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 32:11.75 Bill White Just have to bite the bullet and I I hope that people can get. We can get universal single-payer Healthcare like that just to me solves many things for companies many things for individuals people don't get hurt as much because they can go to the doctor. They're not afraid of going into you know, extreme debt because they hurt their wrist so you know these are the kind of things I can see. 32:14.30 archpodnet Yeah. 32:25.50 archpodnet Yeah, well, the duke prevented is come. Yeah. 32:31.58 Bill White yeah yeah I mean that's how these other countries folks live longer than us because they can just they don't have to worry if they get a cough. They just go to the doctor. So you know it's it's tragic but um, at a certain point. I mean how long would you wait after getting an injury for you to actually go to the doctor on your own even if you didn't have insurance right? because a small minor thing that kind of hurts today if you take care of it real quick and give it the rest then you don't have you know 50 $60000 bills. Um, but. 32:48.52 archpodnet Yeah. 33:02.53 Bill White If you let it go longer and tough it out and just keep grinding then you're going to get a bad injury and and like I said by the time the company has um you know filled the Workman's comp claim out, you've gotten the money this and that like you you now your illness is way worse right? because you didn't go and take care of it right? So I mean it's just a. 33:04.90 Heather My high. 33:15.42 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 33:22.12 Bill White It's a horrible situation to be in and I have been in it personally but like you're saying sometimes a couple hundred dollars well placed will save your career and save you thousands down the road. 33:30.46 archpodnet Yeah, not not only like you said save your career because so many people especially new people in this field are just running the edge of payroll you know, working paycheck to paycheck and and that's just that's just the way it is in this field and. 33:41.48 Bill White Yeah. 33:45.11 Heather Um, love. 33:47.60 archpodnet You know you're afraid that hey if I report something or if I go get checked out and I find out it can't work for two weeks or a month that could be enough to make it so you never work in archeology again right? You know you don't ever get another job if that was at the end of the field season I mean it could just be I don't know could be devastating for people. So if we had. 33:57.44 Bill White Um, yeah. 34:02.74 Bill White Yeah. 34:04.52 archpodnet Sort of assurance that hey I can't take this time off I will get paid or I could maybe do something in the office or I can do something else you know and and still you know not have that physical um limitation but you know what made me think Heather too. Yeah, oh yeah. 34:16.57 Bill White Or like I was going to say or like Fmla where it's like you know what? my wrist hurts now it's going to probably hurt for six weeks but I'm going to take this job driving you know lift or doing something else or I'm going to work at you know some other place but in six weeks when my wrist is. 34:23.80 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 34:31.20 archpodnet Yeah. 34:35.87 Bill White Is back. Can I come back and do archeology I mean that would be amazing if somehow there was that kind of situation where they'd know that okay, Bill's out for six weeks but on you know, um, October whatever we could call him and have him go back out on projects like just kind of a delay and it's sad that you have to find another job because this is the United States but 34:38.72 archpodnet Yeah. 34:48.73 archpodnet Sure. 34:55.34 Bill White Seriously, it's better to take those six weeks off and let your arm in whatever else rehabilitate so that you can do archeology for the next six years 34:57.44 Heather Yeah. 35:02.50 archpodnet Yeah, and and Heather um you were saying how it sounded like a good idea with companies maybe doing a you know a prephysical like liability check. But I was thinking when I was thinking that was a good idea too. It's why I mentioned it. But then while you were talking I was like. 35:02.42 Heather What earth. 35:13.77 Bill White Um. 35:14.48 Heather On. 35:16.77 archpodnet Man I mean these companies especially bigger ones all work on statistics and money and if workers comp fraud which is what they would call. It was really a thing then they'd already be doing that So it must not be that big of a financial hit for companies. Otherwise they would be proactively doing something I would imagine if if people were just showing up and making a workers comp claim in the first segment. 35:21.70 Heather Yeah, yeah. 35:31.99 Heather Yeah I don't think people actually think that much. Yeah I think you're giving them way credit I they should they probably should. But I think they're giving I don't know from my perspective I think that's giving them a lot of credit. 35:36.67 archpodnet You know now maybe they don't. 35:43.17 Bill White Ah, feeling. Ah. 35:44.21 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, my big. 35:51.97 Heather Um I I will say when I was in you know school ah for archeology I I don't remember once hearing you better be in good shape. These are the realities of your physical. You know what's going to be asked of you physically I don't remember. 36:07.79 Bill White Yeah. 36:08.62 archpodnet Um, yeah. 36:10.87 Heather Yeah, that's another and I know we say this a lot broken record. You know it needs to start at the University because you have a lot of people that get into archeology that are more kind of bookworm people and nowadays with young people. Um, they're not as active as they used to be. They're just not. 36:14.38 archpodnet E. 36:21.14 Bill White Yeah. 36:28.95 Heather Um, they're more in front of their screens and so people are going to be going into this field blinded like blindside. They're not going to realize what's going to be required of them and and I think that that's I think that's really important is that people know that we yeah the people are going into into it. 36:33.61 Bill White Yeah. 36:47.16 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 36:48.89 Heather With full knowledge. 36:51.36 Bill White Yeah, the the 1 thing I was going to say I just realized it this last summer working with students as I talked to folks people who did stuff like dance team basketball. Ah boy scouts um cheerleading gymnastics. Football like those those people a lot of times you'll find that. Oh yeah, when I was in middle school I played basketball or you know I was a cheerleader all the way through high school or you know all different kinds of like team and like physical active folks. They do really good in archeology field work. It's it's kind of crazy. 37:13.20 Heather Make. 37:25.59 Heather Yep. 37:27.40 Bill White And then I watch it and it's no not just archeology field work I know a lot of people who also did team sports who are great in the lab and also great at a lot of different levels and so it's it's kind of I'm just I'm just now putting that together this last year that 37:32.45 Heather Yes, yes, yes. 37:40.41 Bill White A lot of the people that I worked with they played soccer or they you know for a couple years and it didn't even have to be in high school. It could be like way back when they were in elementary school or you know middle school. It just seems to me like that kind of physical activity I Just now put it together that that is a strong predictor of someone being able to do fieldwork. 37:55.20 archpodnet Now. 37:57.93 Heather I I think there's a few reasons. Um that carry over to lab as well. First of all, it's teamwork. Um, it's also knowing that you can um you know you can work I'm sorry hearing so something of my Bo is laing. Sorry. 38:12.99 Bill White Um, yeah. 38:15.50 Heather Ah, that's distracting. Um you you know what? it's like to fail and that fails not failures not bad right? So you're not walking at late and if you're on a team and and you're acting like Mr know it all right? You know like either you can do something or you can't and that doesn't that doesn't work so the failure. 38:19.79 archpodnet Yeah. 38:34.94 Heather Um, being able to go out and try something without this fear of failing all the time. That's what pulls people back and and prevents them from being able to learn and do better and then from a physical point of view unless you have pushed your body. You will never know what it can do so unless you've. 38:39.39 Bill White Me. 38:49.31 archpodnet Yeah. 38:50.31 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 38:53.25 Heather Your body and and and the only way to do that is I mean the only way to know where your body you know how far you can go is to you know through sports or some kind of physical activity and so even though somebody may have done it like you said bill back in elementary school. They still have that experience. 39:07.74 Bill White Yeah. 39:12.00 Heather And they know also that you can't just go in cold like you got to prepare your yeah you and you know it's funny I was on a project and um and we were doing kind of like you know precon meeting and everything and this one company they all laugh at them. 39:13.88 archpodnet Yeah. 39:15.36 Bill White Ah, yeah, yeah. 39:31.90 Heather But they make everybody stretch everybody like whether there's know Nascar whatever in the beginning of that day. Everybody stretches and I think it's a great idea. Yeah. 39:32.95 archpodnet Um, yeah. 39:34.22 Bill White Um I. 39:37.64 archpodnet Yeah. 39:38.42 Bill White yeah yeah I had I started doing yoga before I even started doing archeology because I used to work at Costco and that place just breaks your body down standing on concrete like that lifting and so my body was in a lot of pain. So I already had that habit of stretching before work. 39:45.86 Heather How I can imagine. 39:47.58 archpodnet Ah. 39:52.71 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, all right guys? Well that's about all the time we have today. Hopefully you know we gave some people some words of encouragement especially as we're in you know one of the hottest heat waves the the. The world has ever had really I mean people are hot all over the place. 40:11.46 Bill White Um, yeah, ah yeah, 1 thing to think about this is the coolest the earth will ever be. So if you if you were looking for it to somehow yeah in our lifetime. So if you were thinking that somehow these. 40:15.51 archpodnet Um, yes in our lifetimes. 40:24.24 Bill White You know, unprecedented levels in Arizona by the time you're 40 or 50 if you're listening to this 120 you'll be a normal thing for phoenix and 130 by the time you're an elder is going to be what's up. So if you can't make it now when it's 103 then what are we going to do when it's one hundred and thirty and we still have to do archeology outside. 40:32.50 archpodnet Yeah. 40:32.79 Heather But okay. 40:40.86 archpodnet Yeah, indeed well on that horrible note. Let's ah yeah, yet, exactly so. 40:45.34 Heather Um, which funds are that. 40:48.89 Bill White Ah I mean it's phoenix so what I'm sorry folks know I lived in Tucson right? I went to the real University Of Arizona phoenix to me is like you don't even fly into that thing if you don't have to your plane might crash in the summer it's too hot so I got no love for Phoenix I like people from phoenix I like individuals. 41:03.41 archpodnet Yeah, it's literally hill right now. Yeah, all right guys? Well thanks for this and everybody again remember first off we have affiliate links that really help us out. We have membership arcpod not arcpodnett.com/members. 41:05.23 Bill White The place itself I don't have and anything really good to say about Phoenix. Yeah. 41:06.56 Heather Um, no thank you? but. 41:21.58 archpodnet And now everything is going on to Youtube if you'd rather consume your podcast that way or you know see what we look like so you can throw stuff at us when you see us at conferences all right. Thanks guys and we'll see you next time. Thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see in the field. Goodbye. 41:42.50 Bill White See you later. 41:42.90 Heather Thanks for listening.