00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is Heather in her kitchen in Southern California and Doug with child in Scotland. 00:00.00 Doug A. 00:04.30 Heather I everyone. 00:12.47 Doug Ah, yep, that that's Ila and hello everyone. Yeah, she's actually she's better than her sister. She actually like does this out a timely manner. 00:12.70 archpodnet Oh yeah, we can hear right on Q exactly up. 00:14.63 Heather Right on Q oh. 00:25.53 Doug Have to have her do the outro ah Chris so that it's it's all lined up on time. 00:25.96 archpodnet Um, nice and exactly right right? Yeah and and bill I don't know what his life story is but he was in like st croix last time we recorded and now he's in the Netherlands like he's gone back there. He's gone back to Denmark and. 00:30.10 Heather Um, but yeah, it thinks be better than you doug. So but. 00:37.14 Heather Is. 00:44.40 archpodnet Now he's in the Netherlands I was like are you moving there bill I don't know what's happening. But yeah, he likes it over there and then Andrew is in Hawaii I'm pretty sure unless he's coming back today. So we're literally spread across the world right now. But I'm glad that three could join and I mentioned. 00:46.93 Heather I think. 00:47.63 Doug Um, but and. 00:59.65 archpodnet Backgrounds and and anybody who hasn't seen my ah Rv this is the side of it if you're looking at on Youtube if you don't know what I'm talking about head over to the archeology podcast network on Youtube and you can see our our Youtube channel we're starting to put everything up there and this is the second episode we're recording. But video on Doug doesn't have a camera available. So it's Heather and I on the video today but we are starting to do this more and more just to have more engagement over there on that platform because that's where a lot of people you know, listen to podcasts and and watch shows. It's ah it's a very popular place to do that so we may as well embrace it so okay, well. 01:33.55 Heather Me. 01:36.20 archpodnet Heather it was your topic today and it's a a topic that can be a source subject for a lot of young new firm owners and and people getting to the business but also people have been doing this forever. Yeah, so what are we? What are we talking about today. 01:41.39 Heather If. 01:49.11 Heather Right? But we are talking about proposals. Um I actually think that proposals and understanding how to write proposals Even if you've never written a proposal. You don't want to write a proposal no ambition to write a proposal. 02:04.41 archpodnet Yeah. 02:06.69 Heather Um, I think that understanding the process helps um at any level helps a archeologist and crm at any level. Um, because it helps you understand the process. It helps you understand why budgets are important. 02:11.32 archpodnet Boom. 02:21.94 Heather Why? Um, sometimes there might be more wiggle room in the fields than there is in a lab or vice versa. Um, and why you know I think maybe I at least for me when I was beginning. It was a bit of a puzzle to understand why why? Why do we do this a phase one one way. 02:41.53 archpodnet Um, yeah, Brett. 02:41.76 Heather And then we do a phase one a different way. You know for the next project and it's so can be. It can be confusing so I thought just going through that process might be a good idea me. 02:50.60 archpodnet Um, yeah, and and just setting the stage here because we're talking about you've got some stuff in the notes here like defining an rfp. Think we should even step back a little further. You know Rfp is request for proposal but you also see rfq's out there request for quote it really just kind of depends on who's setting it out to be honest with you and but they can can be different things. Yeah. 03:01.59 Heather Um, um, yes, yes yeah, oh yeah, that there's so many different and there's I I would say probably 70% 60% Other proposals that I write have no Rfp or rfq. It's just a client saying I need something I have no idea what I need and what is the process to make sure that you are doing ah your due diligence make sure you're in covering everything in the proposal that the client needs. 03:20.74 archpodnet Oh. 03:33.94 archpodnet So in that case, then we're really talking about I would say and correct me if I'm wrong because I trust me, you've done a lot more of these than I have in the past but the major differences I see between certain proposals like formally requested ones through say an agency. 03:36.10 Heather So yeah, she. 03:51.50 archpodnet And an existing client. You may have that's just like hey I need a proposal for this new project. Some of the major differences I see there is one of them. You probably have a templatized format that you guys use and you send it out say and this is what we're going to do This is how much can it cost and this is when we expect to get it done but agency proposals often have a very predefined format that you have to use. 03:53.32 Heather Yeah. 04:05.82 Heather Are. 04:11.42 archpodnet With predefined sections and I need this. It can't be more than 10 pages. Sometimes it's got to be these and all that other stuff. Those are the big differences I see do you see anything else different surrounding that. 04:19.82 Heather Yeah one I think well you brought up a really good point. The difference between what we call an rfp and a rfq we should probably provide definitions so an rfp is request for proposals. Rf q is requests request for qualifications I heard you do you call a request for. Quotes there. There may be other you know acronyms um, my understanding you know and it it just also probably depends on the agencies that you're working with in the area of the country or the world that you're working in. So um, but you know they're all similar so request for proposal is when like you said an agency come you know. 04:40.87 archpodnet Yeah. 04:52.54 archpodnet Um. 04:59.32 Heather Comes to you and a lot of times private clients do that too. Ah, clients are a little bit more savvy. They have an attorney and staff they have counsel that they want to make sure that everything is covered. They want to control the work a little bit more than just the you know, an average client. Um, and then a request for qualifications ah is a little different than that is That's when you are presenting your qualifications that you can do the work and you're going to do it well and there's various different agencies that. 05:20.93 archpodnet Um, oh yeah. 05:31.63 Heather Put that out first. There's a reason for that they have requirements that they have to fulfill many times. Um, many times federal agencies where they have quotas and things that they have to fulfill so that request for qualifications is a first step then after that they take their select the people that they select they consider. 05:50.30 archpodnet Not. 05:50.96 Heather Qualified and then they send an rfp from there and then you you work off that ah rfb Then you have projects where they want the scope but they don't want the cost yet or they want the scope and the costs are delivered separately. So a decision is made based on your scope. 06:05.67 archpodnet Yeah. 06:10.58 Heather And how whether or not they believe that you're going to be able to follow through with everything that you're saying you're going to ah number 2 They're also looking at um, making sure that you followed all the directions and that you did present everything in your scope that they were asking for. 06:23.34 archpodnet Um. 06:26.66 Heather And then based on that then they look at at the cost. So the decision is made solely on the proposal. 06:33.64 archpodnet Yeah, and I have heard you know unless you're a well-known company to the agency. You have a really good. Well-developed relationship like if you I don't know if you just miss something stupid in the proposal that they required. They're probably not going to ding you for that too much but if you're relatively new and they don't really know you that well and you haven't done a lot of projects. I mean I've heard that if you don't get exactly right? What they're asking for. You're missing something that you're turning in you're out because they received 800 other proposals and they don't have time for you. So. 06:56.82 Heather Yes, yeah, you know there's um I think some people I to be candid I believe that there are many times that. 07:13.27 Heather Ah, the decision makers have one company that want to use and the fact that you're the fact that you're not following the directions is just you know if if you miss 1 little thing. It's an excuse not to select you? Um, yeah, and you know it? Yeah, go ahead. 07:14.85 archpodnet Right? Oh sure. 07:27.94 archpodnet I mean yeah, yeah, no, um I mean again I'm a really small company and I've done a number of proposals and I've always heard the ratios about 10 to 1 for you know, relatively new companies where you'll you'll win 1 proposal for every 10 you send out and the ratio might even be. 07:41.99 Heather Um, yeah, it was good saying who. 07:43.90 archpodnet Less than that now if you've got a well-established relationship. Yeah, and you've got things going on then it might be a little bit higher but you know for those I mean you're just you're just turning in a lot of proposals and like you said a lot of times you know they're required, especially the agencies they're required to send out a request because that's that's their public due diligence right? They have to do that. 07:59.53 Heather Right. 08:02.14 archpodnet But they are just like probably hoping with cross fingers that a couple firms that they've worked with in the past actually submit and they're more than likely going to get it but they also have a responsibility to the public to get it at the cheapest price so you can win if you come in underneath but then that brings up the whole thought of. 08:12.35 Heather Right. 08:19.88 archpodnet Lowballing and the reason nobody gets paid very well and and it just brings the whole industry down. 08:21.80 Heather Yeah, or you lowball with the idea that you're going to have a contract amendment and so that's also the fear on on the side of and you know your relationship that you have um. 08:28.23 archpodnet Sure. 08:37.17 Heather And what you've established with that client agency or private you know, helps them understand that you don't do that. But there's a lot of companies Obviously that lowball and there's people that are making decisions that maybe aren't ah savvy and they go with the lowball offer and almost every time it comes up where there's. 08:49.56 archpodnet Oh. 08:55.21 archpodnet If. 08:56.62 Heather Contract amendments and it ends up being more expensive in the long run or it can be more expensive if the company that lowballed is less experienced and I'll tell you there's been several I mean ah a decent amount of our work is cleaning up other people's messes. 09:12.99 archpodnet Sure if. 09:14.79 Heather So think about it, you've already paid another company do the work and now you have to have somebody else come in and do the work all over again or try to come and and fix what they can you know. 09:23.71 archpodnet Right? Doug you got a comment. 09:30.11 archpodnet Dog. 09:38.00 archpodnet Doug we can't hear you. 09:43.40 archpodnet Okay, we can go ahead. Pretend that never happened I'll edit it out. 09:44.76 Doug Can you hear me now. Yeah, so none that she she was playing with the microphone and turned it on mute manually over here. Um yeah, was. 09:47.80 Heather So. 09:50.96 archpodnet Nice, nice. Well this will be on Youtube because it's not edited but just continue for the podcast. We'll edit all this out. 10:00.25 Doug Ah, perfect. Um you guys sort of mentioned ah a preferred person. Um I would say especially when you have like say private sector. There's not necessarily a preferred candidate as preferred candidates. Um, and that um. 10:12.45 archpodnet Ah. 10:15.35 archpodnet Sure. 10:16.33 Heather Please. 10:19.37 Doug You know they'll they'll be happy. They'll know the work of several people and that's usually when they go out for a sort of private tender. Um as Heather was saying and yeah, there's they would I would say there's not necessarily like there's always this just the one some of them will be like yeah we're happy with with you know. Ah, couple of these people if they got it? yeah. 10:40.34 Heather It happens both yeah I hope it happens both days I mean I I know for certain there's yeah I can I'm just like in my mind right now I can think of 1 um agency not agency I should say but an entity or an organization that wants one 1 group. That's it. And you know it's just gotten to the point where you don't even propose anymore and that that's another thing we can talk about. But yeah. 11:03.26 archpodnet Um, yeah, and I think in this first segment I do want to talk about the different types of things that you could expect us to do it as a proposal 1 thing that's coming into my mind that I actually had quite a bit of success with is an idiq. And that is getting on to a a 5 ive-year plan basically with an agency often a military base or something like that and you know in the in those circumstances now idiq means um, correct me from wrong indefinite delivery indefinite quantity. So basically you're just saying. 11:21.60 Heather 1 11:31.45 Heather Um, um. 11:32.86 archpodnet Here's our qualifications. You're usually under a prime contractor and they have subs that work. You know, different areas and and the subs basically submit to the prime and they submit the whole package and it's basically here's what I can do this for and one of the things that oh my god the the china lake project I worked on that was under an idiq I believe and. But but basically we had to submit a table without knowing what could happen in the next five years we had to submit a table that said if we do a project of small medium or large size Whatever. However, they define that and they had definitions. This is what it's going to cost us and then they have like 5. 11:57.54 Heather Um, who oh. 12:04.30 Heather Um, yeah. 12:07.30 archpodnet Companies that won the idi idiq and when they have a new project within their area. They just look and see who's going to do it the cheapest of those 5 companies and you get it. There's no proposal. There's no anything. That's how it worked that is incredibly stressful because if you misjudged something and you end up having to do it. 12:15.15 Heather Um, yeah, it is and yeah you know it's um, there's you know, a lot of proposals. 12:23.67 archpodnet Cheaper than it is. There's that you can't even submit it an amendment in most cases, you just have to do it. Yeah. 12:32.62 Heather Boy we could go into the the weeds on this but um I'll just say this much that you know I think smaller companies is a little. It's a little different because there's federal agencies have a requirement for a certain amount of a dbe mean disadvantaged business a enterprise. 12:50.35 archpodnet Um, yeah. 12:51.86 Heather That are so a company like ours. That's moderately big or a moderately size. Um company. Do not qualify for those and so either we have to bring somebody in as a you know as a vendor as as a subcontractor or we just don't go after them and so I think as a small. Business and a lot of times the small businesses that's all they go after are those ones that are you know that are required to have Dbs so um, but I can think you know we have agencies that have a five year five year contract with us and we have um. 13:14.73 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:28.80 Heather We have to set just exactly what you're saying we have to not necessarily say this is how much each task is going to cost but we give them our billing rates and and we have them stratified based on you know the the years that the contract covers and then we and we have to stick to it. 13:36.19 archpodnet Yeah. 13:44.83 archpodnet Yeah, and I mean talk about challenging, especially you know what? what? If there's a global pandemic during 1 of those years you know how does that change things. Yeah, so. 13:46.56 Heather Yeah. 13:52.64 Heather Failure. 13:59.70 archpodnet All right? Well, let's take a break and then on the other side we'll come back and and dive into these proposals a little more and actually writing one back in a minute welcome back to episode two seventy the serum archeology podcast and we are talking about writing proposals basically in the different types of proposals. But now I think we're. Unless we got more to talk about there. We should just get into actually putting these things together. 14:18.35 Heather Yeah, yeah, um, so you know I think let's look at um, maybe just go down the road of an rfp. How do you create a proposal from an ah Rfp so we alluded to the fact that it is important to look at all the details. Sometimes and you you kind of get your feel for you understand which agencies are pickier than others. Um, but it is important as a rule to follow the Rfp page length resumes how long the resumes should be are the resumes counted in the page link now. I'm fortunate that we have a publications department that pretty much they go through the whole ah Rfp and they do all those types of things they make you know marks for that and if it's a larger rfp they write quite a bit of it with the boilerplate that we have. 14:57.80 archpodnet Oh nice. 15:04.30 archpodnet Have. 15:11.72 Heather But then when it comes to scope for specific tasks then to me I actually like it I I think probably a little crazy but I enjoy it because this is where you get it be creative. This is where you get to not only show. That you read the Rfp you understand what they need but also you can say okay, you know what? Ah very respectfully I don't think you need this and this is why or I think that if we go down you know, maybe this is a different um avenue that you want to you know as far as the task goes this is a different approach. 15:36.44 archpodnet Yeah. 15:48.55 Heather And this is why we believe this is the case and and we've won we've won projects just on that Um, thinking outside the box helping ah and especially when it's a cost saving measure and if it's not a cost saving measure. It's going to cost more. 15:54.27 archpodnet Mom. 16:05.19 Heather Why in the long run they want to do this. Why is this going to increase the defensibility of the work that you're doing Why is this essential if you're going to add a task. Um, so that creativity I Really enjoy that. Um I know for some. It's. 16:13.54 archpodnet Um. 16:22.89 Heather They don't enjoy it. But um, yeah I think that that to me having not only following the rules but at the same time finding that balance between following the rules and customizing the proposal is essential to winning. 16:41.20 archpodnet You know how do you guys deal with proposals that say well they require maybe specific things right? I'm thinking of 1 in particular that I lost to a company ah Logan Simpson in fact I've talked about this on the radio on the air before I don't care who if they know but I'm so pissed. 16:55.88 Heather Um. 16:58.33 archpodnet No, it was a it was a project right in my backyard basically and and we didn't win it and we didn't win it by just ah, just a narrow margin because you can you can talk to the agency and say why didn't we win this right? I mean they have to tell you that? Yeah so. 17:06.99 Heather Yes, yes, I'm going to talk with. And yeah, yeah. 17:12.00 archpodnet And we didn't win it because they said that there was a bunch of remote areas and atvs would likely be required to access some of these areas and I was like great. We have ah a place in town. We can rent atvs from we can tow it with our truck and and if we win this. We'll get those atvs well Logan Simpson said they have atvs and they'll use them. So the agency was like okay well they don't have to rent them. And you know because what if you can't rent them and what if something's going on and that's literally why we lost the project. that's that's it so mad how do you deal with stuff. That's a requirement that you don't have Logan Simpson Logan Simpson yeah 17:35.90 Heather Yeah, well that's and if Logan if they what's their What's the name of that Logan sense simson if they would i. I would actually venture to say they may not have even had atvs but they're saying yeah access to t atvs just like you have access to atvs. Um, and they were getting a little you know creative with their with their verbiage. But you know that is. 17:55.21 archpodnet Exactly me too. Ah. 18:04.58 archpodnet Right. I did be creative with my verbiage. Yeah Doug go ahead. 18:09.57 Heather Did you learn something from that and is you. 18:17.46 Doug Um, well,, That's actually what I was gonna talk about being creative with your verbiage. Um and not actually being creative but it's a weird thing as you do more and more proposals you'll find out and it man it's it's almost like ah a crapshoot because. What you're looking at is the it's the people who are evaluating that and if you know them you might know what they're looking for. But if you don't um, it could be so you know you've just mentioned things of like oh you're supposed to have that. Um, and that's how you lost the the contract I've gone through other projects where it's like oh these are must haves. 18:36.33 archpodnet M. 18:52.76 Doug And actually they didn't turn out to be must haveves at all. Um, and that's that's just it's it's um I think of heard someone describe it as like fly fishing and that like each time You're're you're throwing out a different sort of lure hoping that it works and in the fish bite and it doesn't. 18:54.16 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 18:57.43 Heather I. 19:10.79 Doug Sometimes it doesn't work because sometimes you could be super detailed and probably that's actually what happened to you eucharris you were probably detailed and said where you where exactly you're going to get your atvs and possibly Logan Simpson just said we will source atvs or we have a source of at you know something. 19:13.20 archpodnet Now. 19:20.60 archpodnet Right. 19:28.66 Heather You. 19:29.41 Doug Very generic enough that they probably might be renting them. But um, the person who's reading that can only base their usually Hopefully they're only basing their decision off of what's presented and and like it's a crazy thing like sometimes you provide too much detail and it costs you the project. 19:37.33 archpodnet Yeah. 19:47.33 Heather Right. 19:47.58 Doug Sometimes you don't provide enough detail and they're like actually we wanted like we want to minute by minute breakdown of of you know all your times when you're going to set off and your your work packages and all this stuff. So it's It's really tough sometimes you know, um, being more vague helps you. 19:54.73 archpodnet Um, yeah. 20:06.56 Doug Sometimes being more detailed helps you? um and you start to get a feel if you've dealt with the same organizations or people what they're looking for and that can sometimes help you um but other times roll the dice you you put out what you think it is there and hopefully the person who's reviewing it. 20:07.71 Heather Um. 20:19.52 Heather Um, yeah I yeah. 20:26.63 Doug Reacts better to um, ah you know a detailed proposal if you put in a detailed proposal or or detailed details. Yeah sorry hi you. 20:32.20 Heather I You can also head your bets and you know what I've done before is that I I do more of that broad sense unless of course the Rfq requests it a more specific right? But I think the really best bet is to. Go with what the rfq requests and then put in verbiage in there I Love Assumption verbiage and I I mean assumptions are obviously essential. But it's more than just the typical assumptions and then also putting verbiage in there that alluding to the fact that more details can prove. 21:03.66 archpodnet Um, of my. 21:09.70 Heather Provided upon request, but not in that kind of just blanket way that you say okay well there is a much more complex you know approach to this Um, which we will be happy to explain upon request type of thing and so then that gives you that option. 21:25.70 archpodnet Should yeah. 21:29.46 Heather To kind of say hey you know there's a lot more to this, especially when you have a page limit. You know some of these page limits are insane and you know and the other thing is that you have to think about is that the people that are reading these. They don't want to read these, especially they really don't and you know, especially if. 21:44.93 archpodnet Yeah. 21:49.18 Heather If if there's like a hundred of these and they're all you know we've had we've had proposals 150 pages long. It's insane. So they're looking and they have people that go and fat them before they get to the next stage. Okay did they get all the and that's where you can get kicked out before even the decision makers see it is. 21:57.35 archpodnet Ah. 22:08.61 Heather The fact that the people that were vetting it before it got to them said they didn't couldnt they didn't follow this direction that direction that direction you're gone. Um, so yeah, right. 22:14.89 archpodnet I mean I mean this isn't any different than you know, crafting your cv and applying for a Job. You're just doing it from a company standpoint so you got to follow the rules and then just like a Cv you got to tread the fine line of following the directions and giving them what they asked for. And saying yes I do have a field school I do have ah you know a degree and I've got this relevant experience same thing with with Proposals. You know we've got these qualifications we have relevant experience in the area and or with the agency and you know here's our past our past performance but you also have to tread the line of. 22:35.13 Heather By. 22:49.12 archpodnet Providing all those things but also realizing Yes, they're humans that don't want to read any of this So don't be too too verbose too descriptive and too flowery with your language just give them the details and call a good. You know what? I mean? Yeah, so all right? So how do you just looking at your notes here. Let's talk about some of the. 22:54.14 Heather Um, me right right? Yes, yeah. 23:07.75 archpodnet Potentially out of scope and and things that you just can't anticipate how do you build that in without saying you know we may need all this extra money because then you won't win the project. 23:08.40 Heather Um, okay with you. 23:15.71 Heather Okay, so what you do is that you are very specific with your verbiage. Um, so that maybe they don't and this isn't pulling Woolve or anyone's eyes, but this is covering yourself so you are very specific with the language like I can't tell you talk about thinking too much but you have to. 23:23.90 archpodnet Sure. 23:33.36 Heather In this area. The Devil's in the details so you have to look at what is covered from a legal sense. What would be covered and what you're saying you're going to do and then you have assumptions now you don't want to have 30 different assumptions for 1 task right? But that's why. 23:43.57 archpodnet Um, yeah. 23:52.24 Heather Writing your language is really important that you do it in a concise and very accurate way. So that when let's say something happens. This is a very easy one I think everybody uses it where you say that you know one of the assumptions is that no resources will be found. 24:10.19 archpodnet Yeah. 24:12.86 Heather Um, so that's 1 example, no research are going to be found. Why would you want to say that here just say that because if a resource is found now. All of a sudden you have all these other things that you have to do um to address that resource that you don't want to go. 24:23.11 archpodnet Yeah. 24:29.49 Heather Full fledged and say oh okay, well, but we're going to put everything in the proposal because we may find a resource you do that and all of a sudden your number will knock you out before they even read it. So your budget will knock it out before you even read it. So just you know those kinds of assumptions are important. And making sure that you're Um, yeah, you're very specific with your language. Yeah. 24:54.10 archpodnet Yeah, ah the assumptions for those that don't know what we're talking about I even have those on some other contracts and proposals I put together for this software thing that I do I mean the assumptions can really save your ass because you're not saying this and this and this is going to happen. You're just saying hey. 25:02.81 Heather Um, yes. 25:08.12 archpodnet I'm literally assuming that this is going to happen and if it doesn't We're going to have a conversation about it right? like during the project you know if it goes beyond this you know. 25:12.84 Heather Yeah, yeah, and you finish Yeah, you finish it off in a nice way. You say you know like if if additional so additional tasks are required. Um, we'll be happy to you know provide a supplemental you know cost and. 25:20.61 archpodnet Yeah. 25:27.95 archpodnet Um, yeah, go ahead. Doug. 25:29.33 Heather Or scope and cost. Yeah. 25:32.98 Doug So yeah I think that's one one of the key things to get across to people if if you're starting out with this is actually this is usually in most cases forming part of your contract. It's ah it's it's it'll be legally binding. Um so I. 25:41.10 Heather Who who. 25:41.20 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 25:47.64 Doug Gosh there are so many different ways of doing contracts and it may be 1 of the things where depending on the projects you on you your proposal might be rewritten in and a different contract taking words out of it saying you know you're delivering these things and stuff like that but especially on small projects and actually even like um ah. 25:59.11 Heather Um, not. 26:06.90 Doug A lot of places Now you know it'll differ from country to country but essentially even like a request for quote that essentially those emails back and forth form a contract between you and the individual. So if you have something small like that and you're getting a request for quotes always include a line about your terms and conditions. 26:13.34 archpodnet Ah. 26:23.74 Heather Oh. 26:25.88 Doug And like if you're if you're really if you're listening to this and you're like I don't have terms and conditions get terms and conditions like you need to have something that can form a contract that if your proposal goes forward. You don't necessarily want to include all those details about like oh we need to be paid on the sixth of of the month and stuff like that. But you do want to have something like terms and conditions that are included and even the smallest of um of quotes like ah especially like this is definitely more a Uk thing but you know it's very small projects maybe like ah you know a watching brief would be a monitoring job for maybe like a day or half a day or something like that. 27:00.26 archpodnet Yeah. 27:03.55 Doug You just get a farmer calls you up and's like oh I needed to have this done. Can you do it? Um, how much will it cost and you send back a quick quote. Um you need That's that's basically your your contract right? there. It's um, forming a legally binding aspect and if you're missing key parts of that it'll It'll be a huge pain later. 27:12.41 archpodnet Mother. 27:12.97 Heather 1 27:21.92 Doug Um, if something goes wrong. So yeah, just um, ah if I could drive one point home for our listeners. Um I guess viewers now as well listeners Slash viewers. Um, is that ah like if you're going to start doing this? Yeah, it's It's not something you could sort of. 27:22.00 Heather Yeah, yeah. 27:22.22 archpodnet Smith F. 27:40.69 Doug Slapped together. Um without any consideration because you you might be opening yourself up to a lot a world of pain and some sloppy language of something like um I've seen it happen to companies where basically they've got on the hook for everything They couldn't renegotiate anything they'd put it in some sloppy text. 27:41.67 archpodnet Right. 27:58.83 Heather And. 28:00.48 Doug Ah, because no one looked it over and basically it was they were going to do the project for that price and there was no renegotiation. Um, and yeah, it cost them a lot of money. 28:08.76 archpodnet You know in the last few minutes of this segment. Let's just talk about cost real quick here because again we talked about lowballing and sometimes you know sometimes to position yourself with the agency knowing that you can. You're just trying to get your foot in the door As long as you're not going to do that forever. 28:26.94 Heather What. 28:27.60 archpodnet That won't necessarily bring the industry down but it's hard for small companies to make that adjustment if they win they want to do everything low so they can continue and and they are you know small I guarantee you right now if a company is owned by say one person and there's no board of directors. There's no human resources Department. There's no anything like that. Then. I Don't care how many projects they're doing and what you're getting paid. They're sweating payroll every single week. They are not driving a bentley they are not. You know, living the high life. So How do we?? How do we? Well? Yeah, yeah for sure. How do we. 28:49.60 Heather Green. 28:54.84 Heather Even a few owners. Yeah. 29:00.91 archpodnet You know how do we do this? How do we say you know we we try to bid the right amount but we don't want to bid too much. We don't want a bid too little. How do you? You know? how do you? How do you deal with that I mean a company your size might be able to say take a hit on a project because you might be able to afford it maybe bigger companies can just to get your foot in the door right? Um, yeah. 29:15.14 Heather Um, right right? Looks like Doug has but him. 29:20.59 archpodnet And I'm sure that happens a lot to be honest, yeah Doug. 29:25.90 Doug So don't do it. Do not do that That is a that is a ah I'll speak from experience like it's It's a it's no, don't don't don't um because seriously what happens is you think oh they'll get to know you and stuff like that. 29:33.98 archpodnet Yeah. 29:41.62 Doug But literally like it's a huge thing. A huge thing in business. Um I've I've gone through training for this is part of what you do I know this this is gonna like it. It sucks when you're starting out and this is the hardest thing to learn is um, you can choose your clients. It doesn't feel like it. It. It won't feel like it. Um, especially when you're desperate and like you've had no work and you've got no jobs and you you really need something to to keep keep the lights on literally in some cases. Um, but you don't want those clients because those clients have basically hired you. 30:12.21 archpodnet M. 30:20.10 Doug Because you're the cheapest and they're always going to hire. Whoever's the cheapest so you will always lose out if someone is willing to go lower than you and what you want as a client is someone um they they'll definitely want value for money but they'll want the value as the key part so you want a client who's like. 30:20.70 archpodnet Yeah. 30:21.50 Heather More. 30:34.81 archpodnet So. 30:38.33 Doug Who can realize when they look at those at those things that we're not going to take that lowball that's half of everyone else's bid because we know that they're going to fail and we're just going to have to redo everything again as Heather was talking about earlier. How many contracts she gets from from companies like that and you want that but you actually want a client who can who can realize that things cost money and it's. 30:44.36 Heather Beginning. 30:48.10 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 30:58.21 Doug Better to do it right? The first time um and cheaper and that's that's who you want and so um, if you're always winning on being the cheapest it's going to just cause you so much pain because someone else is going to come in and be there's there's no loyalty. 31:09.96 archpodnet Sure. 31:13.37 Heather Well. 31:15.29 Doug And you you'd prefer a client that has loyalty um Loyalty may not be the right word. Um, but ah, that's that's the client you want is the one who will see that. Um, so yeah I would say at the very least it's going to be the hardest thing you're ever going to do. 31:20.40 archpodnet Yeah. 31:34.73 Doug Because you're you're going to look at it and looking at your bank account and seeing that negative ah balance and um, you're you're very desperate for work. But I could just say it's going to cause you more pain in the long run. 31:43.24 archpodnet Yeah, well I'll tell you. 31:44.76 Heather Yeah, yeah. 31:50.89 Doug Um, and it's going to cause you pain for decades. 31:52.22 archpodnet That I'll tell you every time I drive my £33000 r v over a new bridge I think this was built by the lowest bidder. So yeah, good. 31:52.72 Heather Was. 32:00.50 Heather Yeah that's true. Um, you know we call it buying work and I and I I do agree with Doug I do but there are some instances where buying work is okay, um, 1 thing you know 1 example. Is. You're both. Both companies are growing at the same rate or growing at the same time right? You're going, you're entering into a ah different area together. So let's say 1 example might be drones right? So you're doing um some aerial work lidar and you know some. 32:16.66 archpodnet More. 32:34.50 Heather There's various different disciplines within a larger environmental company or medium size like ours that um, where drones are helpful and um so the company your client needs that and you don't yet have it. That's not our case. 32:51.59 archpodnet Um, yeah, sure. 32:52.49 Heather But you don't yet have it. It was our case at 1 point so you don't yet have it and so you have a client who's willing to give you because based on the exact based on the experience they have with you and the relationship they have with you. They know they believe you're going to do a good job. They're goingnna you're going to do right by them. Um, and so maybe they. 33:03.70 archpodnet E. 33:11.42 Heather Purchase the equipment and then you doubt you know your your fees for labor are very low or nothing right? So you're growing together. So I do think in that instance buying work is a good idea. Um I've seen buying work work. 33:18.80 archpodnet Right. 33:28.60 Heather But with a small company and if you're doing with because you don't have any other work that I agree with Doug is wrong. But if you're trying to get into a new market buying work sometimes works. 33:39.10 archpodnet Yeah, all right? Well with that. Let's take our final break and on the other side we'll talk about what happens if you lose and or win the proposal. Well not and you you its gonna be 1 or the other let's talk about what happens in either case back in a minute. 33:51.28 Heather Um, living and. 33:55.27 archpodnet Welcome back to episode two seventy the serm archeology podcast and we're talking about proposals writing proposals and how do you prepare them and winning and losing proposals. So before we get into what happens if you do win or lose it. Let's talk about cost because we were talking about. Assumptions earlier and you know one of the biggest assumptions and obviously one of the biggest costs associated with a proposal is will I find any sites I mean that's all tied up in a payroll. That's your biggest cost but payroll's tied up and to how long is it going to take and how long is it going to take is getting tied up into how do I how many sites am I going to find and of course. You don't know how many you're going to find you have to do some sort of you know, either. You have familiarity with the area or some sort of preliminary lit search for free basically because you're not getting paid to do that and you have to say well, there's been a lot of stuff found in that valley next door. So I can probably assume there's going to be things found here I think we're going to find maybe 30 sites so I'm going to put that in my assumptions. But. 34:34.84 Heather Um, right. 34:47.57 archpodnet What are those sites worth how do you figure that out you know and how do you know if 1 ne's a twof like Lithic scatter and 1 is a you know mile-long mining site. You know how do you? How do you account for that. So let's hear it heather. How do you guys? do that. 34:51.42 Heather Will. 35:00.29 Heather Well I I mean I would say 80% of the proposals I write assume nothing's found and almost the only time that there's an assumption that sites will be found is either at the Rfp has that language in there. 35:06.26 archpodnet Yeah, okay. 35:15.88 archpodnet Yeah, sure. 35:17.87 Heather But they want you to scope for finding 3 sites that kind of thing or um or if you know you're in an area that's sensitive and and you just you know that's going going to happen and also you're you do have to judge your client. You have to Judge. You know is including that going to make a difference in whether or not, you're selected. So yeah, there's so many things to think about um as far as you know you really we have We have formulas that we believe each one of us has our own because based on your region. Like you can't say that I've heard of companies say okay, well digging a ah 1 by 1 for a data recovery costs this much money. Period. Well, it's going to cost different on the coast in the sand than it would. 36:01.91 archpodnet Ah. 36:12.75 archpodnet Sure. 36:13.44 Heather In the hard clay right? if you assume that your excavation is going to be the same no matter what your environment and what your type that soils that you're dealing with it's silly so you really have to know your area and so there is I I base it on. 36:22.96 archpodnet M. 36:32.50 Heather How many units and a lot of times it that you know what this requires you to do is ahead of time kind of get a bit of a quasi research design in place. Let's say if you're doing you know a data recovery or you're thinking you might have to do an evaluation so you have these these um costs. 36:40.95 archpodnet Honor. 36:52.10 Heather Ahead in your mind. Um I think I'll let that just sit there for the 2 of you and then we can talk about how do we take into account the different like labor categories. 37:02.97 archpodnet Well and along those lines I actually did lose a couple projects ah to be alm Nevada because and I talked to them. You know I was actually friends with a couple of agency people. So I was like just calling them up and say hey what's going on here but I did lose a few because you know I was. And still am heavy into digital archaeology right? and I understand the benefits of doing that right? I know how to do it right? and I know how to save actually a lot of money on the backend which means a lot of time and I actually lost a few projects because my bid was too low and yeah. 37:24.84 Heather And. 37:30.65 Heather I I was just just lost one because they said your bid was too low and I'm like what? yeah. 37:36.47 archpodnet Yeah I know so so you have to say you know even though you might be able to say let's let's say you're not lowballing. You're just more efficient that could happen right? Let's say you're just better at the other people that are doing this and you're saying I'm more efficient and we can do this and maybe you're ah a 1 person shop and and you've got people you know with you and it's just. 37:43.63 Heather Um, yes, yeah. 37:55.71 archpodnet That's how you operate but you can you still have to be competitive but you don't want to be you don't want to raise your rates up to to be too high of course because then you'll lose it. But then you're like and you don't know what low is you don't know what the low is I mean you can maybe guess but you don't know what that is you don't know what their error bars are because they are throwing out. 37:58.24 Heather Yes. 38:06.55 Heather Right. 38:12.45 archpodnet The low ones and they're throwing out the high ones and they're looking at everybody in the middle. So it's ah it's frustrating. 38:15.34 Heather But he so it is frustrating I think that what you need to do when you're writing a proposal and let's say you are going to be lower and I felt in this one that we just lost I asked why for some feedback they said you were too yours you were too low. Believe that you didn't understand the level of work that would be required to get this accomplished. Um, virtually like I I can think about this and learn from it I Personally think that they had the fix in they knew who they wanted and this was just an excuse. But. 38:39.90 archpodnet Ah cheese. Yeah. 38:47.88 archpodnet Sure. 38:52.99 Heather I Do think that when you are when you know even if you don't know that you're going to be lower than others having language in there that makes the client the potential client curious as to why your price is the way it is is a really good way. 39:08.42 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 39:11.98 Heather To hook them that other way so you have a low price and then also you have language in there that explains and makes them wonder oh wait a minute you they have a different approach here. They're not just trying a little Paul us. Yeah. 39:20.90 archpodnet Well they they get scared by different 2 sometimes what right because I did start including like paragraphs of data about my digital recording methods and because you always have to include methodology anyway, usually I mean sometimes but I would include here's how we're able to do things more efficiently here's all this. But. 39:32.85 Heather Yes. Um, yeah I know. 39:40.52 archpodnet Sometimes they just don't buy that either. They want pride and true and they want they want status quo. You know they don't They don't want to be the Guinea pig. 39:45.48 Heather Yeah, well then maybe that's where you follow your own advice. Maybe they're not the client for you? yeah. 39:49.99 archpodnet Exactly exactly doug. 39:54.93 Doug Um, I would say ah this is sort of a pet peeve I have in archeology is is Chris you were giving back all your efficiencies. Um, and this is what archeologists do? um we we instantly. 40:06.17 archpodnet Yeah. 40:11.99 Doug Like in other ah other disciplines other companies you pretty much even if you could do it cheaper. You still bid about the same if you're winning work at that amount you keep that and if you could suddenly do it for a third cheaper that third goes back into your pocket. Um. 40:28.31 archpodnet Sure yeah. 40:31.37 Doug Whereas archeologists yes and and well that's just it is like and this this goes back to our our discussions about wages and and archeology and stuff and um, you know that that efficiencies go to the company and then they can go out. 40:31.96 Heather Um, or the laborers pocket. Yeah. 40:47.73 Doug They could go to the you know whoever the owner is or they can go out to the labor and you know, um, that's that's ah, the system we work in. Um, you may not like it but it is the system we work in but that's just it. It's like instantly archaeologists are like oh well, we've now we've discovered a way of doing this. Ah. 40:48.20 archpodnet M. 41:00.22 archpodnet Um, yeah. 41:07.55 Doug A lot cheaper um take the example of like digital recording and pretty much without a doubt every archaeologist handed that money right back to their clients. Um and as opposed to taking it and with really low profit margins and I know again this is. We can't really jump into this in this shorter time. But you you absolutely need a profit margin or if you're a nonprofit a Surplus margin and that's there for like you know something bad happens and you need money or you need that money to invest like investing in the next level of digital tech or whatever. 41:35.13 archpodnet Ah. 41:37.26 archpodnet Sure. 41:42.98 Heather Um, look how. 41:44.81 Doug And you can't do that without ah a surplus. Um, ah unfortunately people are like oh 1 to 2% that's that's just enough. Um maybe five percent if we're feeling really really adventurous in archeology and I swear to god that's so many archaeologists are like that and you're like no like a minimum. 41:54.99 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 41:56.30 Heather Um, and. 42:02.61 Doug Um, if we're talking budgets that's something we haven't talked yet is like wherever you're putting in budget. You need to have a surplus and that's that's not contingency that is a surplus that is a profit and you should be aiming for I'd say a minimum of 10% um if not more. 42:08.44 archpodnet Yeah. 42:14.88 Heather Yes, agree. Yeah. 42:15.50 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and and you're you're totally not wrong and I definitely learn my lesson on that right? just like the atvs right? you learn you learn through experience what to put in there and like my last few projects that I did were pretty big I had partners with these and and I had to. 42:24.64 Heather Third. 42:34.49 archpodnet Even though I was I was lower and my client but long-term client I had for a decade. She just came up with these huge projects we had to do and I needed to bring in help for it and you know we all divided and conquercored but in order to put together. You know, pricing that they would understand I actually had to raise my rates up to come up to the other guys because they weren't nearly as low but I was still making a profit but. Because I had to raise my rates up I was making a massive profit and I was taking that and I was I had really good wages I had really good per Dm. We went out to dinner every session and my company paid for it. You know we we just did all these fun things. Um, along with the project. But then again like you're saying Doug and and heather you know this too even a small company even if you're just. 1 person if you have payroll even if that's only 1 person you need to expect to have 20 to $30000 in the bank because you're not going to be able to pay them because you're not going to get paid for that project until it's done in most cases. So you you have to be able to cover that so you do need the surplus like Doug was saying. 43:26.41 Heather Um, right? Yeah yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah I I want to talk just a little bit about um, you know what I know we've talked about it on the show before but what. 43:32.67 archpodnet Ahead. Hitler. 43:42.75 Heather What goes in what's the difference between hourly and the billing rate so and and also when we're looking at Proposals Let's say we're looking at ah an um, a side evaluation. So a mid-level effort and. 43:43.20 archpodnet Ah. Yes, yeah, That's the biggest thing. 43:54.58 archpodnet Yeah. 44:00.12 Heather You have to look at you have to anticipate. Okay, how? Um how many excavations do I need to do um, sometimes it's already in the rfp sometimes that's something you have to create um and these are other things that you know like Doug and and Chris you're saying about things that you're building in. Writing a proposal takes hours. That's time that you are expending and that's something you're having to float now. Sometimes if you're smart, you're writing these things up with the idea that they can be easily shifted into the actual report a lot of this language. Can you know can work that way. 44:22.21 archpodnet Yeah. 44:37.55 Heather But it's still a lot of effort that you're not getting paid for and that could just be for nothing. You know if you don't win. So so anyway, so let's look at you know when we're when we're looking at writing a proposal we have to. It's not just about this is how many um. 44:41.19 archpodnet Yeah. 44:54.31 Heather Is how many excavation units we have to do you have to look at. Okay, so let's say we have five Excavation units How many would I anticipate how many crew supervisors would I anticipate that I need and how many um archeological technicians that are just going to be excavating how many of those do I need how much last time do I need. 45:12.49 archpodnet Ah. 45:13.85 Heather And so it's not just a number you are dividing this number up into how many hours for each person so you know I think sometimes people don't realize that when a company is hiring for an effort. They have only so many crew supervisor positions. And only so many you know project lead positions. Maybe just one and then you have this many labor positions and so you know people are like well how come I'm you know I got I'm I'm being hired no problem at $20 an hour 45:36.56 archpodnet Me. 45:51.63 Heather But then when I start getting bumped up and I'm making $30 an hour. How come I'm you know how come I'm not getting hired as much because there's fewer. There's fewer roles for somebody that's getting paid at that at that rate and it's not because the company is being cheap on you. It's because they already have those crew supervising. 45:58.84 archpodnet Um, yeah. 46:10.71 Heather Physicians are filled what they need right? now are more excavators so you know I think that that is 1 thing to understand and you know your billing rate is typically triple. Um, you know triple what you're paying the person sometimes. Ah. 46:12.91 archpodnet Um, ah right. 46:25.38 archpodnet Yeah, and I would say. 46:29.30 Heather Or sometimes it could be more depending on your billing rates so billing rates are not an exact triple. Usually you have billing rates and especially when you're writing proposals sometimes companies agencies will require that you give your set billing rates your fee schedule so you have to stick to those. 46:34.36 archpodnet Um, yeah. 46:46.20 archpodnet Sure yeah I mean on the billing rate I would say that the bigger the company the the higher the multiplier right? So if you're if you're getting paid $30 an hour and your billing rate is triple that means they're charging $90 an hour for you and a lot of people are like. 46:48.70 Heather And so people have to fit within those you're going to say something Chris. 46:57.90 Heather Um, but no. 47:04.17 archpodnet Where the hell is that other $60 going and I'm like the bigger the company the more non-billable people you have right? like you have hr you have the safety department. You have you know all kinds of different people. You have people checking your proposals. You can't charge that against a project in most spaces. 47:05.91 Heather Um, will be. 47:08.44 Heather Yes. 47:13.95 Heather Yes, you know you have you have overhead so we just our company you know companies need to calculate overhead your overhead percentage I mean that's required and so you know that's an eye opener when you think about that. 47:23.10 archpodnet Yeah. 47:26.87 archpodnet For sure. 47:33.61 Heather It's also you know you have buildings you have you know you have property that a larger companies have I mean these are all things that are insurance. These are all things that are necessary and and so that triple I would say 10% profit like Doug was saying and sometimes less. 47:38.67 archpodnet Taxes insurance. Yeah. 47:52.43 Heather Sometimes a little bit more but 10 percent profit is pretty much what what a company gets after everything is so said and done so that triple multiplier is covering so much so much more than what than just it's not just you know $60 going into the pocket of of the client or I may add the company. 47:57.41 archpodnet Um, yeah. 48:07.31 archpodnet Right? right? Yeah for sure Doug. 48:11.52 Heather Done. 48:12.64 Doug Yeah, it also mentioned I think we chose to mention that depending on the organization you work with there could be multiple budgets so you could have potentially a the project budget that you put together and then depending on your company. You can have an internal budget and. 48:29.60 archpodnet Mother. 48:32.44 Doug That can that can be very frustrating because a lot of times what will happen is as we're mentioned. There's there's people on those higher overheads those those those ah pis those project managers that um, they need to be able to find a place to charge their time. And sometimes they get like internally will get dropped on your project so you would have been perfectly on budget. You've got the perfect project everything works fine and then suddenly you know two days of project manager time is dropped on your budget and it makes it look like you've gone over budget and um. 48:58.54 Heather Whoo. So. 49:08.44 Doug It It could be quite frustrating to try to work those internal politics of an organization. Um, because you know you're trying to prove that you can do a project on time and there is a budget that just says no you you didn't do that. But it's not your fault. It's it'll be an internal thing but just to be aware that like um. 49:21.30 archpodnet Right. 49:28.12 Doug Yeah there a lot of times you'll have 2 projects go up 2 budgets and and 1 is what you put in your proposal and the ones the other one's internal one which may not line up. Um and that could be quite frustrating if you're new to that sort of ah situation. 49:35.19 Heather Now. 49:39.50 archpodnet Um, sure. 49:42.96 Heather Yeah, yeah, and I think I mean I think that's a really good point. Our company and I think most most companies um have larger companies have a ah utilization expectation. So. Out of the 40 hours that you week work. They expect you to bill 80% Let's say that's ah, that's a high utilization that's more for somebody who is a you know who's really a labor and then you have management where your. 50:04.36 archpodnet Ah. 50:13.79 Heather Billability is is lower than that. But then your billing rate is higher. Um, and exactly what Doug is saying although I don't typically have that issue but I could see how that could happen. Um, and but what so why are we having managers that are at a higher billing rate and are. You know, billing with a lower utilization when the laborers are expected to be the technicians are expected to be at 100 % utilization how is that fair, but those are you know the managers many times. Not all of them are created equal many of them are not. But. 50:40.90 archpodnet Yeah. 50:51.13 Heather A good manager knows how to bring the work in and there's a difference between I mean we see this all the time where people are getting laid off in smaller companies. Um, you have 1 person that 1 person may have a really great connection with a few people but they're only 1 person. Ah, larger company that you have the more connections that you have and the more consistency of work that you have and so you know those managers if let's just assume that their good managers are worth their cost for sure. Is there the ones that are continuing to bring in money. 51:21.38 archpodnet Oh. 51:26.76 Heather You know in clients and ensuring that everyone else still has work and isn't going to get laid off Doug. 51:30.16 archpodnet Yeah, go ahead that. 51:36.70 Doug Yeah, so um, I was just going to sort of bring us back um to the whole idea of of ah what Heather was saying is you're making assumptions about what you're going to find um and that's how you're putting together your your budget. Um, and then that budget is what goes out to um, you know the people reviewing and for anyone listening to the podcast who um are reviewing not all those assumptions are always transparent to the people reviewing because yeah, we have a lot of consultants who will be like yeah yeah I put out. I got 3 tenders back 2 are in the same ballpark and one was just completely out there and we're like why they even bother. Um, but you know some of that some of that is people are putting in tenders hoping not to get the work but want to keep that relationship up with the client. 52:23.43 Heather A. 52:25.59 Doug Um, but some of it is actually they've made some assumptions and that's that's what they think it will cost and it may very well cost that amount. Um, and that's it goes back to the sort of you know, winning and losing I know. Ended the last segment with ah Chris saying you know there's only 2 things you could do win and lose I would say this more because there's there's there's winning but in the long run losing like like there's this contracts on paper you've won. But really, you've you've lost. 52:57.94 archpodnet No no. 52:59.58 Doug Um, and it's going to hurt when you find stuff and you're you're under budget. Um, and you don't have the resources to do it and that's coming out. Um, and then there's there. There's there's losing but in the long run run ah winning in that you you didn't get that project. But then that project ends up to being a hellscape. Um, you know. 53:03.92 archpodnet Yeah. 53:17.59 archpodnet Yeah. 53:19.49 Heather Oh. 53:19.52 Doug Absolutely horrible that would have ruined your life and taken you know 10 years off of it. Um, so so this there's ah on paper they'll be winning and losing but um, actually it's much later that you figure out if you've actually won or not um and sometimes you don't. 53:32.65 archpodnet Indeed. 53:34.88 Heather I think you know sometimes you lose i'vepad this happened too where you're getting a lot of work from an agency and they don't want there to be a perception that their the fix is in and that they're going to always use you and so sometimes they actually know. That they have another project that's coming up that they really think you as a company would do really great with and they want you on that project. They may not select you for a project. You're proposing on and so you just cannot take it personally but you always want to learn from it. Um, there's ways to do that. But you always want to learn from a loss and a win. You know? Um, but understand that it you know it's business. You're not going to win everything you propose for and honestly like my my team's always like Heather stop. 54:25.90 Heather We win a lot. Actually we do we our our win percentage is very high. Um, it's because of the relationships that we have but um, you know sometimes on the two like Heather can you stop proposing projects because like you, there's only so much you can do and that's the other thing is that. 54:27.84 archpodnet Um, yeah. 54:43.95 Heather You know when you have a good relationship with the client. You do not want to put that in Jeopardy by just haphazardly proposing on everything right? you have to have some discipline otherwise you are going to shortchang your good clients and then then where you're going to be. Yeah. 54:50.45 archpodnet Yeah. 54:57.43 archpodnet Sure. 55:00.78 Doug That's actually like number 1 thing from consultants to come back is actually they wish people would just instead of bidding and wasting everyone's time they wish people would just come to them and say listen we're we're not in a position to do this project or we don't think we can do it if you need the three bids to. You know, get through whatever internal thing we'll we'll throw in 1 if you absolutely need it. But if not, we'd like to skip that one and actually consultants and the people reviewing it much appreciate that because yeah, but you have to you have to have that. Um there's a lot of fear in archeology and a lot of people fear that if they're not bidding then they're. 55:24.87 Heather Appreciate that get turn. 55:34.92 Doug And they're going to get passed up or they're not going to get that opportunity next time like if they pass on a not necessarily a public ah tender. But if someone came to them um with ah a sort of private you know, um, request they always feel that they have the obligation to go forward with it and sometimes that's not the best thing and honesty. Definitely. 55:51.25 archpodnet Oh. 55:54.80 Doug Will help that relationship. Um, and and back to what Heather was saying also is like ah yeah, talk to people who who do these reviews and and assign it. Um, you'll find out like sometimes especially for like small projects so they'll throw it to someone new. 56:08.70 Heather Only. 56:08.77 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 56:10.59 Doug Um, not, they're normal people because they want to sort of have a variety and they want to see how they're these new people are going to do and they'll test them out on smaller projects and you you you could have had a much better Proposal. You could have been Cheaper. You could everything could have been better. But. It's not necessarily about that from the client's point of view or they're they're just wanting to you know test out they have a lot of work and they're like we'll see how these people do and maybe we can bump them up and you know if they're quality and it's it's testing out. Um, there's other things you know, federal contracts you get the. 56:34.84 archpodnet Yeah. 56:41.53 Heather Behold. 56:46.79 Doug Women owned and minority owned business points or veteran points. Um I'm not saying I actually think that's a good thing but again, that's something that you can't always control. Um, there'll be I've been on a project where there was 2 2 sections of it. We bidded for both I think our bid was. Ah, much better because we actually anticipated um that the 2 parts would have to work together but they weren't the ah client wasn't willing to internally they couldn't give both to one company so they split it up. Um, that project went sideways because the other company that got the other side of it. 57:18.62 archpodnet Rent. 57:26.57 Doug Hadn't actually anticipated working um across the 2 2 aspects and that I think those extra 10 grand I mean that's not a lot of money but you know is is a fair chunk that just had to be instant with the contract put out before the project even started. They had to redo the budget because. 57:28.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 57:44.70 Doug Um, they hadn't actually anticipated that but they couldn't They couldn't give that we had but they couldn't give us the both aspects of the of the contract. So there's man. There's so many different ways you could lose a contract or win a contract. Um, and I think that's if I could end with. 57:50.37 archpodnet Um, yeah. 57:58.80 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 58:02.85 Doug Because you won don't Ah, we're we're talking about learning experiences but you really need to make sure you absolutely understand because there's a um, a tendency if you won to think that you're actually doing things right? and it may actually be you won You were actually the worst option. But. They were other mitigating factors that made sure that you got it. Um, and you I would recommend if you win or lose a contract always contact the people if if they're willing to give feedback. Not all, not everyone has the time or ability to and get that feedback. Um, you shouldn't assume you've won it. 58:24.82 archpodnet Yeah. 58:40.56 Doug Um, and that you could should keep doing what you're doing because it could have been a different different aspect. 58:43.84 archpodnet Yeah, okay, well, you're getting into what we want to talk about next time because we didn't really get it to talk about this time you know, winning and losing and stuff like that. We we had a lot more to talk about. So I think we might push out to the next episode I'll take some notes on on what we didn't get to and and we might push this to a proposals part 2 58:51.55 Heather Um, and if the. 59:03.47 archpodnet On the next episode of the serum archaeology podcast. So with that I think we'll say goodbye. Thanks Heather for all the fantastic information. Thanks Doug for the input and we will see you guys next time all right? we go thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 59:07.63 Heather Yes. Hi everyone. 59:21.90 Heather By everybody. Sorry. 59:22.43 Doug Goodbye Oh Heather No, you can't give him a good one.