00:00.18 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 2 73 of the crm archeology podcast and we are talking about societies and conferences and things like that and I don't know correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe you guys know this better than I do because I literally did no research on this but is the reason. Well I think the reason for things like the essay is and especially regional conferences and things like that is because back in the day and I'm talking like probably 50 s and sixty s give or take earlier earlier in some cases for some of these conferences out there but around that timeframe there just wasn't an easy way for. Educators because it was mostly academics. There wasn't easy way for them to get together and collaborate There wasn't an internet you know they had journals and things like that and journals are another story but they had no real easy way to just get together and share information and see their colleagues and you know do that kind of thing so it made sense that. Everybody would physically come together in a space you know once or maybe even twice a year and just you know present research discuss it. You know have to have that thing and and then also as a vehicle for publishing as well because a lot of these a lot of these bigger conferences. They have their own journals right? And that's what that was that's what I say you know probably most of their money's going to aside from the conference itself which is usually like a million dollars for like the essay is but you know aside from that the other big expense that they probably have is the journal if I had to guess just because publishing and all that but you know and and that there is some value there but I feel like the conferences have gone. 01:33.10 archpodnet Way off the rails for their original intent because there's little chance to even talk to the people who are presenting papers because they're just slamming them through They're always late. The essays has 50 concurrent sessions going on at any 1 point in time so you can't even see everything that you want to see they try to put stuff in tracks. So if you're interested in 1 thing. It's not overlapping with and with a similar thing right? They try to do that. But it's really hard when you've got so many presentations and I I feel like we'd get a lot more value out of the essay if they limited it like they do american antiquity antiquity. There's only so many articles they can put into each issue and I feel like if they just limited it and had more time. Which which is honestly was the idea behind the culturo share events that we're doing It's just 3 presenters. It's about 2 hours they get a lot of time they get. We get a short amount of time to present and a lot of time for discussion and questions and things like that to really share and discuss the data and and figure out what's going on there so that's. I mean that's that's the reason behind that. But what do you guys think is the is am I right? on the reason where how they started and you know the fact that they need to change. 02:38.42 Doug And well yeah I mean that's that's the reason they started and I think I think there's a conflict with most most all of these societies that occur which is like especially when you get like the big ones if it's not very very if you don't have a very very narrow. So um, remit. Um. 02:53.96 archpodnet Yes. 02:56.43 Doug And like a lot of big ones are are meant to be all encompassing. Ah there's this this this huge conflict of like they want to be involved in everything. But um, once you once you kind of become like ah everything for everyone. 03:01.67 archpodnet Oh. 03:15.79 Doug You instead of having like an external conflict where you know you need to hash it out with a different group and like if you were to think of like you know advocacy stuff like where you have different groups like trying to push you know different things. Um a lot of those big organizations basically become sort of all encompassing. Um. 03:32.28 archpodnet This. 03:34.90 Doug And then it all gets dropped into committees and it all becomes like oh yes, we should do this but um, the conflicts that out in the open and so you end up with these sort of sabotage things where it's like oh we need a committee to decide this or debate this and like you know and it should. Get as many voices as possible which in itself is not a bad idea but a certain point your committee of like 48 people never finds a day that everyone could ever always Meet. Um and it basically drags on for years and nothing happens as to be honest. 03:56.14 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:12.64 Doug There are some people I know you could choose any sort of hot topic like um I know pick like yeah nagpra but you could definitely see that those sort of things happening a lot in like the big organizations where there's committees to discuss things. Um I mean. 04:20.73 archpodnet Ah. 04:29.33 Doug Like that issue dragged on for how many well still drags on for how many decades decade I mean like the the law is is thirty years oldish um and yet and and the conversations that happened happened decades before that. But. 04:32.65 archpodnet But yeah, yeah. 04:46.29 Doug Um, that's because you know there's a conflict where there are so ah 1 group of people who don't believe that um human remains um of certain ethnicities should be excavated or studied or anything along those and there's another group of people who. 04:46.65 archpodnet Ah. 05:00.14 archpodnet Yeah. 05:03.61 Doug Who do? and occasionally you're now sort of seeing this like fight out in the open with those people with news articles on right wing and left-wing media and you know all that sort of stuff. But um, yeah, there's that conflict but they've tried to keep that internal. 05:18.34 archpodnet Yeah. 05:20.45 Doug And you see that with so many organizations where um, it's a part about organizations where they don't like to have splitoffs like if you look at like whack so world Archeological converse broke off from oh the French One The society of some preistry something. 05:34.70 archpodnet Um. 05:40.33 Doug Whatever, um, ah back in the 80 s and and whack is like meant to be very political. It's meant to be the political archeology organization. Um, and it's always ah, always cracks me up like every but every other year someone goes on the whack listerv it's like. 05:40.71 archpodnet Um, you know. 05:49.60 archpodnet Um. 05:59.00 Doug Oh we should keep our um, ah politics out of archeology. It's like oh man, you're in the wrong organization for that. But you see this and it's like they always want to be involved like when it becomes a big organization. They're afraid of like things splitting off and then losing power losing control and so. 06:01.15 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yes. 06:17.83 Doug Everything gets brought internally and you basically have these I don't know petty procedural infighting. Ah Chris I'll try to keep my ah cusswords down so I'm pretty sure I use like a cusword every time I'm on the podcast. 06:34.96 archpodnet So yeah, indeed. 06:36.90 Doug But you guys know what words I've ever throw it out there. 06:42.27 Andrew Sad sad sad doug sad. Um now I mean I think you know I've and I think many of us in the archeology world have experienced all this stuff. We're talking about in terms of organizations. Um. I think that the big the big mamas that we've already talked about be at the aaas beat the essay is whatever they're they're this weirdly like they don't do like what Chris was saying in the beginning they don't really do what they're supposed to do anymore. They kind of silo off and there's like you know 40 different little branches that are doing their own thing. 07:13.78 archpodnet Yeah. 07:15.66 Andrew And then every so often they oddly get some B up their bonnet and write a strongly worded letter. We're writing a strongly worded letter to some about something but you know what nobody cares? it's It's a hilariously ineffectual thing that you will We will stand up for. 07:23.91 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:33.71 archpodnet Yeah. 07:35.40 Andrew You know the the the ah the rights of of this river to flow free. You're like dude. Okay, that's great. But yeah, who cares, it's ineffectual. So um I think the only way out for um groups like this or for. People listening to the podcast you you know you're like what should I sign up for my students always are like should I sign up for the essay I'm like no sign up for the local ones you know because the local groups do what Chris was saying they do what the essays did in like 1952 you know you. 08:07.91 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:08.88 Andrew You have when you when you are a member of the local ones and you have a meeting. There's only like 30 of you there sometimes at the really small ones and you really get time. You really come together. You really learn stuff and I love the little ones I love I love the littlest of the little ones. 08:15.96 archpodnet The host. 08:25.35 Andrew You know, um, that's really all I go to these days I I just I get no joy out of the essays besides seeing friends and that kind of stuff but you know so it's like why. 08:26.80 archpodnet Um. 08:32.16 archpodnet Sure Well okay I mean along those lines though. That's we've had conversations about conferences and and how to make them better before and I'm still going to say I I do think there is value in joining other people physically. 08:42.57 Andrew Yet. 08:51.78 archpodnet Even though I'm I'm a totally virtual kind of guy and and it doesn't necessarily have to be physically. It just has to be a space where it can be. You can split off. You can have private conversations but then you can go and and then talk to somebody else and you can bring a group together that kind of thing and I'm saying that because it I mean it really could be virtual. It could be. 08:52.35 Andrew Um, yeah. 09:08.59 Andrew Are. 09:10.44 archpodnet Through vr it could be through second life for Christ's sake everybody could have access to that I mean something where you can have those types of interactions and it doesn't need to be you know a thousand miles away in a $300 a night hotel room right? It doesn't have to be that so it's ah because that that just puts up a. 09:21.41 Andrew Brett. Yep. 09:26.75 archpodnet A barrier right? It puts up a barrier to entry for for a lot of people and but there is value in some of those conversations if something comes out of it. But you're totally right? Those committees I mean I've been in some of those things where I mean shit people are so fired up at the conference but then like what happens if there's not 1 person driving it after that. 09:27.16 Andrew Totally. 09:44.85 Andrew Right. 09:45.40 archpodnet Then it literally dies right? You need you need somebody who can really manage. It's really project management and so many archaeologists are so fucking terrible at project management. It's just you know, not, we're not trained for it and we're not to you know nobody has like a I Really think. 09:55.78 Andrew Um, yeah. 10:00.54 archpodnet Project managers and Pis should have ah a project manager license to be honest with you a certification. Um, you know they should go through that course and and learn real project management and it's it's sad that we don't but that being said, nothing ever gets done. Um and I and I I Just think. 10:04.35 Andrew Um, yeah. 10:14.50 Andrew Yeah. 10:17.90 Doug I mean I'm ah ah this just sound like high level like Tin Tin foil cap like conspiracy level but part of it is also like power and like some things are definitely most likely killed very specifically because. 10:18.65 archpodnet Yeah. 10:28.42 Andrew Um, now. 10:34.74 Doug And they do it in a nice way again, you you throw it out to a committee if you don't want things to happen. You throw it out to a committee and you let it drag on for years and years until people forget and like I honestly like again I think I'm going go back with Andrew and say like. 10:42.62 archpodnet Yeah. 10:45.89 Andrew Um. 10:51.86 Doug If you if it's if it's something that you care about I don't know if it's if it's nag pra either side of the issue or if it's um, you know God there's we could probably name five hundred s different issues and stuff like that Honestly, you should go outside the big organizations because I mean. 10:53.58 archpodnet Yeah. 11:11.72 Doug Look at what happened with um I like to refer to them as the blessing but um, because it's blessings a group of unicorns because they're so rare but it is the ah the black black Archeologist society. Um, like if that had been an essay committee. 11:25.18 archpodnet Yeah, um. 11:27.18 archpodnet Yes. 11:28.58 Doug When like George Floyd had happened and all that they still probably would be writing up a statement about like what would happen and by being a separate organization suddenly they like they were so much more effective. Being a separate organization as opposed to being a somewhat appointed so-and-so so's friend. Um I shouldn't say friend but like you see this a lot in power structures of those big organizations where it's a lot of the same people getting appointed to different committees to lead to the same things. 12:02.27 Andrew Um, oh yeah. 12:05.90 Doug Um, some of that is because it's the same people volunteering. Um, but you know some of that is like you see a lot of how things are structured. They're structured to sort of keep the same status quo I mean look at Aa I I am not., There's going to be a ding on some people and I know they do a really good job but them or ea they have committees to find people to run for president or you know vice president or secretary and stuff like that and like you you have to be put forward by this committee which is a huge barrier. To being able to um, like run or change any sort of Organization. So if I if I wanted if I had a big issue and I wanted to go change the essay I would first have to go get nominated or endorsed by the the nomination committee. 12:57.60 Andrew Yeah. 12:58.20 Doug And get their approval or ea just change their rules. Um, recently that now you need to get like 10 um 10 members endorsements which is hugely limiting unless you know if if yeah that that limits to a very select sort of people who. 12:58.92 archpodnet Um. 13:06.46 Andrew From my God yeah. 13:09.27 archpodnet Ah. 13:16.19 Doug Basically you know we're always you you have to be a member and you're like oh I know a bunch of archaeologists but not all of them are members and it's all the people who are involved will know at least 10 other people who are members and could get nominated and stuff like that and you see it? yeah. 13:20.14 Andrew Right. 13:30.53 Andrew Right? Yeah I would even um so I would even say for for me who is like a mid career archeologist full time job I know a ton of people I've been in there a long time I know a lot of people are in the essay but even for me if I if I had to do that that feels a thousand miles away like it just feels like it's this little sort of effete group of people who just kind of vote for each other in the same little room and you're right, nothing ever nothing ever changes but I will say I don't think your tin hat thing is a tin hat at all I think it's about power like all the time you even see this in small groups. You got to be honest, like like it's just like. We as ah, human beings who are just apes who walk on two legs you know we just have these simple thoughts like you know me take power me keep power you bad because you were like trying to take my power I don't want to share. Yeah and and you'll see these It's almost human nature writ large you know so. I think it's it's totally about power. Lots of the time. 14:28.75 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 14:28.90 Doug And yeah, and so and it gets self-replicating as well like um and and so like another another note will will or link we have in the show notes is to this article. Um, and it's actually a really great like 7 part series about like how shit Sparta was. 14:34.42 Andrew Um, yeah. 14:47.72 Doug Um, they're really good at like propaganda but like there's one that with articles looks at like their their win ratio which is like 50% so like spartans are supposed to be a great. Ah great leader are great warriors and actually it's like yeah actually man you very much just flip a coin. Um and they may win. They may lose. 14:50.65 archpodnet Ah. 15:06.77 Doug Um, they they weren't really that great? Um, but in 1 of the series. He actually looks at like the political system and how it basically concentrates power um and eventually leads to like Sparta's demise because they don't have enough soldiers because they concentrate all the wealth and yada yada but. 15:19.39 archpodnet Earth. 15:26.30 Doug Like reading it. There's ah, a whole description of this. Um this ah side sort of elected body of the people who get to vote um and stuff like that. Um, and there's a quote in there where it's just like it's not.. It's not actually about voting. It's to give the veneer of voting. Um, and really to rubber stamp it. So Everyone thinks that they um have had an input and I was just I read that and I thought of cefa which is the charter institute for archeology because they actually have a whole they have a separate body so there's a board and then there's a council and there's a. 15:56.82 archpodnet Yeah. 16:04.90 Doug Which is made up of like all the little subgroups that they have and it has I don't know 40 potentially 40 some people. It's this huge group and they do all these meetings and they have absolute like they can only make recommendations to the board. they they can't 16:18.14 archpodnet Yeah. 16:22.68 Doug They can't um they can't vote they can't make a decision. They can't really push things through they they basically a huge portion of like a way to get involved in the membership unless you run for a board. Um is is basically like. The vast majority of people actually involved in some sort of quote unquote decision actually have no decision making power anywhere in the entire organization. It's there to sort of give people. Um, you know the veneer of like oh we've had a decision when really the decision's been Made. It's just. 16:57.13 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 17:00.94 Doug It's it's it's trying to bring you on board and make you feel like everyone else is on board. 17:05.61 archpodnet Yeah, well hey with that. Let's take our last break and then we'll come back and wrap up ripe up this discussion on the other side back in a minute welcome back to the cm archeology podcast episode 2 73 and again we are talking about. The the garbage dumpster fire that is conferences and archaeological societies and things like that. So but let's try to figure out I mean where where do we go from here right? And again, we've had this discussion before but you know how do we make or what we'd like to see. You know, ah in ah in a modern setting. You know what? what can these things do and do they have any place in um, like I think you said Andrew in the very beginning was you know you see these you know lobbying and and and writing a strongly worded letter to congress or something like that. The essay does that all the time you know when something comes out. 17:55.36 Andrew Right? right. 17:58.61 archpodnet But it literally has no teeth because who are they and what do they do right? I mean sure they represent a lot of archeologists. But unlike other institutions that are say um, unions or actual professional societies where people have to join in order to get hired right? like apprenticeships and things like that. Um you know those types of things. They actually have some power because you know you can You can tell their people to strike and and not and not actually work for anybody right and that they'll just grind business to a halt but Archeology is not like that yet right? and if it is if it was then we'd have a lot more power but we simply don't So. What can we do. 18:25.55 Andrew Um, right? Yeah yeah I don't know you know it's I think it's It's a combination of things. It's obviously kind of ah a brave new world for. 18:35.91 archpodnet Um. 18:40.33 Andrew A bunch of this stuff just because technology's gotten so much better. Zoom has gotten so much better in just the last you know, handful of years I I would sort of just go back to saying for big organizations like the essays or something like that and I don't mean to poo-poo the essays too harshly I'm super glad they're there. You know I'm i'm. 18:56.30 archpodnet Um, yeah. 18:58.57 Andrew I'm happy to to be a member and I always wish them well but at the same time you know there are certain things that are intrinsically funny about what they do so um I would say in terms of the the big meetings. They got to have a larger like online component. They got to have just like a Zoom component or a component where you can just watch the meetings from home. They totally don't do that right? They in terms of kind of. 19:19.93 archpodnet Um, no. 19:22.33 Andrew Gate keeping it or leaving it so others can't enjoy you just have to spend all the money to fly to Denver and have a hotel and all that stuff. It is not worth it. You know so why not have that be have a much stronger virtual component. But then the local meetings. Those can stay. You know, totally local, totally in person because those are great. Um, again, the local ones do them perfect that I got no complaints I'm like local meetings just keep doing what you're doing those are great. You know, but but as you get bigger I think there is that responsibility to have. 19:44.13 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 19:56.65 Andrew An online component because it ultimately could be really healthy for the essays they could get more people into it. You know if they had this and I know they could do it. They throw up every single excuse just like to go back to what Doug was saying about the you know subverting things. 20:02.39 archpodnet Ah. 20:14.14 Andrew It's like the essay goes I Just ah, can we can't We can't never do I think one of the lines in that subversion manual was act stupid and and you know they'll ah don't this computer thing. Ah we can't do this I' that's impossible. You know you like stop it. So that's what I would say. 20:19.81 archpodnet Yeah. 20:26.16 archpodnet Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, it's ah you're not wrong. Yeah, and and a comment on the virtual component thing I don't know how many other industry conferences do this. But. 20:34.34 Andrew Ah, so. 20:41.86 archpodnet I've gone to several podcasting conferences and I've mentioned it on this show before but maybe somebody from the essays is listening I've always heard because we we've presented at the essay before to the essay leadership many times The archeology Podcast Network has said hey can we record some shows officially and then release those and you know even if we just do it. For you guys and you release it behind your own paywall there because it's the conference. They've always been reluctant to do that because they're like well then people won't go to the conference and then we lose all our money on this hotel because it's super expensive to to pay for the whole thing which I understand but that being said, you know you've got. 21:11.15 Andrew Um, yeah. 21:17.58 archpodnet But a few thousand people there and there's probably 3 or 4 times that in the industry that just can't make it or can't go and and and yeah and part of the reason why there's so many papers concurrently is because the reason people go the reason they get funding for it is so they can present so I would say most of the people that are there are probably presenting. 21:21.38 Andrew Easy. 21:36.53 archpodnet Right? So all all the ones that want to go and just have discussions with their colleagues and stuff they either can't go because they can't get the funding for it or you know it's just they got one conference they can pick a year and that's not the one they're going to so but the virtual component so these podcasting conferences they always sell. 21:37.15 Andrew Um, now. 21:52.12 archpodnet A virtual ticket and they have ah a professional production company back there in each room and there's not there's not 50 different rooms that also would cause a problem I mean that would cost a lot of money I understand that um, but there's they've got ah ah, a professional company. It takes some 2 to three weeks to put all the video together and then it's up on a website and if you buy the virtual ticket. 21:58.22 Andrew Yeah. 22:11.74 archpodnet It's not as expensive as the in-person ticket but it's pretty damn close because you have access to everything and if you went you, you automatically get the virtual ticket if you actually attended the conference. So and I mean if you're having trouble paying for this to get done I mean just just have a virtual ticket doug you guys. 22:15.95 Andrew Ah. 22:21.12 Andrew Um, rather are. 22:30.59 archpodnet Have a company that does filming of the presentations and then puts them up I mean how do the how do the conferences pay for that. You know what I mean is it just they've just raised the price for everybody or you know how did I don't understand how they pay for that and then get away with it. 22:43.11 Doug Ah, well, it's not company. It's a charity. Um, and that's that's that's how most of them get away with it is because I'm I'm always grateful when people pay but usually um, they they they pay for like ah. 22:46.68 archpodnet Well sure. 22:58.21 archpodnet Um. 23:00.58 Doug Travel and accommodation and that's that's about it. But um I mean just just go back. Ah, the cefa conference. There was about 200 people online 200 people in person. Ah ea ah 600 people online. 23:02.40 archpodnet Oh no. 23:09.60 archpodnet Are yeah. 23:19.54 Doug So it's not it wasn't is even but it was 600 people and maybe 2703000 or something in person. Um or or 2600 I need to remember what it was but you know it's it's a significant amount. Um i. 23:24.93 archpodnet Um, yeah, well yeah. 23:37.32 Doug I There's that's there's a whole other podcast about the economics of how how those things can work. Um, yeah, so it it is doable. Um, but you know I Also think again this is like. 23:42.64 archpodnet Sure. 23:49.60 archpodnet Um. 23:55.91 Doug Internal conflicts of organizations like if you had an entirely online conference then people don't get to be sent to nice places to have a little get-togethers. Um. 24:09.81 archpodnet Yeah. 24:12.60 Doug Or you know, ah there's There's a huge. There's a lot of like you know, a lot of fear in organizations. Um, where they I would say yeah they want to be involved in everything Um, but they want everything to stay the same because it feels comfortable. 24:23.80 archpodnet Um. 24:29.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 24:31.60 Doug And there's no risk um and's go back to the comments. Um I know um ah I ah channel my um, my my bill my bill on tenure. Um, and just say burn it all down. Um, ah but no like seriously like I think Andrew had a great point where like. 24:43.74 archpodnet Yeah. 24:51.37 Doug Some of these things you see you see in small groups like everyone we keep talking about this manual you guys Really if you're if you're listening to this you you need to go and and read it. Um, yeah, but you you'll see this in non archeology things. It's it's It's like how to sabotage and it's it's brilliant and you see it in a lot of things. Um, and. 25:00.41 Andrew Hilarious. 25:10.82 Doug I I honestly think that if people are are truly interested in like seeing a change I know you could pick whatever change you want that to be whether it be. You know the adoption of of three inch trowls over the five inch um you know and that's that's your thing. Ah yes, yes, see wherever Hill you? Whatever hills you want to die on. Um I I think people need to actually like we don't give enough enough tools. 25:31.50 Andrew Ah I will die on the hell. Yeah. 25:47.68 Doug People on how to go through the process of making that change. Um, and so everyone then immediately pushes it onto the big organizations. Hey why aren't you caring about my three inch trial um issue and um, they get overwhelmed but also they get they're like oh well. 25:48.77 Andrew Um, yeah, yeah. 25:49.70 archpodnet Yeah. 25:58.28 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 26:00.21 Andrew Ah. 26:03.97 archpodnet Are. 26:07.31 Doug If if our members are interested in this. We we have to say something we need to put out a statement about the three inch trial versus the five inch and and you know Marshall town versus Whs and you know, um that this is an issue where we we to look like we're doing something. Um. 26:13.72 Andrew I. 26:24.88 Doug And that's not it like that's not the way to go forward. That's that is a good way to like kill whatever initiative you have um is to try to go through a large organization. Um, and that's not to say you can't include them but you really should like find your. Your three inch tro um, ah fans create your own little fandom build something and then you take it to that organization already hand it out and say you want to sign in onto our like ah three inch life for for life troll ah campaign. 26:46.27 Andrew Yeah. 26:47.56 archpodnet Um. 26:58.40 Andrew Ah, yeah I Totally want that t-shirt I need that t-shirt Dude Ah but I I totally but I would only say I would say one of the things I think you're totally right on all that stuff except I would not invite the big organization at the end because they're just going to screw it up. You know, like because you already have your group. 27:00.63 Doug You know? ah. 27:02.98 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 27:13.19 archpodnet This. 27:16.80 Andrew Got your three inch trial group you've made this grassroots organizations. It's really cool and people come to it and because of how modern technology and everything works. You can have your entire association and do great things despite them. They will only come in. You know with all the stuff we've been talking about with some big bureaucracy. They're going to tear the heart out of it. 27:30.96 archpodnet Um, yeah. 27:36.37 Andrew Yeah, so like I don't think they're largely not needed in that case. 27:38.79 archpodnet M. 27:38.88 Doug Yeah I think there is there's ah definitely there's a fear of missing out for people who are like oh you know a a ah million dollar turnover two million couple million each year you know members fees conference. All that stuff. 27:49.51 Andrew Ah, yeah. 27:52.53 Andrew Moving eating. 27:57.49 Doug They are the only organization that has you know multiple members of staff I mean SH they don't even have any staff do they? um ah triple a's have staff. Um, um, do they SH now 28:07.30 archpodnet Yeah, they have some yeah with that The yeah I don't know X with. 28:08.54 Andrew I Think that's small I think so I think I want to say yes, but. 28:14.23 Doug Finally has staff again like if if we if we're not sure they probably don't or it's they don't have enough resources. Um, but I think it's it's this idea that like oh there's a big organization if I could just get them on board. They'll bring you know this. 28:22.86 archpodnet Um, yeah, are. 28:32.48 Doug Doesn't some people paid staff to to make three inch trows a thing in the United States um ah as as opposed to your longer marshall town. Um, but it it doesn't it doesn't work like I ah. 28:43.70 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 28:50.95 Doug The effort you're going to put into that is not going to see the return. You're going to get from that organization. Um, in most cases I So I'm sorry I'm in the burn it all down or well maybe not burn it down just walk away. Um and build something new. You'll have to burn down what was already there. 28:54.63 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 29:09.62 Doug Ah, but I do think ah people have to build something new and probably we don't teach any of those skills anywhere in archeology which is probably a problem. 29:19.70 archpodnet Well Okay, so we need to wrap this up but I just want to say I'll bring this back and I didn't intend this to even talk about this to be honest, but it just keeps coming up but those Cutuluro share events that we're doing and we're about to have our. Fourth one? Um, we're having them quarterly. Ah my intent Honestly, my big my big Grand vision for the future is to have them at least monthly if not more frequently but they're always focused on a single topic and very few people presenting right? like I said it's more of ah, a data sharing kind of thing or a knowledge sharing type of event. And and discussion sort of thing. It's designed to spark discussion right? and and ideas and things like that. But the idea would be eventually to possibly even have um in-person events whether those are virtual or something like that where you're not just a person in a chat room. You're you know you're actually kind of attending somewhat. And whether that like I said is virtual um in some sort of Vr environment or or actually in-person just still limiting the number of people increasing the number of of um, networking events that there are there right? and the number of workshops I think Workshops. It's a good place to have workshops. And and learn Actually how to do certain things and and increase your skill levels. That's a good place to do that right is is places like that. So I don't know that's what I would focus on I don't know if I'd ever get to that point with theulur share stuff just because I'm very opposed to the in-person thing the In- Personson physically thing not the in-person virtual thing. Um. 30:50.23 archpodnet But we'll see I don't know so all right final thoughts. 30:52.26 Doug It will. Ah I'd say watch out Chris because like um, if you become successful. Um, you're going to rile feathers and um, you know? ah. 31:01.85 archpodnet Sure I don't care I'll be dead soon. 31:07.98 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 31:11.29 archpodnet Ah, yeah, you did. 31:11.44 Doug Ah, well else listening who's not planning a die in the next like twelve months um yeah um yeah I mean I would say deaf I've said go out and build your own thing but just be aware that like building your own thing. 31:15.86 Andrew Get. 31:16.30 archpodnet Oh my God yeah. 31:28.37 Doug Um, you're going to have and this is the the thing about big organizations. You see this with companies as well. Like I know how many companies now have an Ai division Ted of technical. Whatever um that that suddenly existed in the last month 31:41.78 archpodnet Yeah. 31:47.39 Doug And then like yeah going before that How many had um, got what were those little virtual things it sounds like it. Oh ah, cryptocurrency and then um you know going before that now all the media companies have streaming services even though they lose a ton of money and Yada yada. 32:04.78 Andrew Um, yeah. 32:05.69 Doug Um, but basically if people see success. There's a fear of missing out and they will jump in um and yeah, just just be aware like you may leave again I'm with Andrew on this I want to sound like. 32:12.47 archpodnet Yeah. 32:12.82 Andrew Um. 32:22.35 Doug Unfair to essay or any of the other organizations out there. Um, but they may come for you and crush you later? Um, ah, but that's that's that's life. Um, and again, ah I'm with Andrew organizations or organizations made of people. 32:29.50 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, indeed. 32:33.25 Andrew Stuff. Yeah. 32:40.23 archpodnet Are yeah. 32:41.30 Doug They try their best. Um and it's not we're we're just talking about them because they're the biggest um and we've sort of eat up on them. But that's not um, nothing personal a gets the essay if you're listening like yeah yeah. 32:45.88 Andrew Um, yeah. 32:51.87 archpodnet Yes. 32:52.64 Andrew Yeah I know. Ah no I would agree and I just I would agree with you Doug I would just say that I mean again, it's never been a better time to sort of. Do do your own thing I mean here we are on the archeological podcast network you know that Chris you may have a feeling for this, you know doing your own thing outside that says. Nothing do the essay How's the essays podcast network these days. Oh right? There isn't one you know I'm sure there's still somewhere in committee. Um, so you know good for us and also I am not I will say I'm not a fan of sort of the idea of burning anything down or whatever I don't like when people say that I'm like no they they do their own thing and that's great. 33:17.62 archpodnet Ah, yeah, exactly yeah. 33:29.31 archpodnet Ah. 33:31.76 Andrew You know and I and I wish them well but the idea of if they come for us bring them on. You know what? I mean like what are they going to do again I I guess another strongly worded letter is on the way to us. Ah so what? yeah. 33:36.48 archpodnet Yeah. 33:47.78 archpodnet I'm sure of it. Yeah, all right? Well with that I think we'll call it. So yeah, if anybody from one of the big organizations is listening to this podcast and you would like to have a podcast maybe on the apn or maybe just the apn can help you put it together I'm shocked. 33:59.36 Andrew And. 34:04.35 archpodnet None of the big societies organizations have a podcast that I'm aware about that I'm aware of right I mean I just I'm actually shocked by that even just to interview the people who are in your journals right? like you could have a corresponding podcast where you expand the conversation beyond the Journal articles I've I've wanted to do that before but I'm not going to do it for you. You know what? I mean. So. 34:08.56 Andrew Um. 34:20.44 Andrew Right. 34:23.36 Doug So I you should charge him Chris do it for him and charge him for it. 34:23.72 archpodnet It's just I don't understand all that So anyway. Well I would but none of them want to pay for it. I've definitely approached some of them before about that idea and it just falls on deaf ears because they don't see the value. So. You know that's um, we don't have the right people in place in those organizations that do see the value in that which is unfortunate. 34:40.52 Doug Oh, but now you do it's it's just that when they raise that up, you know they raise it up and it's a committee of 12 and 3 people see the value and this is this is why you don't this is why you don't have small committees Chris is you gotta make sure that nothing happens. 34:46.67 archpodnet Yeah. 34:53.99 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. 35:00.55 Doug Um, without without the control ah dead serious this is like like you will ah any any organization you go to? there's going to be people on wherever board or wherever committee that will be be like yeah a podcast man. Definitely a problem is is. There's only 3 of them and. 35:13.20 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 35:18.44 Doug 18 people show up to the meetings and um, always are going to get outvoted. 35:19.59 archpodnet Yeah, all right? Well with that we'll end this show and we'll be back with whatever is on Arche field text next week so thanks a lot by that. That's just me ending the statement. 35:32.41 Doug Well, that thought that was the outro you said goodbye already Chris you said goodbye you oh no no no you you're dogging us right here you said goodbye it's for that outro. 35:37.20 Andrew Um. 35:39.42 archpodnet I'll I'll cut it out I'll cut it talking. Ok here's the rest of it I guess thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field. 35:55.88 Andrew See you guys next time. 35:57.45 archpodnet Um, Goodbye. Ah. 36:00.70 Doug A whole lot guys I think we're rushing to conclusions before we end this ah podcast I think we should go by by the book. We should go through official channels before we end this um I would recommend that we actually we probably need to set up a committee. To decide on ending this? Um I only see three of us here. So obviously we need bill we need Heather we should get. We should get Tristan yeah, um, I'm sorry Chris we can't we can't end this i. 36:22.26 archpodnet We don't have one I am. 36:22.38 Andrew It's true. There's no quorum. We have not followed Roberts rules. 36:30.47 archpodnet Ah, all right? Well I'm I'm hitting the stop button because we're following Chris's rules all right here. We go by that's fine I'm ending it. 36:33.76 Andrew Um, that's true I didn't realize that that's correct. Yeah, um. 36:34.78 Doug Yeah, you haven't followed Roberts rules. Yeah I no no no I can I can't say goodbye I refuse to say goodbye until we follow the rules. It's who we follow the rules. No, you can.