00:00.25 Chris All right welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is heather. 00:07.84 Heather Oh good morning. So great Chris. 00:11.75 Bill White Um, ah her. 00:12.80 Chris Ah I'm not going to I'm not going to say California because you're all in California I forgot I show I was going to mention that. Yeah. 00:15.55 Heather You know I know because usually you say count that was what I was waiting for in California hi Chris. 00:15.80 archpodnet Yeah, it's understood. 00:17.20 Bill White Um, ah yeah, ah. 00:24.17 Chris Ah, all right? And then we've got bill also in California if that helps and then Andrew with our topic today. Also in California I'm the only one that's not. 00:27.55 Bill White Yep, every day. Ah. 00:35.51 Heather Where are you chris. 00:36.11 archpodnet That's right, one of us does not belong today. Ah, how's gun everybody at. 00:40.33 Chris Ah I am good good I am currently in I heard heather ask I'm currently in Northern Washington state actually northwestern up in the north right? outside north cascade's national park. So it's a pretty cool area. We're we're under the smoke veil of Canada right now. So. 00:41.20 Bill White Ah. 00:49.41 Bill White Um, wow. 00:55.93 archpodnet Wow. Still. 00:56.30 Bill White That are you near Mount Baker okay cool beautiful 00:57.91 Chris You know, can't really see anything. But yeah, anyway, we're just south of Mount Baker yeah Yeah absolutely yep! So yeah, it's cool area all right? Well Andrew's got the topic today Andrew what are we? what are we doing here. 00:59.59 Heather Um, yeah. 01:14.82 archpodnet All right here we go so today I'd really like to discuss what we think of as a phase one a phase 2 and a phase three in Crm Archeology and I pick this topic for a few reasons first. Um I was talking to Chris the other day and Chris. Just brought this one up hey why don't we do phase one 2 3 and at the same time as is so often with topics like this I had also recently asked my students to define a phase one and a phase 2 and some of their descriptions weren't exactly what I was expecting and then I took a step back and I was like wait. That's not wrong though and so I want to talk about this because different places different archeology crews. You know they define where the shift between phase one and phase 2 or what specifically is in these different phases is it's defined all over the place. So I thought we could talk about our experiences. Of these 3 phases. What we think it is and see if we can come to some sort of agreement on how we think it should be done. Okay Chris I already see you have something to say what's up. 02:18.12 Chris Well just before we even talk about what one two and 3 means we need to talk about the terminology right? because some people especially on the West Coast might be thinking. What do you mean phase because a lot of times. It's called class right class 2 class three I know that the blm in Nevada calls them class 3 02:24.14 Heather Um, yeah. 02:30.31 archpodnet Are. 02:35.65 Heather Oh. 02:35.66 Chris Like inventories or something like that cultural resources inventory when you're doing a pedestrian survey so class phase somewhat interchangeable and it just depends on where you're at to be honest. 02:44.56 Heather Um, yep. 02:49.30 archpodnet That's cool in in my experience it. It's always been phase but you know my experience is what you know 7 different firms or something all in Southern California ish you know? so um, that ah it's always I've yeah. 02:55.34 Heather Yeah, and. 02:58.50 Bill White Yeah. 02:58.80 Chris Yeah. 03:00.32 Heather And then then you get Tom King who doesn't like any of the numbers and which actually I agree with him the more that I've been working you know the the more that I've been involved in Crm and the more I actually agree with him because I think that. Having an understanding and labeling these each one of these efforts by what they actually are would be more helpful than having these different definite. You know the the phase one or class one 2 3 but you still need to work within the. 03:28.14 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:30.14 Chris Ah. 03:37.99 Heather The agencies that are overseeing the work that you're doing so you still have to have that terminology obviously but I think it's really important that people understand what what? the ah chronology or but what are the steps towards. 03:54.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:56.70 Heather You know, doing what you're doing out in the field and why why do they happen in this order because no matter what they're called, they all typically happen in the same order and for the same reason. So. 04:06.45 archpodnet Are. 04:06.68 Chris Ah, yeah, good point. 04:13.72 archpodnet Yeah, you know I in terms of of looking into this and how we define it you know I realized I'm like hey maybe I should look at my own textbook that I give my students maybe that would be good and so I do recommend I've been using this one for years. Ah, cultural resources archeology by ah Newman Stanford and now Harry this is the second edition I believe this is the most current one. Um I really like this textbook for a like a field class that is crmangled you know. 04:33.80 Bill White Um, yeah. 04:39.49 Bill White The. 04:48.60 Chris E. 04:50.91 archpodnet Because it takes that Crm bent and it spends a bit more time on the laws and that kind of stuff than it does on this is how to hold a shovel because I find that this is how to hold the shovel or this is how to like measure a meter we can all do that We can all learn it pretty easy. You know, but. 05:05.79 Bill White Yeah. 05:08.49 archpodnet The more like what are the laws around this ah is is the difficult part. So this book. Ah this book Chapter Four is just called the phase one process. So I I looked through it and I'm like okay so what do they? um. 05:10.28 Heather Oh. 05:18.62 Chris Oh. 05:18.70 Bill White Her hair. 05:26.28 archpodnet What did they say a phase one is so we'll see if our experiences go with this. Um, they say that? Ah, ah, a phase one. Let me see the but um, it refers to the identification of archeological resources through reconnaissance and intensive survey. Mentioned in the secretary of interiors standards for identification. So even already as with so much of the law. It's it tells you what it is but there's so much possibility for interpretation. You know what? I mean So it's like as we go right. 05:57.90 Chris Um, yeah. 05:57.20 Bill White Yeah. 05:59.33 Heather Um, and how do you do that like that's what you do? That's what is for But how do you do that. 06:02.56 archpodnet Like yeah, is that digging is that no digging is that just looking at a Map. You know so what I think we'll find is as we go through this that we're all sort of right that you you can't. Do this wrong as long as you have some sort of plan and it kind of moves forward in a thoughtful manner. You know what? I mean Um, so I don't know if we'll all argue about oh no, you can never dig in a phase one. It's like well you can it. 06:26.33 Chris Ah. 06:32.42 Heather Yeah, well you definitely dig in a phase one absolutely can dig kind of in. In fact, it's necessary Sometimes yep. 06:32.42 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 06:36.81 archpodnet Yeah, but yeah, but I've heard people be very much like nope that's where you're just doing a record search phase 1 is record search. You know so looks like it's not yeah, see that's and yeah Chris you were gonna say something. 06:47.14 Bill White Yeah I don't know about that. 06:47.94 Heather Ah, yeah. 06:54.59 Chris Yeah I mean when I worked on the East Coast which is where I got most of my experience to start before we moved west it was a phase one was a basically ah you know your standard shovel test survey right? Thirty Meter interval or twenty Meter interval whatever the standard was for the state. 07:06.11 Heather Oh. 07:11.17 Chris Ah, you know so you did the standard shovel test interval and then phase two was typically you go back to the hits right? like you'd already done some some slightly ah more detailed testing. Obviously when you find a shovel ah positive shovel test. You do the cruciform. Thing where you go in between those and you just kind of nail that down and you figure out where this thing is and then you go back on a phase two to those spots and you do more intensive um shovel testing and or 1 by ones on certain places like around certain shovel tests that you dug or maybe even backho trenching depending on. You know what? you've got available and what's going on and then phase three was always full scale block excavation right? and that was always pretty much everywhere on the East Coast that I worked it was those were the rough definitions that were used and then I come out here to the west in ah and a class three cultural resources inventory is pedestrian survey. 07:50.67 archpodnet Yeah. 07:54.57 Bill White Yeah. 08:02.97 Bill White Car. 08:03.91 Chris You know what? I mean like at least for Blm Nevada and I'm like well that doesn't match up at all so you know Heather. 08:04.16 Heather Yeah, right? Yeah I think for for me when I'm trying to teach people that come in entry level and we're trying to explain to them because it is just their heads are spinning. 08:05.25 archpodnet Yeah, right. 08:10.73 Bill White Ah, her. 08:22.67 Chris Um, yeah. 08:23.42 Heather No matter you know, no matter where they come from, especially you know in some in some um institutions where they're not taught about crm at all. But what I try to explain is number 1 a phase one if you want to use that phase one 2 3 but the steps are first. 08:31.14 Bill White Yeah. 08:42.90 Heather Absence or presence we're looking for absence of presence of archeological archaeological resources period two we found something now we need to evaluate it and determine whether or not it's significant and the next step and so those 2 steps are your investigation. 08:43.62 Bill White There. 08:46.26 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:57.33 Chris Are. 09:01.74 Heather Your assessment. Whatever it is that you want to think ah you want to call it that gets you through whatever document that you are informing whether it's a federal state or a local document in California that's cqa or nepa if it's a federal project. 09:11.57 Chris Yeah. 09:21.40 Heather That's what's informing and telling the agency whether or not you have an impact adverse effect on a resource or not the last step is data recovery and that's where if you can't avoid It. You're trying to collect all the information in order to at least. Retain the data potential so that we don't lose everything if a site is unavoidable on a or feasibly on ah feasibly unavoidable or sorry, unavoidable, right? Your indicator not feasibly avoid Um, but that's mitigation. 09:53.22 Chris Ah. 09:55.35 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 09:59.69 Heather And that's what people sometimes don't understand so that's what happens after you've already made the determination of impact or effect and that's yeah, that's mitigation. That's completely separate and trying to explain that to to people that are new to it. It. It can be hard but to me just it's either. First step is absence presence no matter whether you're doing record search or you're doing the survey or you're doing shovel test bits and then the second one is we have something what is it and is it significant and if it's significant. Why is that important it's important because if you have a significant resource considered a historical resource. And now you have to by law. Avoid it if you can I know? yeah like. 10:39.97 archpodnet Yeah, okay, but I know Bill has something to say too. But so what you've just explained though Heather is that that's still phase one though, right? That's the hard part I think see yeah, what. 10:41.95 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10:48.34 Heather No, no, no, no so phase 1 phase one is that absence presence phase two is your evaluation. That's your I have a site I need to evaluate it I need to determine whether or not it's significant. 10:49.70 Bill White No no. 10:57.10 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:06.10 Heather That is if you're going to use the phases. That's your phase 2 So you sometimes you need to dig in order to determine if you have number one. Do you have a site and number 2 if you have a site. What's your extent. What's the vertical and horizontal extent of that site that's phase 1 11:10.80 archpodnet Um, right. 11:17.36 archpodnet Oh yeah I think I think we okay so that's see that's the part like that's the part I Want to make sure that you know everyone understands as we talk about like where would we break like as it but okay now we're in a phase two. Yeah. 11:29.56 Heather Well they bush together they mush together Sometimes you can do an extended phase one as we call it here. You can do an extended phase one and you get enough information during that digging. 11:34.38 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 11:42.57 archpodnet Yeah, it right? right? Not so but Bell what? what's up. 11:44.34 Heather To determine whether or not you have a significant resource and you don't even need to do a phase two. So I'll be quiet. 11:50.10 Bill White No, no, that was yeah that was all great. Yeah, you know the so the and like over to the side I've been looking up what every state that I've worked in calls a phase one and shocker. 11:50.90 Chris Um. 12:05.34 Bill White Half of them don't even ever spell it out and then the other half don't ever tell you the steps of what specifically you do right? So there's all these things from the the you know department of office of archeology the department of archeology and historic preservation right? or this state historic preservation office the Arizona State Museum 12:06.11 archpodnet Um, yeah. 12:23.94 Bill White None of them is like you know step 1 folks get in car drive to project area. Step 2 start walking in a line next to like they never they never actually say that right? So so it sounds like there is an unlimited amount of ways to do this right? and wrong right? with 0 guidance none of these states are really actually explaining what it is but. 12:27.83 archpodnet Um, yeah, are. 12:38.66 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 12:43.36 Bill White the the piece that's that you know, um, Heather's exactly right that that there is a whole process of going out to look for sites but the other half of it is the client right? because you need to know where in the world. This is even happening like what is the area of potential effect which is. A bounded geographic region that they plan on doing the undertaking like that's the reason why they even need any compliance. So if you don't have a ape then who really cares and then just like Heather was saying the the vertical extent too matters because as Chris was mentioning in the southeast some of those. Soils are a bit shallow and you can dig a 30 to forty Centimeter shovel probe and you're good to go in Washington state depending on where you're at you might go 130 beyond the the length of your shovel and then you have to start augering down. So why would you even do that if that's just a bike trail. You know that's going to be. 13:26.40 archpodnet Yeah. 13:33.92 Chris Um, yeah. 13:41.93 Bill White Way below where they ever would even be digging. But if they're putting in a parking garage. You may never even be able to get to you know I worked on a project that was like multi-years long in in downtown Seattle the town burned and then they just bulldozed it all into puget sound. So there's a city there at a certain depth and. 13:58.44 Chris Um. 14:01.90 Bill White You know the cultural layer is who knows how thick of buildings from like 1883 that were just poured into the ocean. So what? like where's your ape you're going. They were digging a tunnel for a freeway way below and through and into that layer. Otherwise like if you were just going to fix the the. 14:07.14 Chris Cheese. 14:20.15 Bill White The sewer pipe. It didn't matter because after they did that whole shoveling the city into the bay. They also hydraulically rinsed down hills so there's feet and feet of sediment. That's like you know, unconsolidated glacial fill till and all kinds of other stuff. Ah, soils that were all rinsed down on top of that city. So unless they're going like sixty feet deep who cares about that old Seattle because you're never even going to get to it so your vertical ape you're you're above the cultural layer. Anyway, that's not really a part of what you would need to have considered right? So then the other piece too is. 14:38.70 Chris Cheese. 14:52.16 Chris Ah. 14:57.19 Bill White Um, you know the the records check and and sometimes their companies are like you know, hey bill just get out there and start walking in the desert and you know when you find a thing start marking it down and don't worry. We'll get the records checked to you? No the the first half should be once you have an Ape What what has anyone ever done there. 15:11.79 archpodnet Yeah. 15:16.20 Bill White What kind of sites would you ever find because you know if your if your idea like Chris was saying of dig and shovel probes every 30 or forty meters but all the sites that have ever been found in that area are these really small. you know, Lithic um you know ah concentrations or ceramics and lithics together. And they're usually like 3 or four meters apart you're going to miss probably every single site that's ever been found in that county if they're all just Lithic scatters. So you might need to have a different kind of strategy of maybe your transets are closer or you know, maybe you do them diagonal and stagger them right? There's all these documents on. How do you can do a shovel probe survey to maximize you know coverage. But at the end of the day if you don't know where in the world that's happening and what anyone else has ever done in that area then it's difficult to design the kind of survey that you would to go out there and you know ground truth that things exist in the ape. 16:10.53 Chris Yeah, all right? Well definitely got some stuff to say on that. But first bill you were on the was that the Alaska way vi duck project. Nice nice. That big machine is still buried under there from what I hear they can't get it out. Ah. 16:16.30 Bill White Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, oh well, it joins the the crowd of like entire town you know cities and stuff. What's crazy about that whole thing is we had a great geomorphologist Charles Hodges 16:27.74 Chris Um, yeah. 16:32.69 Bill White Guy I I don't even really know what to say I've I've seen him encourage us to dig deeper and found like paleosols and other places that are at depths that should have been glacial till the guy's just really good at reading soils and and from the maps of where they were going. He said yeah on this area they pushed an entire town in there. 16:39.10 Chris Yeah. 16:51.32 Bill White So you shouldn't do a you shouldn't take a coring machine through it and so they were saying oh well, that's eighteen hundreds you know what would they possibly have steel right? like steel is a key piece and that's exactly what that thing hit a building that had iron steel. 16:53.84 Chris Yeah. 17:01.39 Chris Sure. 17:06.66 Bill White And it ran into it and got all tangled up and they never could get it out. Not only that but they modeled the whole thing after the big dig in Boston which was the you know most expensive fiasco of tunneling ever and when I lived in Seattle I voted against that 3 times and they still did it the most expensive option I voted against it 3 times. 17:07.33 Heather About Sp model. 17:14.73 Chris Ah. 17:16.18 archpodnet Um, no. 17:26.23 Bill White And they still did it anyway and then I voted for legalizing cannabis and then they didn't do that until after I moved away. So don't vote don't vote the way I want if you want change vote the opposite of me. 17:35.86 Chris All right? Well with that I think we'll take a break and come back in the other side and keep talking about this back in a minute all right? no pausing. Okay, anybody need a break or anything. 17:37.34 archpodnet Ah. 17:48.63 Heather Um. 17:51.80 archpodnet Um, nah. 17:52.67 Chris All right? We'll just roll into it then. 17:55.83 archpodnet Cool. 18:00.84 Chris Welcome back to the serum archeology podcast episode 2 72 and we're talking about the phase class system and I don't need you know field tech crew chief or project manager as a class system. Although that's definitely a class system within archeology. But what? ah. 18:14.29 Heather Oh that could be like a whole article. Yeah. 18:15.88 Bill White Or or so star trek planet classes. We're not talking about star trek either. So I was like what what is a class 3 planet I don't know. 18:19.25 Chris Ah, right? Ah, exactly exactly so but well I mean I mean I could actually tell you that but I won't let's not get into that yet. So anyway, so the yeah I know. 18:19.44 archpodnet Um, it yeah. 18:32.32 Heather You were tempted for a second there Chris I saw your face. 18:33.53 archpodnet Ah, yeah, class M Class m. 18:34.80 Bill White Ah, ah, he was going to do it. 18:37.95 Chris Well I will tell you they they didn't make that up like they they um that that came from from actual like Astro what is it Astro astrophysics or astrobiology whichever we need to talk about. But anyway so I did want to mention something was we were talking about all this on the last one I wrote down a little note here you know, really. 18:50.34 Heather Um. 18:57.50 Chris Why do we care about all this right? and it depends on who you are right? because if you are Heather and you're writing proposals and you're looking at things that are coming out from agencies and and saying okay so they want a a class three you know inventory or they want a a phase 2 or they want something like that. Well, they're first off, they're going to define it but it also helps when you're just looking at the blurb and you're trying to figure out what you're going to what you're going to bid on you. You understand what you're what you're looking at hopefully by just reading it right and understanding what that means. So so that's 1 audience for those is that's why you need to know that but as a you know. Ah, a field technician or crew chief for somebody who's traveling around looking for work and you're looking on shovel bums you're looking on arc fieldwork you're looking on Facebook for that matter there. A lot of job postings coming out. There. 19:44.96 Bill White This is. 19:47.23 Chris Yeah, it helps to just know what you're getting into right? like if you don't have the gear to do a full block excavation or you're just like not interested in it and you'd rather go hike in the desert and do survey you really need to know what these terms mean right? Um, and there's the other thing too I mean I've excavated in the in the high desert in Nevada it can be fun. 19:51.70 Bill White Oh yeah. 19:58.61 Heather Oh. 20:04.75 Chris It can be real crappy like do you want to swing a pickaxe the whole time or do you want to go on a hike right? That's really what the question is and and if you know what you're reading there just in case, the job posting was not very well written. They don't say exactly what you're going to do but they so maybe they say we're going to do a class three or we're going to do a something like that. 20:09.17 archpodnet Her. 20:09.52 Heather You want to go night. Bright Really good. 20:12.48 Bill White Ah, ah. 20:23.45 Chris And they expect you to know what that means then this is a ah helpful conversation to have So yeah heather. 20:25.10 Heather Right? I think I love this conversation I think I mean you could go. We could go episodes and episodes on this. But I think it's so it's so important at every level or you know for everybody. 20:28.10 archpodnet Um, yeah. 20:34.78 Bill White Are. 20:44.85 Heather For each step of your career. Um I'd say for me as a project manager I have been able to advocate for my clients multiple times because I look at it from the spirit of why we're doing what we're doing. So for instance, we had a project where we had done an extensive extended phase one which is and we had done. It was backho trenches. We had done like I think 120 backho trenches on a few acres it it was and it was not I did not want to do that many but it was. 21:16.14 Bill White Wow. 21:21.60 Heather Insistent through tribal consultation. They wanted this sometimes you have to realize that you know you have to consider what are you doing that's going to impact the site Obviously more than what you're getting out of it like if you're going to dig in the heck out of a site like you're impacting it. 21:23.70 archpodnet A. 21:35.00 Bill White There. 21:41.14 Heather Before we even get to the point where we're trying to consider how do we preserve it right? So that that can be dangerous, but anyway I had for instance I had 1 project where we had done so you know about 120 tobacco drenches and then the. 21:43.60 archpodnet Sir. 21:43.28 Chris M. 21:59.00 Heather Agency's peer reviewer was insisting that we also do a phase two. We had. Okay so we have a site we have a site we know we're in a site we actually knew we were in a site where what we were trying to determine was what was the the depth of disturbance at the site. 22:05.67 archpodnet Ah. 22:08.90 Bill White Wow. 22:10.70 archpodnet Yeah. 22:15.39 Chris Yeah. 22:17.45 Heather We had clearly gotten every and from every bit of information we needed to not only determine so you're looking at a site trying to figure out is this site Significant. It's not just about oh the whole site Significant You Avoid the whole site. That's not how it goes you're looking at what areas within the site. Contribute to the significance of the site right? So There are some areas you may not have to avoid and there are other areas that you will need to avoid. But this reviewer who you know loves to sit on the fact that he is a Ph D but he doesn't know anything. 22:37.99 Chris Um, yeah. 22:38.66 Bill White Um, yeah. 22:54.11 Bill White Yeah, and I was just going to say he better not have gone to my school. 22:55.31 Heather Um, anyway, he had um and he was insisting that our clients spend another you know $100000 or whatever on a phase two when. 22:55.54 archpodnet Um, what are you trying to say. 23:03.95 archpodnet Yeah. You. 23:12.88 Heather Okay, listen, we've already found what we have what we need to find in order to determine significance and contribution of significance and if we're going to and more digging is just going to impact your site further at least in the areas that we're contributing to significance so being able to understand. 23:15.11 archpodnet Yeah, you know you. 23:18.32 Bill White Ah. 23:24.44 Bill White Yeah. 23:24.76 archpodnet Right? You know I think I think I can so I think I can save you heather I think I can save us all with the textbook the definition of phase 2 man watch this. 23:32.40 Heather Yeah. 23:36.26 Bill White Her. 23:38.34 Heather Yes, the perfect. 23:41.00 archpodnet The purpose of phase 2 testing and evaluation is to see whether archeological sites identified during the phase one survey satisfy criteria for listing on the national register of historic places. Um for for a site to be eligible. It must have both significance and integrity. 23:49.80 Heather Yes, for. 23:56.49 Bill White Yes. 23:56.67 Heather Okay, so exec right? Well what? So I you know what I won that argument I was able to but it took some. It took some you know it took a lot of work. 23:58.13 archpodnet So that's what you you could even show them. You could show them the textbook and be like we did it. It. 24:11.68 Bill White Yeah. 24:13.15 Heather And the reason is because when people start saying phase one two and 3 and when you do this and this is what Tom King Tom King says all the time. It's this concept that before I go to three I must have 2 right? that people are not able to get past the point that sometimes the 2 is not necessary or. 24:23.43 Chris Right. 24:23.82 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 24:26.67 archpodnet Um, up. Yeah, oh yeah. 24:32.51 Heather The 2 has already been done through what you did for the phase one and yeah. 24:36.50 Chris Yeah. 24:36.40 Bill White Yeah, but I was going to mention that so this was a thing that especially when you were mobilizing backhos that would be a common like ah a one two type thing and a lot of times this would end up happening. 24:51.50 Heather Um. 24:54.16 Bill White For example, if you if someone has already done a phase one in 1987 and they said that there was a farmstead with you know, lithics as well and then they just never built the subdivision and so those acres sat there for 40 years and no one ever went there. Well now the rules are you know that survey is old which is. 24:59.81 Chris Ah. 25:05.45 Heather Right? might. 25:13.66 Bill White Good, especially nowadays when things can change so fast with climate change and stuff on ah just a acre a land just sitting out there that you know would make your head spin. You could find all kinds of stuff popping up that you didn't find in 1987 and so sometimes I've seen where. 25:26.30 Heather Right. 25:31.25 Bill White They know there's a site there. It's already been proven. But it's just a long time ago and and so then the client's asking for well we have to do a phase one because you know we need to see what where things are at how things have changed since 1987 but we already know there's a site there and we really want to build here now. So can we just also evaluate it basically at the same time and and modification to things you know Shovel Probe Surveys plus excavation units could be a possibility if you've got backhoes. There could be a thing where you're identifying you know buried. Surfaces and features and in artifact horizons where then you're going to back off a little area so that then you dig down only a few centimeters and now you have some square units where you can have x amount of one by ones or something like that where it's just built in so the back ho's still diging trenches moving. 26:24.58 Chris Um. 26:25.73 Bill White Laterally across the land monitor still watching it but we've got text and crew chiefs digging actual units at the same time I've seen that happen too. Um, yeah, so where does the boundary lie between the one and the 2 in that case. 26:32.71 Chris Oh. 26:41.29 Chris What and bill you're you're kind of reminding me with just I mean knowing what you're looking for and and you know just trying to figure all this out right? you were mentioning something in the first segment phase 1 of this podcast if you will that we were you know talking about going out there. 26:59.29 Bill White Ah. 27:00.12 Chris And and doing your pedestrian survey or doing shovel testing and not having the records checked down. You know the records check I just had just had to mention this that one of the other things. The records check does is well first off, it's 2023 the chances of you being the first archeological crew in an area are pretty slim like. 27:05.00 Bill White Oh yeah. 27:07.10 Heather Yep. 27:18.27 Chris Somebody's probably already done something in that area or near that area close enough and there could be some you know one-off cultural you know feature or something like that that you're looking for or artifact type or something that. 27:18.37 Heather Um, like somebody probably. 27:32.00 Chris You may have never seen before or didn't know was in that area and your brain and your eyes might just not be attuned to it and you know 1 specific example I can think of was an excavation I was doing with another company in Clear Lake California out north of San Francisco way up there and. The native american monitor that we had on there. He actually wanted to. He asked me because I was actually running that excavation. He was like can I do ah can I do a presentation to your crew because we've got some stuff out here that you know you may not have seen and I was like oh yeah, absolutely please do and he was talking about these ear toggles that. Honestly I'd never even found one before but those those big those big things that go in the the big like ear holes and stuff like that they had all kinds of different shapes of these and he brought some into show and I mean to be honest I may not even have been looking for something like that. You know what I mean I mean you see something strange in your screen and you're going to pull it out. But. 28:08.74 Bill White Whoa. Yeah, Wow. Yeah. 28:19.10 Heather I mean Wow! yep. 28:25.32 Chris If you don't know exactly what you're looking for or you don't know what you should be looking for then it makes it really difficult to just go in blind on a project I mean you can that means everything becomes suspect. But if you if you know something's in the area. Your brain is just a little more attuned to it. So the record search. 28:31.64 Bill White That. 28:33.35 Heather Depth and that means everything. 28:40.50 Bill White Yeah, yeah, it's it's sad I always feel it's sad when I go out and I didn't have the record search done when I left because also a lot of times they'll pull the reports too. So just like you were saying about someone already did the survey. 28:42.00 Chris Really helps out in that respect. 28:42.65 archpodnet Um, yeah. 28:44.25 Heather Yeah I tell. 28:58.73 Bill White Then you also read their narrative of what they did out there and what they found and so you know it It just makes you feel like you don't have everything you need to really be prepared for the job when you have not seen those reports and you have not ah seen what exists in the area. 29:06.91 Heather Ah. 29:15.95 Chris Other okay. 29:21.00 Heather Oh um, so we can do that you want to wait? Yeah, okay. 29:23.65 Chris Okay, yeah, let's leave. Yeah, let's take a break all right? Well, that's a good spot to take a break and we will move on to phase 3 of this podcast on the other side back in the minute all right yet. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. 29:35.60 Bill White Can I get a phase 2 of coffee all right I'll be back. 29:39.10 archpodnet Whatever man, it's always somebody needy. 29:41.71 Chris Yeah, phase 2 of coffee. 29:47.54 archpodnet I. 29:48.66 Chris All right? My coffee's out too. But I can wait the machine's really loud. 29:56.70 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, you're fancy multi hundred dollar machine 29:57.76 Heather Yeah, your fancy machine fancy schmanancy. Yeah I But say it's definitely more than it. 30:02.44 Chris I'll tell you what you know listen it was $1400 but I'll tell you why that's worth it because ah, but listen it was. It's actually our second one. Our first one lasted. 30:11.60 archpodnet That's a lot of hundred. 30:16.83 Chris Like 7 years and it wasn't even bad I donated it to my civil air patrol squadron and then we use it at like events and stuff um to sell coffee. We've made we've made 20 times the cost with that machine just doing a couple of events with it. But um I mean we hardly ever go to coffee shops anymore we we do and we just want to get out of the house and work you know, but. 30:21.29 Heather Um, yeah. 30:30.86 Heather Gap. Yeah. 30:34.98 Chris We don't do it consistently and it has saved us so much money and the waste when you're in an Rv. Yeah, even when you're you're on your tanks. You got your gray and your black tank and when you're on your tanks and and you've got your fresh tank too I don't want to make an entire pot of coffee if I don't need to right? We make coffee on demand and we've got plenty of power because. 30:38.30 Heather Oh I believe it? yeah. 30:48.99 Heather Um, bright. 30:55.15 Chris Solar and Lithium is not an issue or plugged into a post but like we're in a park right now and we're not plugged into their water and we're not plugged into their sewer. They don't have sewer at this site and they've got issues with their water So we're on our own water right now. So you know. Why would I make an entire pot of coffee if I didn't have to this thing just is super efficient for an Rv. Yeah. 31:10.77 Heather I Think it's a I think it's a great investment actually especially because like you you're in a Rv having a comfort like that like you're saving money just being in an Rv right? um. 31:22.59 Chris Um, yeah. 31:26.24 Chris Well yeah. 31:27.10 archpodnet Um, yeah, whatever. 31:29.16 Heather I Mean maybe not maybe it's an even I don't know but still to have your I mean for me I guess it depends on where you are living for where I live if I went and got even the nicest Rv possible I'd still be saving money. But ah. 31:38.71 Chris Um. 31:41.60 archpodnet No shit. 31:44.18 Chris You're right? You're right? Yeah yeah. 31:46.79 Heather If I was living in Mississippi yeah, and that's a luxury but I think having a caught a really nice coffee machine is so worth it. Yeah I don't have one you know what I have I have the I have the krk the Keurig. 31:54.62 Chris Yeah, it's definitely worth it. Yeah. 31:57.66 archpodnet Now Now what. 32:05.24 Heather That you actually pour your one cup of water in and then you put your pod in it's that single serve it doesn't hold a tank which I like because I I think those get moldy really quick but I do and you just pour the thing in and that thing is like fifteen years old I think. 32:08.82 Chris Um. 32:14.58 archpodnet Um, yeah. 32:17.38 Chris Ah. 32:20.57 archpodnet I Know that yeah I know that model. 32:20.68 Chris Nice. 32:20.87 Bill White Wow. 32:23.97 Heather Maybe it's twelve years old but it is old and it's still working and it yeah I I love it I'm gonna. 32:26.60 Chris Nice there you go. 32:26.74 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah Chris you could save more money on coffee like me if you just make some shitty coffee for yourself. Okay, that's how you save money? Truly yeah, you just make some shit copy and you know you drink it like a man. 32:37.10 Bill White No, no, no, that's not living Andrew you don't even know. Nope. 32:38.90 Chris Just get some sanka. 32:45.83 archpodnet Drink your shitty coffee like a man and that's I'm so glad I'm here to teach you people some shit that's I'm a greater man because I'll drink whatever it is. It's vaguely black. Whatever I'm good. 32:49.61 Bill White Come on Andrew you don't want to be a lesser man. You want to be a good man and a good man has a good cup of coffee in their hand I don't want you drinking out of a puddle out of a you know gas station parking lot come on, get some good. Don't do it. Don't do it. 32:58.90 Chris Um, Andrew. 33:03.10 archpodnet Oh I'll do it. Yeah I work in the jungle. 33:03.60 Chris Um, it Andrew Listen listen when you when you were when you were floating on your surfboard high down in Southern California I was serving our United States navy on the uss enterprise. Yeah. 33:09.57 Bill White I Don't want you to do? Yeah no joke. 33:17.13 archpodnet Um, yeah, you mean all the time. Yeah yeah. 33:20.42 Chris I was on the Uss Enterprise drinking shitty coffee out of a percolator that we would we would make probably two gallons of coffee and we wouldn't turn it off or empty it until it was gone sometimes that took 2 three days ah writes. Ah. 33:22.62 Bill White Ah, ah oh God Ah cheese. 33:27.81 archpodnet I Are you bitching again? sailor. 33:35.31 Bill White They're rinsing it with the with the nuclear water from the reactor just like we got to get some to get this. They rinse the taste out. You know, funnel some of that coolant water in here Yi Gross you guys are monsters. Yeah exactly. Ah. 33:38.70 archpodnet Um, yeah is right? It's right? Yeah, it's right. 33:39.40 Heather Yeah, oh geez. Ah. 33:42.53 Chris Oh ran I've I've paid my coffee dues. Let's just say that. Yeah I know right? We'll leave it as a bonus yeah'll be a bonus segment all right. 33:47.60 archpodnet Um, we we should probably keep this entire conversation in this entire conversation needs to be in the podcast. Don't edit this out. It's gold. Yeah. 33:54.50 Heather Yeah. 33:54.67 Bill White Ah, ah, ah yeah. 34:01.97 Chris All right? Let's ah, let's kick this back off. We're at 34 we're probably aiming for about 50 minutes to see you guys now all right? So there we go welcome back to the sira mark podcast episode 2 72 we're talking about the phase class system and you know we're in we're in phase three now. 34:06.85 archpodnet Um, yeah, cool cool. Ah. 34:07.15 Bill White Okay, cool. 34:21.24 Chris So maybe ah, maybe we should talk about that I don't know you know phase 3 or just didn't recovery. Yeah yeah, and so you know again when I was working on the East Coast it was. It's really interesting because I ah my very firsterum project was a. 34:24.23 Bill White I think we're just we're in recovery where there's no data here there we're just in recovery. It's just recovery phase 3 recovery. 34:25.54 Heather Ah, yeah, yeah. 34:29.17 archpodnet Yeah, that's right. 34:41.18 Chris Ah, phase three data recovery is what they called it and ah it was an excavation and it coincidentally like I didn't dig a shovel test. My first like 2 years as a field tech almost three years I I got on I got on excavations the whole time like every single project was a phase 3 excavation and that. 34:51.32 Bill White Um, whoa. 34:55.61 Heather Yeah. 34:56.61 archpodnet Um. 34:57.31 Bill White Wow. 34:59.32 Chris Can happen on the East Coast because they don't have the ability to avoid significant resources a lot of time right? They have to take it up which means full- scale block excavation over here in the west. Yeah, just move your pipeline sixteen miles like who cares right? but over here over there. It's just like. 35:04.58 Bill White Now. 35:05.91 Heather Um, right? yeah. 35:15.10 Heather Right? Walmart's got to go Walmart right. 35:16.90 Chris You get your Walmart's got to go where the Walmart's got to go. You know what? I mean so it's ah yeah, it was crazy I didn't even know what what shovel testing or pedestrian survey was for like my first three years in archeology. So. 35:19.56 Bill White Ah. 35:19.85 archpodnet Yeah, it. Yeah, you know what? you know so funny Chris your story. Your story is my story to yours like I have that same story in the west but Coastal California same deal like I was a world of phase twos like I did I did one by ones like forever before i. 35:27.31 Bill White So what? what happened when you what happened when you realized that. 35:28.20 Heather Yeah, you know. 35:37.66 Bill White Now. 35:37.84 Chris Yeah. 35:42.72 Bill White no no I yeah I was gonna say my first job was in well my first professional job all the time was in western Washington where it's. 35:44.48 Chris Um, yeah, yeah, right? well. 35:45.90 archpodnet Did what you're supposed to do anyway. Bill did you have say so something to say. 35:46.00 Heather So. 35:55.38 Bill White Like legend is zelda using the machete to chop through blackberries you know to set up a transsecct line for people to dig shovel probes and then when they find stuff you're like oh my god we've got to do another. You know four more. Ah, ah, shovel probes and I've got to chop them all for this 1 person to dig 4 more and also chop a line for all the rest of my people so we did a lot of shovel probes. My my spine is now compressed from shovel probes. 36:12.33 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah ish. 36:18.87 Chris Um, yeah, well you. 36:24.80 Bill White But I mean there was there was phase twos there was threes but the survey in Western Washington is walking through the forest and digging a hole every you know thirty feet or whatever it says you know sixty feet 36:36.17 Heather Yeah I think um, you know what I had what I was thinking about talking about in the in the last segment First of all was just to talk about the record search I think you know when we deal with clients I Always we even have it in the proposal that the the next step first way of a record search. 36:37.48 Chris Um, rather go ahead. 36:55.43 Heather And that next step um, as far as timing because a lot of clients want timing and they're going to hold you to it. Our timing does not start until we receive the record search and unfortunately in California for those that don't work in California you know where it's there's a gate keepers on the record searches. It's not as easy as just going in and getting. 36:58.88 Bill White Yeah. 37:06.50 Chris Um. 37:12.45 Chris Um, yeah. 37:12.68 Bill White Um, yeah. 37:15.36 Heather You know the records you have to contact the information center some allow in-person searches some do not and then some have this huge backlog. It could take months to actually get the the results back and so you know sometimes we get creative and we'll say okay, we'll do a survey for you without the record search results first. Um. 37:16.00 archpodnet Um, yeah. 37:20.93 Bill White Um, yeah, yeah. 37:34.86 Heather But we if we do find something we may have to go back out and it will cost you another survey, but you know just to kind of keep things moving. We try to do that. But I think that people especially those that are currently working that you know our our crew out there that are doing the really important work of you know the Surveys and the and the ah. 37:38.76 Bill White Yeah. 37:41.46 Chris Ah. 37:54.56 Heather Shevel test pits and the data recoveries I think it's really important, especially for those that haven't been doing it very long to understand that just what bill was saying earlier is there. There's so much that goes into determining why you do what you do and you know like there's all this backwork. It's not just. 38:07.92 Bill White Where. 38:14.28 Heather We have we we get the okay we get the Ntp the notice to proceed from the client and boom we go out and survey or but we get the record search and oh we had the record search results now. Let's go out to survey on I mean at least a good assessment. A good and study does not do that You have to look at the soils you have to look at. 38:18.70 Bill White No. 38:31.50 Chris Um. 38:33.82 Heather You know your topos and aerials and determine your ground disturbance and and what went on before at least what you can determine from those maths you do everything that you can to set yourself up before you even go into the field you have to do all these things and that's why you know I do hear people they're like well on this this. Um, especially when people are moving from company to company this company. Um I didn't have to dig that far down right? Ah, that's that company. Oh i's only digging this or that company I had to dig you know one hundred and eighty centimeters whatever and there's a reason for that if if. 38:57.53 Bill White Yeah. 39:07.84 Bill White Oh yeah. 39:10.57 Heather Person who's putting together. The research design knows what they're doing there. There are reason you can go you can work in 1 You know 1 project site you can work in 1 that's like only one hundred feet down you know three hundred feet down the road and do have a complete different work plan because of. 39:28.31 Bill White Yep, yeah. 39:28.84 Chris Um, yeah. 39:29.45 Heather Characteristics of that site and so that's why you know it's important and that also goes into your different your different phases and why you can move fluidly between phase one and phase 2 but on other projects you can't. 39:42.94 Bill White Yeah, the other thing too that is an important consideration is your people because and I think Heather can tell us a lot more about this. You know any company like you just saying about the notice to proceed but also the. 39:45.84 Chris Um. 40:00.21 Bill White Project location and the Ape and the kind of resources that are there. Your company is going to have specialists that are good at certain things right? There's going to be field Texts who are you know hardcore and they can dig a lot of shovel probes but their paperwork is always questionable right. 40:12.95 Heather Yes, yes. 40:17.52 Bill White Whereas someone else who maybe doesn't dig as many holes they are very meticulous and detail-oriented and never make a mistake on that kind of stuff. There's also super remote locations and then there's locations where we can seriously rent a minivan and just everybody hops out and we don't even really need any tools and we just stand there and watch them. You know do a bunch of. 40:19.61 Chris Um. 40:23.25 Heather Bright golden. 40:36.92 Bill White Ah, backhoe trenches right? We don't need shovels. We don't need screens. We're just out there. So it matters on the kind of people that you're going to send out there and their availability because they're also employed on other projects and so sometimes you kind of hope that records check doesn't come back for another ten days because the 3 key people that you. 40:46.80 Heather Bs. 40:51.67 Heather Bright you. 40:54.11 archpodnet Um, it's yeah. 40:55.84 Bill White Want to be on this project did or the seriously the difference between this thing coming in on budget or not really happening at all are out on another project and if you pull them from that one then there might be questions about you know whether that one's going to come in. So um, the kind of project. Ah it matters on which of your employees or who you're going to recruit. To work on those projects and the the hiring manager. That's another major thing that goes into their um calculations on each project in every single survey. 41:25.77 Heather Yeah, yeah I think no very I mean you're just reminding me like we we have a guy who's just super I mean he's amazing at at diging digging accurately and very quickly. But he's terrible at. 41:26.10 Chris Yeah, yeah. 41:28.30 archpodnet That's a great point. Yeah. 41:40.73 Chris No. 41:44.92 Heather His paperwork and so there are times where it's actually makes sense for us to to put somebody with him that documents everything on the ipad of what he's doing it actually and they and he loves a dig but he hates the screen so they screen and they document. So you put people in in pairs to 2 and sometimes sometimes that's best and there's so many different That's why I get frustrated sometimes when people try to compare. Um, you know why was this done and and assume that the person with the M A right? That's always this you know. 42:03.33 Bill White Mayor. 42:09.83 Chris Ah. 42:13.12 Bill White Um, yeah. 42:20.17 Heather Concept The person with the M a doesn't know what they're doing now. There's sometimes they don't sometimes they don't know what they're doing but sometimes their decisions are based on all these other different you know, um issues that that need to come to play. Yeah. 42:24.25 Bill White Now. 42:28.49 archpodnet Yeah, thinking bigger? Yeah, right? Yeah Chris. 42:35.86 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 42:36.71 Chris Yeah, talking about your your guy who's ah, who's accurate and and quick heather I mean the thing I noticed when I really started doing shovel testing in the southeast which I get tell you what anything that will get you to move to the west is consistent shovel testing in the southeast. Because you know not only just it's yeah listen I hear you yeah I hear you I hear you but it was it was something there. There were some areas down on the coastal plain and in the Carolinas in Georgia where you know it's just sand it's 1 strat. 42:56.14 Bill White Or just the southeast I would you know I'm from Idaho so just the southeast is already enough for you to be like why are we here. 42:56.52 archpodnet I. 42:57.23 Heather Um, yeah. 43:15.92 Chris And there's no soil change. There might be 1 soil change or something like that and you're you're not digging ten centimeter levels in your shovel test. There are some places where you do absolutely do that. But there's a lot of places where you dig stratographically and down on the coastal plain was one of those places and like I said a lot of times your shovel tests going down as deep as the shovel will reach or the water table. 43:35.81 archpodnet Um. 43:35.81 Chris And that's eighty centimeters to a meter and usually it's less than that for the water table starts seeping in and then you're you're basically done I mean there could be more cultural stuff but you just can't get any deeper because it's not possible with a shovel. Yeah, you can't do it. But the point is I mean sometimes I was on project where I would do you know. 43:37.52 Bill White The. 43:46.67 Bill White Can't see it. 43:53.98 Chris Hundred to 150 shovel tests in a day right? and that is just pulling the entire the entire block of the shovel test into the screen lifting it up. You've got a pile of pottery there or you've got nothing. 43:56.20 Bill White Ah. 44:06.14 Chris You put that in a bag you you tie it all up and then you throw the dirt back in the hole and you move to the next one and it was about five six minutes between shovel tests when you're really moving so to Heather's comment I know to Heather's comment you usually have 3 different attributes for people who can do that and that's usually speed accuracy and stamina right? like hot. 44:07.46 Bill White Wow. 44:10.27 archpodnet Um, ah oh I crap. Yeah. 44:14.52 Bill White Yeah. 44:14.88 Heather That's insane. 44:24.10 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 44:25.34 Chris Yeah, how fast are they at the shovel test. How accurate is their paperwork and their holes their their shovel test to begin with and then can they keep that going all day and for the entire session I would say you could usually pick two of those and you're lucky you're lucky if you get all 3 hang on to that person. But. 44:25.61 Heather Yes, um. 44:35.20 Heather Um, yeah, that that's that's why I don't That's why I love being flexible in how you make up a team for a project. You cannot just wait for that perfect person you have to work with what. 44:38.46 archpodnet Yeah. 44:40.40 Bill White Give them more money. 44:48.17 Chris Oh. 44:54.39 Heather With who you have. 44:56.47 Chris Right? Let's ah pause for second I just got a whole bunch of static from somebody. Yeah, it just kind of went away so we'll cut it out right? Oh bill hold on Bill I think that was you bill I think you pulled your headphones out. 44:57.80 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah I heard that too is that? yeah. 44:58.18 Heather Yeah I'm I'm hearing that. 45:04.59 Heather Yeah, so. 45:10.45 Heather Yeah, it is. 45:13.97 Chris Bill I think you we can't hear you we think we pulled your headphones out. 45:25.90 archpodnet So yeah. 45:27.56 Chris Um.