00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is ander with his coffee mug in California. 00:06.75 Andrew What's up y'all nice to be back. 00:10.47 Heather Um, well back with my copy man. 00:10.54 archpodnet Heather's back in the kitchen also in California with your coffee mug and we've also got doug in Scotland presumably with like tea or something. 00:17.26 Doug Yeah, no man I don't do that I don't mess I don't mess with tea I don't mess with coffee. You know, only hard drugs for me. 00:21.40 Andrew Um. 00:25.80 Andrew What. 00:26.14 Heather What the. 00:27.35 archpodnet What only our trucks. Nice nice. Well as you may assume we are if you're listening to the audio of this which I'm I'm assuming you are because our numbers on Youtube are not like super high but we are recording video except for Doug he stays mysterious for you know. Plausible deniability and and a nominity but that's a tough word to say anyway, we are on video and we are publishing these to the archaeology podcast network Youtube channel so if you want to see a relatively unedited version of this although I've I've come up with a way to possibly get the video and the audio edited at the same time. So. 00:49.62 Heather Um. 01:06.59 archpodnet These might these might get a little bit more cleaned up on the Youtube side of things but either way hopefully we ah you know don't make too many mistakes because I'm probably not doing that for this episode but we'll see so last week if you missed it. We discussed proposals episode 271 go check that out. We'll link to it in the show notes. But we had so much to talk about that. We only got through a little over half of our bullet points of the things we actually wanted to talk about so. It'll be fun to you know continue this conversation because there was so much more to talk about so many more things we wanted to say and we're just going to. We're just going to kick that off right now. So. I mean I've got the first bullet point up here but is there anything just maybe from Andrew I know you listened to the episode because you weren't on last week because you were on a ah a photo shoot probably or some sort of talent scouting trip in Hawaii or something I don't really know. 01:46.56 Andrew Are. 01:54.27 Andrew You know the calendar has to come out at some point so I got to get ready for that. You know it's tough. Ah. 01:55.25 Heather Um, yeah, you. 02:00.63 archpodnet Right? right? right? But do either of you guys have have any initial comments just maybe off of off of last week's episode or we just want to head right into it. 02:07.21 Andrew Sure I just have a quick comment to say um I listened to the episode yesterday and um I thought it was great. This is the kind of episode that I think the ah c rm podcast is made for. 02:22.35 archpodnet Yeah. 02:23.61 Andrew You know the the what is the proposal thing this that last episode I'm definitely going to have my students listen to because it it kind of takes the wool off your eyes. It's like this is the why of the project. You know this is everything boils down to this. It Answers So many questions like why are we getting paid So little you know, Um, why is this project doing this hey we found this thing. Why don't we move over here. Why don't we look at that other hillside. It's it's like hey man look at the proposal. The proposal is your map. To what you must do So I Just thought was great. 03:01.68 archpodnet Nice, nice, all right heat there any any any comments off of last week or things you want to start with? yeah okay and doug. 03:07.77 Heather No no I think we'll cover it in this in this episode. Yep. 03:16.21 archpodnet Doug's muted I assume if he had something to say he wouldn't be but I can't see him so I don't know Doug all right all right? So one of the things we didn't really get to talk about and this is the first point we have from last week was what do you do? if you when you lose a proposal we I mean we kind of touched on it. A little bit. 03:19.27 Doug Now I'm good I'm good. 03:33.77 archpodnet You know, going back to the agency and and and figuring out why you lost the proposal if they'll if they'll tell you that if it's a private company. They may not tell you that. But if it's an agency they likely will but what? what can we do to I don't know strengthen our proposals for next time or or just learn from that experience. Heather. 03:51.74 Heather You know, no no I don't lose any bits. Ah I Actually yeah I mean you you all I think I'm proud to say I have a pretty good win rate. 03:52.29 archpodnet As anybody who's written proposals. You've probably lost more than you've won. That's just how it goes so you know everybody? Ah right right. 04:08.80 archpodnet E. 04:08.20 Heather But um, you do Yeah, of course you're going to lose it. In fact, we talked about it the last time and sometimes it boggles your mind that you lose I mean we were just I said an example of the last episode is that I lost because my bid was too low that. But so frustrating because the you know the agency said well we think that you didn't have a grasp on you know what? the actual task was because you're because you're you're um, you know your bid was so low and I was they said you're you know you're. 04:28.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:41.57 archpodnet Yeah. 04:43.92 Heather Um, your scope was great. The the proposal was great. It was well thought out but you were too low so we don't think you truly know what it takes to get this to make this happen I'm like that's only because you've been trained by people who have been so I was so scamming you but you've been trained by people that have. Um, elevated the price to a point they're working with outdated I think a lot of a lot of serum firms are working with outdated um, strategies right? and they're not using Technologies Now we did talk about this in the last episode and that is sometimes you know. 05:16.19 archpodnet Man. 05:23.80 Heather Passing those efficiencies that you have you know, um, developed over time is a good thing is a good way of you know, kind of you meet in the middle ground I Don't think you stay with the same price necessarily because you do need to be competitive in the market. But I think that having. You know you've worked hard to create and develop these efficiencies that I think somewhere in the middle right? Um, bringing your price down enough so that you still you have some more room you can pay people more and and whatnot. But I think that um. 05:48.49 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:59.91 Heather I don't think you should stay at the same price necessarily because eventually youre you are going to be worked out of the market I mean it's um, so but that was really it was frustrating. It was a learning experience. Um, and one of that 1 aspect that I learned there is that you have to really know the agencies that you're. 06:07.70 archpodnet Um, right. 06:19.70 Heather Posing for um, you have to know what it is that they are looking for what their little idiosyncrasies are um, you also have to understand Sometimes it's not even worth bidding on a project because you know that they have their shoo in company that they want to use and in fact. 06:20.23 archpodnet Sure. 06:37.91 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:38.94 Heather That's what I think really happened there I was told that we were too low. They couldn't criticize anything anything else about our proposal but that's what they say is that we were too low I think it's because they had already decided to either they were gonna hire but they had to put the bid out and so that was their excuse for not. For not selecting us because the the the company that got Hired. It's the same company they work for over and over again and we could talk about that as far as when do you decide to bid and when do you decide to Decline. But. 07:03.98 archpodnet Sure. 07:13.50 archpodnet Well one of the things that really frustrates me about all that is I wish I wish agencies Honestly I don't know why there's so much cloak and Dagger to be honest with you. It's ah, especially with the public agencies right? like blm forest service some of the others military stuff like that I mean if there is a threshold a low and a high. 07:25.53 Heather Um, yeah. 07:30.50 archpodnet I Mean publish it with the requirements. You know what I'm saying like look literally if you're over this. We're not going to give it to you if you're under this. We don't think you can do it. But if you can justify why you think you can right? and and it's just like why some do you write some? do yeah but but more often than not they don't and and you just kind of have to guess that you're. 07:33.10 Heather Um, yeah. 07:40.74 Heather Um, I'll do some do actually you yeah hang in it. 07:48.86 archpodnet That you're that you're in line with everybody else and that you're not either either blowing it out or you're not charging enough right? So um anyway I Just wish they would do that. But I think my big feedback from losing proposals is you know I mean if you if you win a lot. You might take this a little differently. But if you're like most small companies just starting out. 07:53.20 Heather Right. 08:08.66 archpodnet And you're you know you're winning 10% of the proposals that you write literally don't let it don't let it bother you learn from it move on and write the next one. You know what I mean and and also be be careful about writing too many at the same time because I mean you might win more than one and then you're really in trouble. Ah. 08:12.29 Heather Um, yes for that? Yes, yeah. 08:22.93 Andrew Yeah, yeah, that was gonna be that was gonna be my question have you guys ever? been surprised when you won you know when you were sort of planning to not. You're like this ain't gonna work and then you're like oh oh whoa. 08:24.62 Heather Um, yeah, yeah. 08:26.12 archpodnet I Mean for small companies. 08:34.46 archpodnet Um. 08:39.28 Andrew I Guess we're doing this has has that happened to you guys? yeah. 08:41.15 archpodnet No no of course not because that's how proposal writing works you like so damn right? I won that project exactly guys. Ah. 08:48.40 Heather Yeah, no we that I I I can distinctly remember I can I can distinct distinctly remember a few times where I've sat back and like oh my goodness we won Now what do we do? Yeah, it's um. 08:49.21 Doug Yeah I'd signal for the real world. 08:54.65 Andrew Um, yeah. 09:01.54 archpodnet Yeah. 09:03.13 Andrew Um, right. 09:03.77 Heather There are times where you did and you're doing it for the exercise of it for the practice of it for learning Actually sometimes you're you know you're putting out the hook to get an idea for the next time. How are you going to strategize right. 09:10.80 archpodnet Um. 09:10.23 Andrew Um. 09:16.89 archpodnet Yeah. 09:19.32 Heather So sometimes you know you're not going to win a proposal or you expect you don't expect to win a proposal but you're learning about the agency because you want to win the proposal proposals in the future and so you're kind of just practicing with that agency and and so when you win there have been a couple times we win. We're like oh boy, you know because that's your. 09:19.50 Andrew Right? right. 09:35.19 archpodnet Um. 09:38.82 Heather Especially if you've never worked with them before this is your one opportunity really show what you got now you know and that pressure is a little um you know, unnerving sometimes because you feel like you have one chance to to really knock it out of the park or you don't get a chance with the agency again. So. 09:43.74 Andrew Um. 09:55.17 Andrew Um, right. 09:55.36 archpodnet Yeah, you know just I do have one you know being all serious that that we did win that was that was a little bit shocking and it was the biggest project my company. Well I guess now it's the second biggest project my company has ever done. But. It was when I was this a sub for another big company in Southern California that won that 5 year idiq and the the only thing I really got out of that they did a bunch of small stuff after this, but we won back-to-back that had to be basically done in the same year a fifteen thousand acre survey in El Centralro California followed immediately by a thirty thousand acre survey at China lake naval weapons center and like I said I'm a small company. Usually I've got one. Maybe you know few other people but I had to have like 8 people and the vehicles and I went from like zero to a thousand percent ah you know in in. a very short period of time I mean I had to get a loan initially to cover payroll I just didn't have the money in the bank and then you know I worked with the company to basically let me invoice them so I could just turn right around and give it to my employees as per Dm and and payroll and it was ah was a little stressful but winning those two back-to-back was. I knew I knew we had a good chance of getting something but I didn't know it's going to be that big. You know what I mean that was a tough year. Yeah Doug go ahead. 11:08.46 Andrew Right? right? sure. 11:15.34 Doug Yeah, back to the comment of like I I would say in my experience. There's very little correlation for the amount of work you put into a um bid and the ones you actually win or lose. And the sense of like there'll be ones where you're like yes you spent days you thought I was the most perfect 1 No don't get it. There's other ones where you sort of toss in that boilerplate and you're like yeah I mean it's not bad. So I'd say like I've never had 1 of those like sort of hail mary like. 11:30.40 archpodnet Um. 11:46.40 Doug Oh we have 2 hours to do this. Let's just throw something together. It's complete crap. Um, usually we we don't do that last minute stuff like if we're not going to be able to do a good proposal. We don't usually do the hail mary because it it just it doesn't usually work. Um, and so ah. 11:47.48 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:59.74 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 12:04.40 Doug Yeah, usually don't do that. So but again, there's like we we put in I'd say Ah, if we're going to do a Proposal. We'll do a decent proposal but like on that scale of like decent to like oh man this is the most perfect proposal I've ever put In. Um. There's no correlation of like you know our win losss ratio on like that. So um, yeah, it's not quite that like we've put in crap ones and they're surprised when we get it. There's ones that we put in that we're like oh would be nice if we get it and then we get it and that's great. 12:24.18 archpodnet Oh. 12:34.31 Andrew Yeah. 12:36.36 Doug And there's others that were like oh yes, we should definitely get this. We did so much and we don't but it's not quite that sort of that same level that you guys are discussing. 12:39.29 Andrew Right? right? now that was the base of my question just because I've had those kind of experiences in proposals in the academic world. You know where you do it and you do your due diligence. You do it Well but you're like I got like an 11% chance of getting this you know and then you put your resources kind of somewhere else. And then you have to back to he like well whoa wait. We have to know we do have an extra two weeks over here or you know whatever it may be so I just I like that sort of behind the scenes story of you know, sometimes sometimes you lose when you think you're going to win and win when you think you're going to lose. 13:11.85 Doug And sometimes you just I mean you usually don't know the the odds going in as well. So you don't know who's going to be bidding and you know how many proposals and sometimes you find that out when they let you know they're like oh yeah, we had 25 people and. 13:12.14 archpodnet Um, yeah, other. 13:13.78 Heather Um, um. 13:29.32 Heather Um, with my. 13:31.36 Doug You were like number 23 or 2 2 is the second is the worst um, ah or yeah we had 2 and you number 2 which also stings a lot as well. Um, but yeah, like ah you really? It's really sometimes hard to guess those odds unless you know. 13:31.98 archpodnet If you write you the first loser. 13:41.88 Heather Um, for. 13:49.72 Heather Um. 13:49.84 Doug You know it really? well as Heather was talking about and you get to really know whoever's putting out that tender. Um, and then you start to get a feel of what they like and who's likely to get it. Um, but for the most part. Yeah, sometimes you just. 14:01.83 archpodnet Now. 14:06.00 Doug I've gotten projects where they're like well we put out tender and you're the only one that put in ah, a usable tender so you got it and that's always a nice feeling as well. 14:12.44 archpodnet Yeah Heather final comment before we go to break? yeah. 14:15.82 Heather I yeah I would say that um, ah yeah I agree with Doug there is little correlation between what you win and the effort you put into it typically um, but you know there's we're not talking right now we're trying talking about agency bids where. Really do have to look at um, the various you know proposals that they get and they have to have a certain amount of proposals typically that come in sometimes they don't have enough. Um that come in and they have to reissue the ah Rfp. Um, but. Then there's also the proposals that you do where you have a very good client relationship and you're churning out these proposals and you're winning them and those that is sometimes that's the smaller work. But that's your bread and butter that keeps you going while you know you're waiting for those bigger. 14:53.57 archpodnet Yeah. 15:07.90 Heather Opportunity. So those those ones where you have a really good relationship with the with the client. You know you don't mess with the the formula that you have and those are quick and the effort that you've put into the proposal is a lot less um than these other larger proposals. So. 15:24.30 archpodnet Right? All right? Well with that. Let's take a break. Yeah, with that. Let's take a break and we'll come back and and keep talking about this on the other side back in a minute. Yeah, appreciate it. 15:26.20 Heather And they're easier to win. Yeah, right. 15:33.86 Heather You in between so that the background you don't have too much trouble but I'm not talking. Yeah. 15:43.30 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 73 of the serum archeology podcast and we are continuing our discussion on proposals from episode two seventy so again if you haven't heard that go take a listen It's pretty good. Awesome information and Andrew you started off by telling us you know having your students listen to this. It really is good information and I think you mentioned. Kimmer if was on this recording or not that you know as a professor I mean you don't you haven't had a chance to write a lot of the proposals that we're talking about but it made me think grant writing that's not a whole lot different and you've probably written tons of those you know. 16:15.32 Andrew No, it's it's hilariously similar like and I have done some proposals too. But again not in the um, super organized Crm way as you guys you guys know what I mean you know like in that sort of fill in the blank. Yeah yeah, extremely structured way. 16:19.73 archpodnet Um, right. 16:24.77 archpodnet Sure, Yeah, yeah, structured. 16:32.86 Andrew But ah, it's all the same. It's all these basic things like know your audience you know that you have to know the audience of the um of the grant I was thinking of 1 I swear there was this one grant it should have been called we give Andrew King Kella money grant 16:36.95 archpodnet Yeah. 16:50.43 Andrew Because it was exactly what I do right? I was like oh I'm going to get this and just like you guys said I put a lot of work into it I tried really hard and I didn't get it and I was like what what did I not do you know like it I was shocked but then on the other side there was this other grant where I was like dude I got like again you know. 14 % chance and then I I put it in and I got it. You know surprisingly so although the output is different being at you know a grant or a proposal that the the setup's the same the knowledge of audience is the same the doing your own due diligence is the same so it's it's a. 17:19.62 archpodnet Yeah. 17:26.70 archpodnet The. 17:29.19 Andrew It's a very similar ride. You know on. Ah, both of those things. 17:33.24 archpodnet Um, yeah, Doug. 17:37.40 Doug And um I was just going to talk to because you will will probably have you know some listeners who are maybe in grad school. Um, maybe get involved in that sort of aspect of of doing grant writing and then move on into Crm. Or as the way is going with academia probably half of them are going to have to end up in Crm anyways, um, but ah, it's 1 thing to sort of think about is ah Andrew has definitely talked about like it is fairly similar I'd say the biggest difference. Um and this is huge in key. 17:57.91 archpodnet E. 18:13.40 Doug Is that Um, when you're doing and we discussed this earlier and it's it's sort of a running theme about like you want to be inventive but you don't want to be too inventive whereas in academic ah grant writing you basically need to come up with um, ah your own sort of proposal. 18:22.48 archpodnet All right. 18:31.92 Doug And there's a much narrower range that you have when you're doing crm. Um, um, and that and then it will depend on the funder as well. some are like yes definitely we like this creativeness and some are like nope um I've told you exactly what I want I want these many trenches or this much area surveyed this way. If you deviate even like a millisecond off of that timing I've given you we're throwing away your proposal. So ah, it tends to be a lot tighter in the range of what you can do I've seen this happen I think it could be ah, a hard transition for some people who've gone for writing pro you know. With grants and for academia there there'll usually be some sort of guidelines and you sort of have to be there. But you're you're basically writing a whole new project from scratch and you have a much higher level of control. Um, and I've seen a lot of people run into a lot of trouble. Um, there was definitely um, a. Recently one of the few cases with the cefo which is the Uk's sort of equivalent to rpa actually kicking someone out because basically they they used they treated a commercial project like their own personal research project. Um, and charged their client for it for things that they weren't supposed to be doing um and they got complained against and then um, they did it again and got kicked out. But um, yeah's ah, I'd say the biggest difference is a lot of it is almost exactly the same you have to have a budget you have to have timings you have to have. 20:01.67 Doug Why we're doing this. Everything's very similar maybe slightly different wording different slightly different headings but very similar but the biggest difference I would say is it's much narrower in the range of what you can do um in most cases. Occasionally, you do get a client who's just like yeah here's some money. 20:20.93 Doug Do make magic happen. Um, but that rarely happens. 20:23.85 archpodnet Yeah, another go ahead. 20:30.31 Heather I um, remember I'm on mute. Um, yeah I mean I think I think it depends on I would say probably 60 to 70% of the proposals that I write um the client's trusting that I know what needs to happen. So um I would say the even more than that I would say maybe 70 or 75% I think only 25% at least for me of the proposals now. Of course you know Doug you're but you're working. Um, you're not working in the Us but um, so it might be different but you know they're relying on us. To be the experts and to know what is required. There's a lot of pushback. It happens a lot on a regular basis actually and maybe that's because I work more with private clients. But um, there is so lot of pushback. They're like exactly why do I have to do this and so there's you know that it. I enjoy those questions because it allows you and I think there's you know one good point to bring up it allows you the opportunity to create a relationship their client or your perspective client. So you know you have to tread lightly but there are good clients and and good business people are looking at the bottom line. Ah, exactly what do I have to do and they are very skeptical I've come across a lot of clients are very skeptical that really is this something we really need to do um because there are a lot of there's I can think of several companies right now in our area that that really crew. 22:01.50 Heather You know, create scenarios for clients that are not really necessary where they're having them do work that they really don't need to have them do so um I think that you know it's an opportunity as a professional to create a relationship. 22:07.97 archpodnet Here. 22:18.15 Heather When you get a question from a client and that is something that I think is also ah something we should talk about is you know sometimes it's not just you submit the proposal and then you either get a yes or a no sometimes there is this liminal state in between where you're you're kind of you're interviewing Sometimes there's formal interview process. Sometimes. There is a back and forth with the client because they're really trying to figure out it. Wow like I was thinking was going to cost 20000 and you came back with a $100000 bid and maybe this is something I need to do but is it really something I need to do and so you know having those conversations are are difficult. Um. 22:54.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 22:57.65 Heather Because you have to know what you're talking about and they also have to be able to communicate in a layman's term but it is a really good opportunity to develop a relationship with a C with the client. Um I have a few more things to say but I'll leave it open to everybody else. 23:14.17 archpodnet Yeah I mean you're you're not wrong, especially if you're not dealing with an agency right? Agencies usually have a pretty good handle I think on what it might cost or what the effort will be for a certain area. You know they're they're really into it They they've done lots of these or they they have a historical backlog to look at. But. 23:18.56 Heather The year 23:31.93 archpodnet You know, especially in places like California where there's a lot of you know, just a lot of private archeology going on because of the laws and and regulations there. Yeah, you might be dealing with somebody that's never had to do a cultural resources assessment before or you know has very little experience with it and again what Andrew said and I think what you've also said heather is is looking knowing your audience right? and if you. 23:36.43 Heather You will. 23:51.28 Heather Um, you might. 23:51.83 archpodnet If your audience is some small-time developer. You don't don't talk to them like they're a blm um archeologist right? Talk to them like like they possibly don't know what they're talking about and be like hey so I'll send you this proposal but just so you know this is probably the things that are going to have to be done and you know are you guys you know? are you guys ready for this I actually had that happen. 23:55.50 Heather I pray. 24:03.32 Heather Who. 24:10.47 archpodnet Here in well here, not no reno. But in reno I don't know. Actually how this guy even found me I think he found me on Linkedin or something like that. But it was really a small project. He'd never had to do anything before and the only reason they had to have a culture resources assessment on this one spot of private land was because. A couple of streams came down the hill right across the property and those streams were under Army Corps ah regulation so because of that Army Corps influence they had to have a cultural resources assessment done. So you know I did a lit search and. 24:31.51 Heather Left that triggerman. Yeah. 24:41.76 archpodnet And and sent them a proposal and I don't even think they were looking at anybody else to be honest, but I I had to prep him ahead of time for you know what? this is going to be. You know it turns out it wasn't that expensive in the Grand scheme of things but you know it's helpful to give them a little bit of a hand. 24:44.28 Heather Yes. 24:55.63 Heather Yeah. 24:58.34 archpodnet Yeah, go ahead deck. 25:00.56 Doug Yeah I would say um and this is just sort of a ah general life thing but it it ties in well um, it's also not necessarily just knowing your audience but asking your audience what they know? um because you can really insult people quite quickly by either assuming they know what you're talking about. 25:09.35 Heather Follow. 25:09.65 archpodnet Um, yeah. 25:16.60 archpodnet Girl right. 25:18.26 Doug Um, or assuming they don't know what you're talking about. Um I Usually yeah I usually go with ah a solid like please stop me if I'm I'm talking or I ask a sort of a series of like leading questions of like okay so have you done this before you know how many projects is this something you know. 25:20.32 Heather Um I don't. 25:33.62 archpodnet You know. 25:38.70 Doug Get a little bit of a thing and i'll'll I'll just be honest I'll say you know I I ah go over this I don't want to like ah belittle you? Um, but I also want us to miscommunicate so apologies if anything happens. But um and I go over stuff with people. 25:47.54 Heather From. 25:54.97 Doug And I say you know try to figure out their level there. But I'd I'd say if anyone's listening to this. Do not assume a level of understanding um and ah I'd also say like don't assume a level understanding of fellow archaeologists. But they're the ones who are going to definitely be the most testy. 26:12.18 archpodnet Mean. 26:14.60 Doug Um, if if you if they don't know something. Um, they will definitely feel hurt and insulted. Um, ah they're the most easiest to insult I find. 26:21.94 archpodnet Yeah, all right? Well we are you know 3 or 4 minutes from the end of this segment but I think let's take a break now because we can wrap this whole thing up with a discussion of what to do after you win the proposal and then kind of wrap it up the project and and what all that means on the other side of this so we'll do all that in 1 segment when we get back. 26:23.34 Heather Yeah. 26:41.16 archpodnet Back in a minute welcome back to the third and final segment of episode 2 71 for the cr m archeology podcast and its proposals part 2 and now we're going to talk about the fun part. What happens when you win a proposal what what do you do? what does that actually mean what who do you have to communicate with what to. 26:55.26 Heather But. 26:59.37 archpodnet What kind of stuff. Do you have to put into motion you know and really I mean this all depends on probably 2 primary major factors. A how big is the project you just won and b how big is your company right? because if you want a big project and you can just like roll into this because you guys are planning on it. You got people coming off another one. 27:09.46 Heather When. 27:17.45 archpodnet There's a lot of logistics to take place if you're a smaller company and maybe you're not doing a lot of work then it might be okay to to do this and and and not have too much of a disruption but still like myself like I mentioned last time I mean those big projects I had for the navy. I mean I really had to put a lot of stuff into place like I said I had but I had to get a loan actually, that's when I bought my Tacoma because I I knew I was going to have to rent vehicles. But I also knew I was I was ready for a company vehicle. So you know I I bought that to not have another rental but to have an asset and then I still had to rent um to other vehicles for the project. So. 27:39.91 Heather Um, you know. 27:54.20 archpodnet It was and I had to rent them for you know like ten months but that's getting really expensive. Ah if if I had the space to store other vehicles I probably should have just bought another one but I really didn't so you know I'm not ah I don't have a huge office I'm not I'm not a huge company. So um, anyway, that's. 27:55.50 Heather Yeah. 28:10.36 archpodnet Some of the things to think about and just the logistics of the whole thing which kind of is my favorite part I Love logistics I Love figuring out the pieces and where things go. It's kind of my sweet spot. You know project management that side of things and and it's really fun if that's not your sweet spot then you need to hire somebody who it is for because if you don't get the logistics right. 28:13.86 Heather You will. 28:27.20 Heather 1 very true. 28:29.35 archpodnet You're really going to mess this up So doug. 28:33.51 Doug You yeah um, this actually sort of ties back into our first. Ah first bit with ah when Heather was talking about like what projects you shouldn't go for because you know it always sucks to not get a project. Um, but you know sometimes winning sucks as well. Um I think part of that decision is um. 28:40.44 archpodnet Um, yeah. 28:51.25 Doug When you're thinking about this, you should actually be thinking about I know we say in it and in theory you should be thinking about winning when you're putting together your proposal and where everything happens. Um, but I I find this especially with a lot of smaller organizations. They don't think strategically about that so you know. 1 of the things. Especially if you're deciding what to go for is like when are the start dates and when do things are likely going to roll or what sometimes happens is there are not really hard start dates. They'll let you know when they're partially through or they're ready to be stripping some soil or something like that. 29:12.94 archpodnet Oh. 29:25.35 Heather Um. 29:28.19 Doug Um, and that's when they're going to call you in to do monitoring or something like that and you have no control and you maybe have like a week's notice or like hey want stop by tomorrow I'll sort of notice which always sucks and is always fun. Um, but yeah I think in terms of like once you've won you should actually have been planning. 29:38.22 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 29:41.37 Heather Um. 29:46.71 Doug I Know it sounds weird and in theory you you are planning by putting in a proposal to win but actually you should really plan before you even put in that proposal What happens if you win and you should be time tabling your resources and thinking about what's what's going to be coming down the pipeline and when um. 30:04.85 archpodnet Um, yeah. 30:06.41 Doug Because no matter what you do and how well you plan 6 things are always going to happen on that one week 30:14.38 archpodnet Yeah, indeed indeed. 30:17.70 Heather Yeah I think this is really important for people to understand specifically for those that are working in the field and mean you know me they don't have a um potential of writing a proposal at least this at this point in their career. But. This is why crm is rife with last minute requests. This is why people are you know, constantly calling you last minute because you know the you win the proposal. It's not like you win the proposal. Okay now. But we start right? Away. It doesn't work that way. Lot of times the clients win the proposal but there's a lot of things that the agencies at least in in California agencies have so if you're working with a client where they're the applicant and your client is the applicant not the agency even with an agency but more so when the applicant is the is the client There are so many things they have no control over permits things that they may not have even thought of things that the agencies weren't all that organized and they didn't think of and now nothing can happen until they get a grading permit or other other types of permits and so you know this is. It's not just a simple now. But you're doing an investigation. It's a little different but when it comes to monitoring and any kind of mitigation work that you proposed on that is where you know you don't really have a whole lot of control and unfortunately that's why we we come up with a lot of last minute requests. 31:41.39 Heather Because our clients don't have control or maybe they're not that organized and and they're like save the day. Please you know Um I think the first thing that I do it all depends on whether or not it's a mitigation effort or it's an an investigation effort investigation effort. You do have a lot more control and we have set up um, task strategies that we know as soon as I tell our team we've won this project. They know we do this this this this it's it is fact we've created a Trello card. We have. Everything set up so everybody knows it's this kind of project. These are the things that need to happen and there's no, not even any thought about it sometimes they'll ask because there's certain things sometimes you do sometimes you don't but for the most part having a organized management. Um. 32:20.35 archpodnet Nice. 32:35.52 Heather Task list is really essential to doing things in an efficient way. Um, yeah, Chris yeah, something to say. 32:44.97 archpodnet I've just got to echo that I'm so glad to hear you guys use something like Trello that is not only easy to organize. But it's also something that can be shared easily enough and it's free I mean it can you can pay for it and we actually do for the apn for several things that we need to do. But. For for like 99% of what you need to do. It's a free ah can be like a light project management tool. You know what I mean and there's project management software out there. 33:05.96 Heather You mean? yeah. 33:11.52 archpodnet But for certain size projects. Especially if you're running concurrent projects all the time I mean you need this open communication between you and the people that are running it. The people that are paying for it. You know everything and if you don't have it goes back to logistics if you don't have that this thing can go sideways real fast If you're holding on to information and then. 33:25.81 Heather Yeah, yeah. 33:29.68 archpodnet All of a sudden. Maybe you can't provide that information and you know where's that housed where is that information that we need you know I don't know how many times I've been on a project where in the first week we still don't know what the agency defines as a site because the company just sent us out there. 33:33.44 Heather Um, with that. Ah. 33:42.93 Heather Ah, yeah. 33:44.41 archpodnet You know this is before I own my company without really giving us any briefing information on what we're actually doing out there and looking We just start walking and recording stuff and we have no definitions and there's no place we can look to find them. So yeah, go ahead. 33:49.39 Heather Right now. Yeah that I would say is yeah, that's a really good point. Um, you know, being organized out. The gate is is essential to. Making sure that you don't have something called Scope Creep right? I think a lot of people have you know we we already talked a little bit about that the one way that you avoid Scope Creep is to make sure that you have a very specific and well writtenten proposal that has. 34:09.52 archpodnet Um, yeah, no. 34:23.11 Heather Assumptions that you know from your own personal experience where things can go sideways where misunderstandings could happen where you wrote you were going to do this and actually your language isn't tight enough that it could be understood that it's included in your proposal. So having the assumptions first is your step first step to avoiding scope creep. The second thing is is to really understanding and understanding what your effort is so that when you so that you're able to identify tasks that are coming up that the client is asking for that. 34:40.11 archpodnet O. 34:59.80 Heather Um, are outside of the scope and can really eat up your budget very quickly. So and and then the other thing is um, putting a good team in there that knows how to make things happen I mean and you have to. You have to show people how to make things happen. You can't just throw people into the field and say get this done like you have to have parameters and you can't as a project manager be afraid to give those parameters you have to say like it needs to get done in this time. Usually what I do is I anticipate it anticipate i. You know one of the thing I think we talked about this when you're putting together an investigation you have to look like many times. It's far away from where you are so you can't go and put boots on the ground and and see what you're dealing with but you have to go on Google earth you have to look at the topa maps going a Google earth isn't good enough looking at the topa maps knowing what. 35:41.44 archpodnet Sure. 35:50.21 Heather The terrain is going to be like so you know how quickly people are going to be able to get through the area. Those things are really important because you know I've learned the hard way where I've said oh guys this is an easy project and they get out in the into the project and not only do you have a you know this undulating. Like terrain but you have poison oak right? So There's all different ways that that you can anticipate what it's going to be like out there but giving let's say you did perfectly and you really had a good understanding of what your terrain and what the environment is like you know. 36:10.82 archpodnet Yeah. 36:24.34 Heather Giving your crew say this is what I'm expecting. It's going to take this is what we've budgeted for and so that they have some parameters Otherwise you're just throwing them in there and you're not allowing them to be successful out in the field. So. 36:40.20 archpodnet Um, yeah, good point Doug. 36:45.35 Doug So ah, just a slight step back on like um, you know planning and resourcing it and and what Heather was going on about how um we don't always know when projects are going to happen and what. Is actually happening in that project. Sometimes you're sent out into the field with with no idea. Um because it's not a lot of communication I have to say this is ah I think one of the biggest weaknesses I see in crm anywhere in the world is there's there's a lack of communication and a lot of lack of communication. Um. 37:03.22 archpodnet Now here. 37:22.45 Doug All throughout. So you you have? um I don't think people have gotten until you actually are are dealing with project management. Most mosa say text don't understand that actually like it's not that that people are trying to screw you over with um. You know we might have work next week we might not and it feels like you're being strung along that's literally because you don't know what's going to happen next week I've been on projects where um, well it was ah one of the projects. The big one was the border friends one where they didn't actually have to do. 37:41.13 Heather No. 37:57.37 Doug They they'd gotten rid of all the regulations but they decided to do it anyways. But basically we were out there week to week and eventually they shut it down they but it was always week to week on. Well maybe maybe we'll come back next week maybe we won't we have no idea because they didn't know what would happen. 38:03.84 archpodnet In here. 38:17.80 Doug Um, but I do find there's a lot of lack of communication that that's not told on to text and I I understand why some people do it because they're afraid if they don't have work then people will start looking for work and leave their other project early and I'm not sure if there's a great. And answer a solution to this but I really do wish that um more employers and employees would have like a a good conversation and say look guys. These are the potential projects. We have. Um, we don't know when they're going to start. They may start. They may not. There may be um, some. You know time between and I wish there's better communication where people could say like okay that's too much risk for me I need to go find a different job can I give you a couple weeks notice. Um and instead of the normal of like oh I'm not going to be back next week I got a different job which um. 39:02.47 archpodnet Right. 39:10.77 Heather Air. 39:13.56 Doug Really angers managers. But honestly, it's what you got to do because you shouldn't there's always that risk of you say oh I'm looking for another job and then they just completely cut you off right? there? Um I think this sir goes back to a lot of conversations we have on this podcast is there's 2 conversations we have one is. How we'd like to see things and 1 is a lot of advice. We give on what things are to do and of course like the advice I give in the current situation is yeah, always look out for number 1 do not have that conversation about how you're thinking about going to a different employer. Um, but. The other conversation I'd like to have or the other thing I'd say is I wish we could have that conversation I wish I could say you should talk to your employer and be like yeah you know big risk I need to find something a little bit more steady. Um, and I think there are a few places that that does happen. Um, but in general probably the advice is yeah, don't. 39:57.46 archpodnet Yeah. 40:06.26 Doug Don't don't say that um because you can lose work. 40:09.15 archpodnet Indeed Andrew. 40:11.50 Andrew Yeah I just like to go back to that idea that ah Heather was talking about a scope creep I love that. Ah, that phrase and I would say that if you win the proposal one of the first things you almost want to plan for is the end of the project. You know what? like. Like have that idea in your mind like okay this will take about this long with these resources and it will end somewhere right around here. So we're gonna utilize our resources and then have enough to just and maybe a little cushion but to have that endpoint because I've seen that before people who. Win a project win a bid whatever and they have no idea about the end you know and it's like no, you need to now know the whole story to the end I always like to think of it as like a scuba dive where it's like okay I've gotten this proposal. We're going to do this I'm going to go down. For 30 minutes and then I have to come up and be prepared for that. 41:10.14 archpodnet Yeah, there's no ah scope creep. But the scuba though Gope creep as you die? Ah yeah, go ahead other. 41:11.72 Heather Yeah, a couple things. Yeah I I would say um, a couple things like just piggybacking off of what Andrew's saying but for first I'm going to say something about what Doug said. 41:13.35 Andrew Yeah, right. 41:26.32 Heather He I'm glad he said at the end that um, there are some companies that you can do that with as soon as you identify that that is a company because I'll say when we hire as needed I have a conversation with that as an employee and I tell them listen this is the way as native works. 41:44.40 archpodnet Yeah. 41:44.80 Heather And I do not want you to just rely on this company I had this conversation with newer people, especially that are just entering Crm said it is on you. You're as needed at this point it is on you to find work and I'm telling you. I encourage you to work for other companies. Um, because I as much as I would love to have enough work for you I have to make sure that I have enough work for a lot of people and so I want you to you know, actively go. In fact, you can put my name. But when it gets to a certain point if I know that they're good at what they do and I'm willing to you know, recommend them I said put my name on your resume as a as a contact you know, but I encourage people to do that when you have a manager who's doing that then you got to be straight up with that person because you want to put that's a good employer. Um. 42:26.17 archpodnet Yeah. 42:37.27 archpodnet Um, yeah. 42:39.65 Heather And you want to protect that relationship. Um, that's an employer you can trust so you don't want to be playing this game where you're going to hold things back because when you do that to a manager who's a trust but who's working with you in an honest way and then you're not working with them in an honest way. That's a real good way to negatively impact. Your relationship with a really good employer and that's not what you want right? You want to eventually get a full time job with a good employer. So if you're kind of burning your brings with good employers. Um, that's not the best move. So I do think I agree with Doug there are going to be some situations where you do need to and you're going to have to suss that out and. 43:19.17 archpodnet A. 43:19.44 Heather Figure out who who you're going to be forthright with and who you're not but don't go across the board and not and and be that way across the board I think that that yeah, that's a mistake Chris. 43:29.63 archpodnet Well and I'm glad you mentioned that Heather too because you know now I'm speaking to all the field techs out there. You have to watch out for yourself if if you are an as needed or a shovel bum or temporary field tech. Whatever you want to say I mean you have to know that you you are the one that's responsible for your career. Don't think that even just because the company says oh we've got tons of work this summer you'll be You'll definitely going to have work after this sure take that is yeah okay, that's great if it happens but don't assume it's going to happen because the reality is they have several priorities. The first one is everybody on their staff and their payroll. That has to be it. That's how you run a business if that's not their priority. They'll be out of business soon right? So if if they only have if they don't win the projects they thought they were going to win which is what they're basing their statement to you on is that they've put in all these proposals. They know all this work is but they haven't won that work. You know that I mean if they have great show me the money. But if they haven't. 44:09.20 Heather Um, cool. 44:23.66 Heather Um, but people question. 44:25.86 archpodnet You know it's like it's promises and hopes and dreams right? So ah but keep an eye out for yourself and you can if if you're not working for somebody that understands that you have to keep an eye out for yourself and you have to go to the projects that make sense for your life because this is how you work then you shouldn't work for those people at all right and and conversely. 44:40.34 Heather Yeah. 44:44.12 archpodnet If somebody offers you a job for when you're done with this project but I hate to say it something better or more solid comes along and you have to tell those guys. No I can't actually work on your project. Well honestly, if they don't understand too. That's just how this business works. You know I mean you don't want to burn those bridges too many times and and accept something and say no too many times. 44:51.83 Heather Me. 44:57.36 Heather Yeah. 45:03.92 archpodnet But within reason you've got to watch out for yourself and and I'll say one more thing too to people who are permanent with companies as well. There's nothing permanent if there's no projects coming in right? You might be salaried. You might be full time staff. But I'll tell you what if for some reason the work dries up, you're gone. 45:16.40 Heather Um. 45:20.74 archpodnet Like they're not going to keep you and just like put you in the office. There's no money to pay for you. So unless you have another skill set your your job is only as permanent as the proposals that are coming in so that's it Doug. 45:24.19 Heather Um, right. 45:28.18 Heather Um, yeah, very true. 45:34.59 Doug Sorry I'm ah I a jump back. We're just jumping all over the place. Um I was actually going to say like if you have your contract. Um done right? Scope Creep is an amazing thing that never ending project. 45:49.22 Heather Um, oh absolutely great. 45:49.43 Doug Um, that just keeps on going that keeps writing you you money I know that's not what Andrew meant on scope creep because there's usually yeah, you. 45:50.51 archpodnet Um. 45:54.38 Andrew I yeah cause done horrily where it's like no, you have three days left dude you know. 46:01.31 Heather Yeah. 46:01.42 Doug Yeah, no, usually what we're what what? Andrew's referring to is is basically what happened is is like you have a fixed contract and then they're like oh yeah, so you budget 30 and we just need you to do something that yeah it's going to cost you like 60000 to do no big deal that sort of stuff. Um ah sucks. But um. Yeah I think this goes back to the ah the project. Um, and what's your contract and how you've got it set up but you can end up on those sort of never ending projects. Um, that just go on for years upon years and provide steady work. Um, after getting that first contract if you've you've got it. 46:36.12 Heather Um, oh absolutely yeah. 46:36.65 Andrew Right. 46:39.86 Doug You've got done correctly. Um, and again man always make sure you have your contracts done correctly, if there's if there's 1 thing you're going to so you should spend money on is like a lawyer to give you some good terms and conditions and contracts if you can write it like again. 46:55.83 archpodnet If. 46:56.58 Heather Um, only. 46:57.80 Doug Some jobs. They're basically like godlined you're using our contract. It's 400 pages long. You're screwed 6 different ways. Um, just like that third paragraph but you have no choice that happens. Um, but yeah, if you if you can get a good a good, never ending project. Um. Those things those things can be really wonderful. 47:16.43 Andrew Right? But I think we're just talking on the two sides of professionalism. You know if you're if you're professional then yeah, that can happen and there there are. 47:17.99 Heather Um, so you know I think yeah. 47:26.61 Andrew Certain projects that have a reason to go on but then there's others that have every reason to end and then the person is just like not professional and is making you know foolish decisions. So. 47:34.40 Heather Yeah I think for me where Scope Creek comes in um, the most is when you have a client who needs some handholding or some things happen. Let's say you find a resource and now you have to address that resource. That's actually the easiest scope creep. 47:36.19 archpodnet Um, indeed. 47:51.52 Heather And the most beneficial scope creep to us as professionals because it is like Doug says this and ah it it extends your project to end the money that comes in but the scope creep is when you have a client who is very needy. And they they want some extra handholding or you have an agency that's really trying to put the screws to your to your client and now you're having to step in and be an advocate for your client that happens a lot. Um because your client doesn't know the business and they don't know if they're getting screwed by. The agency or not and so you know your job as a client or as a as a professional is to advocate for your client and so that's where the scope creeping come in and that's where you have to have those conversations but mostly your clients typically are professional people. They understand that these things happen and you're looking out for them and that it does cost more money in order for you to be able to you know, help them in these different ways. But I think the 1 thing that I would like to say also to um, those that are um, yeah to those at work in the field is that when you're when you're. Ah, project manager tells you that you know sometimes you're gonna be out there and you're gonna be doing a survey let's say and you find a resource and your project manager your field supervisor has told you that this is the way the project is goingnna go. You're not going to record anything you're gonna take a point and move on. There's a reason behind thats because that. 49:16.83 Heather Is not included in recording a site is not included maybe in your in the proposal and then that is going to occur later I see sometimes on social media where people say oh well people are you know they're not being responsible. They're not recording the resource and that's not what's going on like don't assume the worst. 49:19.18 archpodnet Friends. 49:34.89 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 49:36.23 Heather What's happening is is that you're having a survey you take a point and then you come back later when you can um, put together another contract amendment in order to to deal with the resources that profound that you didn't expect so you know that it's important that those that are in the field. 49:52.73 archpodnet Um. 49:54.74 Heather Understand that the direction you're being given are being given because the contract has spurs specific um expectations right. 50:04.83 archpodnet Um, right doug. 50:08.56 Doug Yeah I would say ah my my primary experience with ah scope creep actually tends to be from other archeologists who actually wish they were running the project you get this a lot of times where obviously um, the archeologist who is on the other side of the project. 50:15.53 Heather Or who. 50:25.36 Doug Um, many times they want it to be run in a certain way and they may ah man we've we've tied back into our first segments and stuff um with Heather talking about um various things on. Um. You know, ah well sorry. Ah I've lost my trade of thought there I'll just cut and say um, it's um, it's basically yeah, a lot of times I tend to see it mainly coming from people who are like. 50:49.44 Heather Um. 50:59.65 Doug Oh I Want to run this project this way. It should be run my way and they're not That's actually not their job and um, yeah, that's where I see the most creep coming in. 51:08.93 Andrew Um, right I just have 1 kind of quick question too for like you know Heather and and the rest of you guys. 51:12.70 archpodnet Um, awesome. 51:16.54 Andrew You know the proposal is so important and you can justify things using the proposal is it possible to give a copy of the proposal to the crew or is that like too odd you know because you can say like. 51:24.92 Heather Sometimes yes, no well some So That's a really good point but sometime I will either give the proposal. Our team knows exactly where the proposals are so I encourage them to look at a proposal. So Only time that you wouldn't do that. There's sometimes you have conditions you know. You can't do that right? You have some confidentiality for the most part I do give the proposals to the to the crew at least the crew supervisors right? So They have an idea of why we're doing what we're doing I think they had buy in a lot easier that way and if um, the other option is to write a. 51:46.10 Andrew Um, yeah. 51:55.20 Andrew Yeah. 52:02.33 Heather A work plan and it's very easy to to extract if you write a proposal Correctly, it's easy to extract a work plan from your proposal and so if you're not going to get the proposal you can at least give a work plan and that definitely allows people to to have buy in. You know when you're just like barking out order. 52:09.94 Andrew Yeah. 52:16.63 Andrew Right? right. 52:19.82 Heather Without any understanding behind it. That's not fair. 52:22.15 Andrew Yeah, no I think that's huge and I think it kind of wraps up with what like you know Doug Doug was saying earlier with you'll have these sort of almost bullying archeologists who want this certain thing and you can go to them and be like in the proposal it says this and this is what we're doing so stop it. 52:22.61 Doug Yeah, and that. 52:22.70 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 52:32.60 Heather Long. 52:40.34 archpodnet Yeah. 52:40.60 Heather Um, yeah, yeah, agreed. But I. 52:41.32 Andrew You know and and that can be a really powerful ally your own proposal. 52:45.94 Doug Or I could piss them off more? yeah. 52:50.21 Andrew So what? So what? it's a business you know like yeah. 52:51.41 archpodnet Um, well okay, yeah group. Yeah well. 52:54.91 Doug Ah, yeah I know I know it's the legal bit. But yeah, sometimes yeah yeah, sometimes you have to walk that thin that thin red line of um, yeah, ah, because technically they will be your client. 53:08.36 archpodnet Now. 53:10.35 Heather Well we have somebody like that I just don't hire them again. Yeah I Just said if we have if I have somebody like that and they're not. They're not following. You know the work plan. Ah that might be their last project. 53:13.20 Doug And sorry Heather you said. 53:16.67 archpodnet Um. 53:25.15 archpodnet Yeah. 53:27.14 Heather Like I don't care how good they are If you're if you're not if you're not working for us. You're working for us as a company if you're not if you don't have that attitude. Um I am sorry I can't have you on the project. 53:38.87 archpodnet Um, yeah, and that's that is an excellent point I mean if you're not following the rules If you're not playing ball with the company and how that company operates then you know you find another company to work for or they'll find another field tech to work for them. 53:50.20 Heather Um, great right? yeah. 53:53.30 archpodnet You know I mean that's just that's just how that goes there has to be a synergy there. So but I'll end this with I'm just very glad that the the concept of a work plan came up because a proposal can easily develop into a work plan because a lot of the things you're going to do in the work plan are in the proposal and just like proposals and reports. 54:03.90 Heather You know. 54:10.10 archpodnet You you probably have and you should if you do these all the time and every project should have a work plan. You should have a template for that you know because the work plan contains not only the elements of the proposal that say here's what we're doing and how we're doing it and why we're doing it. But here's the ah you know, emergency evacuation routes here's the nearest hospitals here's the. You know all the other stuff that you need in a work plan for your health and safety stuff for you know the whole thing that is the the bible for the project and every crew should have a copy of the work plan available to them either either digitally offline or you know as a Pdf or something like that because it's got that crucial information in it. So anyway, we could. 54:42.53 Heather Me. 54:48.34 archpodnet Continue on this for a really long time probably because there's always something to say about this but I'm interested in hearing everybody else's thoughts hit us up on you know Facebook if you saw this you know I again I I am one of the admins of the archaeo field text group and. You know the hosts of this podcast most of them are also in the Arche field text group and that's kind of the biggest group that we have on Facebook to talk about and share you know field related experiences. We can't really share this episode there. So if you're listening to this and you're over there. 55:13.13 Heather Um, oh. 55:18.90 archpodnet It's a little self-serving to do that and I understand that. But if you liked if you like this. But so please help us out and share it over there so it can generate these conversations sometimes I just will if I think man this really needs to get out and I'll just you know suffer the consequences of somebody saying me look at you. You're self promoting yourself in your own group. But anyway, um. I Don't Care. It's good stuff right? So help us out and and maybe share it out and if you've got any comments I I know I know. 55:40.00 Heather It's a service. It's not like we're yeah it's it's not like we get paid for this Chris I mean we're doing this because we don't do this so we can sit in the room now you're not getting paid Andrew um. 55:45.28 Andrew Wait wait. What. Oh no, Oh good God This is about I need to talk to my agent this coffee. This coffee is cold. 55:51.90 archpodnet I I get it I get it. 55:54.70 Heather Have a special deal I'm not aware of them. 55:55.66 Doug wait what no I wait I thought we all looked getting paid. Yeah I thought we were all getting but wait Chris Chris is had the is Heather the only one not getting paid Chris. 56:08.88 Andrew Whatever yeah yeah, did any work plan. 56:09.15 archpodnet Um, ah I. 56:09.20 Doug That's oh oh I see some things here man that's that's got blow up on Facebook for you there. Chris. 56:09.78 Heather Um, oh that's a whole category. Um, ultimate scope creep. 56:13.47 archpodnet All right? well pay paying you guys was not in my work plan or my proposal. So I'm going to I guess exactly all right? Well thanks a lot for this episode is approaching scope creep right now on segment 3 So. 56:26.15 Heather Bring it around. 56:32.90 Andrew Ah. 56:32.76 archpodnet Um, anyway, thanks a lot guys. This has been a great 2 episode series I hope we can do some more little mini series like this and with that we'll see you guys in two weeks with whatever Andrew wants to talk about back then thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field. 56:32.79 Heather Finish. 56:38.23 Andrew Ah, yeah. 56:44.95 Andrew Okay. 56:52.36 archpodnet Goodbye. 56:54.19 Heather Bye everybody. 56:55.32 Andrew See you guys next time. 56:59.74 archpodnet Fine. 57:00.91 Doug Yeah, I'm gonna take that as a win their pause was a win right? there I have nothing else to say um, that's that that's me done. Um, they've taken my job from me Chris Contracts man I need to go. We go back to that contract we have. 57:05.23 archpodnet Um, now. 57:10.10 archpodnet You know I cut those out right? right? All right? Thanks everybody. 57:21.16 Doug Goodbye.