00:00.16 Bill White Hello and welcome to the crm archeology podcast episode 2 74 it's crazy to think about the fact that it's 2 74 I'm going to be the host today. Chris is actually sailing the ag andnc and I don't know if he was inspired by the most recent. 00:07.63 Heather C. 00:08.40 archpodnet Yeah, it's a time. 00:17.82 Bill White Ah, Indiana Jones film if that's the reason why he's on a cruise in the checking out ancient sites or something like that. But I'll be the host today. Um I'm along with my companions the whole California crew is here. Heather. 00:29.68 Heather Hi everyone. 00:34.82 Bill White Oh my gosh I blanked out my friend your name is not host. Ah Andrew my god I am trat I am ruining this thing. What a joke the start over let's start over. 00:38.58 archpodnet Stanley Stanley ah and the other host Andrew yeah I just I'm shocked in appal shock see you know these you see professors did these you see for no dude, we're keeping it easy. 00:44.80 Heather Ah, okay, yeah, bill Oh my God yeah. 00:53.43 Bill White Now I blanked out and looked and it says host and I'm just like and we're here with the oh my style gosh Andrew ah, ah. 00:54.70 archpodnet Practices. 00:59.00 archpodnet Ah I like dude I did that all the time I do it like I'm worse I guarantee I'm worse than you with names I'm. 01:06.70 Bill White This is what happens when you just if you're you know if you're listening to this. This is what happens when you just read what's in front of you use your brain. You know you're supposed to read between the lines boy oh boy. Holy now. 01:10.42 Heather Yes, fill in the blank. Yeah. 01:13.00 archpodnet I I can't did I I joke but I I lose my mind with names every day of my life I'm terrible. So like this I deserve this fully? yeah. 01:24.87 Bill White Ah, ah Andrew can kella apologies about that blanking out your name is not host. It's Andrew. 01:29.25 Heather Ah, this is the 1 number 1 step of how a cm project can go wrong when you don't remember the names of the people you're in the field with. 01:29.62 archpodnet Ah, yeah I'll I'll deal with it somehow. 01:34.14 Bill White Ah, yeah, ah you don't need to know everyone's background but you should know their name. Yeah, yeah, are ah. 01:35.95 archpodnet Yeah, exactly now the next. Ah yeah, that's right? Ah, oh man. 01:43.47 Heather Ah, archaeologist number 1 archaeologist number 2 01:47.33 Bill White Ah, ah my gosh. Ah our our topic today is how do archeology projects go wrong and so I had ah an original idea. But um, now my idea has changed after ah exercise I did with my students this last week I found it really interesting. Probably more than. 01:53.18 Heather A. 02:07.10 Bill White Probably any other exercise I've done with students before we had a smoke day so I couldn't actually go out and do the thing that I had planned so rather I pivoted and had an in-class exercise where I divided up my class into 3 different roles and had them ah take on different. Ah, personas that are connected to positions and cultural resources companies and so we had we had quite a while we had 3 hours it was a lab class that we were supposed to be outside and because of the smoke we couldn't be outside so I had plenty of time for folks to work through this thing. And I split the class up into some common positions at Crm. Um, companies. So a third of the class took on the position of principal investigator and the the whole idea was that they were going to plan a short one day survey and that they would have to travel from Southern California all the way to Northern California and and you know the the plan was to have one day out in the field and then one travel day back and that the the pis were making these arrangements for 1 crew chief and 4 ah field techs and so they weren't digging. They were just going up there and they knew that there was possibly the remains of a farmstead. 03:17.80 Heather A. 03:18.37 Bill White Not a big site but it was within a large parcel right? So the idea was they're going to drive from Southern California one day stay in a hotel go to the project area. Do the survey record the site. There's 5 people. They're all skilled so they're they're told that you know they're. Their ah crew chief has a master's and a couple of years of experience and their field text had a year or 2 experience. They'd done field school and they had some you know time and cultural resources and so it was like you know you were gonna have your pretty journeyman you know intermediate level crew that was going to be out there doing this and we had plenty of information right. So I told them that it was a time and materials contract they just had to figure out how much it was going to cost to get the people up there and keep them there and then you know that they would just submit that budget to the client right? The client just wanted to get it done. So that I had a third of the class split up into crew chiefs and I told them their position was to manage the project. Get it done. You know they were they were going to be told how many hours they had to do it and how many folks they had working with them and that was just what was going to happen. It was going to be a day up from Southern California Northern California do the survey and then back right and they have 4 people that would be working with them and they got a map of the project area too. So ah, interestingly this is a space that we already had I had already gone with students before it's in a you know, regional park and so I just. 04:39.62 Bill White You know, didn't show them where existing sites were but just had a polygon on a Google earth thing that they could you know measure out transects and set it up and and there's roads in there so they could decide how they're going to get access to the area and I told them all about that then I told them they had to set up the lodging and you know get their crew ready. And then the the final third were the were the field techs and so they were supposed to have all the concerns of a field tech and I told them that they're you know, working their way up in cultural resources. They've been doing it a year or so um and they've done several projects and that they were going to be the ones who would be recording the site walking the transect identifying artifacts and all those kind of things. So for the first 10 minutes or so the the groups all started to work forward right? So the field techs are kind of like where is this place. They're looking on the map and they're kind of like you know where are we going to stay at or is the motel going to have breakfast like do we have to drive our own cars. Are we going to get gas money. You know how's this whole thing working what time are we leaving. How many hours are we out there so they're thinking those kind of questions I was telling them write a list of those things that you want to know so that you can ask your crew chiefs they're the ones who are figuring that out the crew chiefs want to know how much money they have to work with so they can make these decisions right. And so they're trying to figure those kind of things out too. How are they going to get people there. Do they have to rent a truck you know where are they going to stay at they're they're working through those kind of things along with how huge is this area. How many hours will it take like you know is this way out there. Ah are there any other concerns. 06:04.52 Bill White Can I learn more about the project or so they've got all these questions and then the principal investigators are thinking they start initially adding it up and calculating for all the people to come from Southern California up here and then they start realizing you know what? if we just hired local people. We wouldn't have to pay for a truck. Per Dm or motel or anything so we're just going to find people on the internet that are archeologists and just have them work the project and we're not going to you know hire anyone from the company and it'll save us thousands of dollars so these are these are undergrads who haven't done cultural resources before but interestingly you can see their thought patterns are already the same things that constantly are going on in c. Our um, folks' minds. Okay, so so after a few minutes I go well everybody's got these questions and concerns. So let's. Let's go ahead. Let's just you know ask each other and so the field texts are saying are we going to have per Dm. Do we get mini fridges like do I have to drive my own car How's this whole thing going to work out and the crew chiefs are saying okay well I'll ask the supervisor. But yeah, you know seriously are we going to get pretty in what's going on. The people who are the principal investigators are like yeah you know we calculated that we just wouldn't have any of you work here. We're just going to hire project hires from the area and that's it. So yeah, so so that the crew chiefs are looking like well do I have a job I mean what's going on the the. 07:27.85 Bill White Field texts are already moving on. Okay sweet I'm just going to apply somewhere else projects over class is over dope. so this so that I would go you I had to change the rules and say you have to include people from your company. Otherwise you won't have a company. And even though you can get contracts and subtry I didn't tell them this but I was like even though you can just totally get contracts and then take a few thousand dollars and subcontract it out to a real company for this exercise also so the class lasts more than 40 minutes but want you to assume that you're going to employ your own actual employees and have them do the project. So once I said that then the plans went back to what they were doing before they start making the calculations of how much it's going to cost and you know then folks move forward. They say oh you're going to get paid. You know the the. Ah, field texts were going to get paid $25 an hour. The crew chief was going to get paid $35 an hour now. Of course these are folks coming from Southern California people across the country are listening this like oh my god you know don't spit your coffee out. This is Southern California I don't know what true salaries are in Southern California but I think that $25 an hour is probably ah on the low end of an entry level and it would still not be easy to survive in Southern California and I know that you know the rate for the the yeah okay right. 08:46.75 Heather Um, it can be lower than that bill. yeah yeah I mean 25 is somebody who has some experience although that's starting inch up. Um it all to it all depends I mean what kind of crew chief. Do you need. 08:54.90 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:54.60 Bill White Um, what about the the crew chief. 09:03.79 Heather Um, you have all different levels of Crew chief. So sometimes your crew chief and you know what? sometimes if that crew Chief has has worked for the company and um, again, please don't everybody start writing nasty letters I'm not saying that This is the right thing I'm just telling you that if the crew Chief is a full time. 09:05.81 Bill White Um. 09:18.66 Bill White Um, ah yeah. 09:23.71 Heather Um, employee with a company. Um, you know they get an opportunity for a raise once a year typically and um so their their amount I mean you see it all the time it happens in every business people that come in the newest hires are usually many times making more money. 09:31.23 Bill White Um, yeah. 09:37.90 Bill White Um. 09:40.72 Bill White Yeah. 09:42.75 Heather The people that have been there a long time because they negotiated they had opportunity to negotiate their their pay so you know it field directors can be all over the place and I have a few I'm going to let you finish because I have a few things like. 09:45.40 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 09:56.95 Bill White Um, yeah. 09:59.85 Heather I'm sure there are companies that handle it this way I don't handle projects this way. But I think it is important for your students to understand that it can go this way but I would also like to provide an alternative so they don't think that all Cr um companies or all environmental companies work this way. 10:04.65 Bill White Ah. 10:11.85 archpodnet Yeah, if. 10:13.00 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah, because ah yes, so I mean a little bit of foreshadowing folks will turn into the you know all the worst trope as we still shall soon see. 10:16.53 archpodnet Breath. 10:18.20 Heather Because they don't but yes is. 10:29.22 Bill White So I'm glad to know that the price ranges aren't so incredible that you know I I Once again like I said I was putting this thing together after my actual day was canceled I needed to figure something out right? So okay, yeah, yeah, because all right this is this was the figure out. This was my this was the pivot. This was my backup exercise. Yeah. 10:37.72 Heather I Think you did a pretty good job with that. Yeah yeah, no, no I think are pretty spot on. That's a good midrange. Yeah, good midrange for what you're saying. Yeah. 10:39.92 archpodnet Um, it's awesome. Yeah, this is Killer. Yeah. 10:48.63 archpodnet Go Yeah, go. 10:48.94 Bill White Yeah, okay, okay, so folks go back to in act 1 they go back to calculating so then I I throw a curveball in there for all three groups. So for the the pis I say after you've made the calculations and your crew chief has made the hotel reservations and stuff is you know you know getting ready to go. The day before the client calls and says hey I got five more acres that's nearby. Can you please survey that too when you've already got folks up there. You know they did they give no map. They give no other information besides I got five acres also I want you to survey once you're done with the big parcel then go to this other smaller parcel so the the pi start making the calculations of like well dope. This is only a five acre area and you know we've already got a whole team up there. Let's just double the whole damn thing and make it be another day out there in the field right. So they set to work under those under those you know those parameters I go to the crew chiefs and I tell them all right? Your curveball is There's someone who was just hired about three months ago they just finished their ph d in an ivy league school and they're a field tech on your crew. But the whole time they've ever been there for three weeks they've just complained about everything they've been complaining about the supervisors. They've been complaining about the company about the survey methods about how things are just not like what they learned in their ph d and how everyone's wrong and they don't want to listen to anyone who doesn't have a ph d. 12:16.88 Bill White Which the the crew Chief doesn't have a Ph D and has to take this person out there and to make matters Worse. They're wrong on every measurement. They don't know how to use a compass they you know, never figure out any artifact identification. They just think that they're you know a prima Donna That's the best in the world and that everyone else is beneath them. And the in the meeting before they go.. The person is complaining about this project also and lets it go that they're pretty depressed that they're getting paid $38 an hour even though they have a Ph D which is more than everyone else on the crew and they're sitting there along with the other crew and they're the ones complaining about. How they get paid so little even though they have a Ph D and then I tell the crew Chief you have to take this person out with you and you're responsible for getting the project done no matter how their behavior is out there. They're out there with you. They're part of the Crew. So then I go to the text and I tell them the same thing I go. 12:53.82 archpodnet Then the. 13:09.10 Bill White This person's here. They've only been here three weeks or three months you've been here a year and they're getting paid $38 an hour and they complain about everything and you got to carry them through every project. Oh and by the way every mistake they make you have to fix you need to fix all their mistakes to get this project done because you're the you're the text and you need to get it done. So then I stand back and watch the whole thing go after that so they don't all know each other's curveballs the the pis just set to work like yeah double the money for less to work. Yes, yes, yes, they start making double calculations on everything because they're like sweet a whole other day that that is going to make us like ten thousand more dollars okay so then the the crew chiefs this it was amazing. The response because in my experience. The response is not the same they actually figured out that they needed to make some community guidelines for being on a crew because and they so they tell the pis that. They've noticed some kind of bad morale among the people and they think that if they can make several guidelines that include not slandering the company not complaining trying to actually improve yourself listening and learning to other people on the crew that this will improve the morale and so they put this piece of paper together. And then they go and talk to the text and go look. We know this guy's a problem but we want you here's the thing we want you all to sign this thing and the pis are like yes, sweet as long as you get the project done. Okay, cool, go ahead. But the minute they complain. That's grounds for a complaint and then they can start moving towards dismissing that person or they'll shut up. 14:40.62 Bill White And they'll actually get better. So I was like man that's amazing I can't believe they thought of that the text were like yeah you know what we're out of here we quit. So we're not going out. We want we want $40 an hour we we're not going out with that person. We're not fixing anything any problems and if we don't get what we want then you know we're not getting benefits anyway, we're. 14:49.71 archpodnet Para. 14:59.44 Bill White re te hires we're out of here. We're just going to another company I don't want to work with that guy. so then I was like so crew chiefs how are you going to get your crew to work is is it going to just be you and the ph d that finishes this thing because it's not really possible for you to do it in two days if it's just two of you. What are you going to do. So then they start talking about like well what do you really want. They're like we don't want this person on the crew man. We don't want this going on. We want a hotel we want per dm. We want mini fridges. We want all it and they're like okay let me see what I can do about that. So then after the whole thing starts to generating and the crew chiefs decide and some of the crew chiefs were actually super mad too and they were like you know what. I don't want to work here anymore we need to get that person out of here like I don't want to work for this company. So I let it go for about five or ten minutes and then I say okay now what's going on here and the crew chiefs are like or the pis are saying hey guess what there's a whole other parcel. We're going to make more money but you guys have to stay out for another day is that cool. The crew chiefs were like yeah, everything's collapsing man we better figure this out and then the texts are saying we want way more money or we're out of here. So the pis are like well what's the problem they go this person right here. They're a problem. they don't they don't work well so the pis are like oh that's the problem. Okay, well then they're not coming with you. They're fired but it's like whoa that was fast and yeah, that person's a problem. Okay, they're just off the crew. They're out of here if they're causing problems and crying about the wages they're out of here. 16:13.46 archpodnet Ah, yet. 16:22.66 Bill White How about we give you a $5 raise tax and we'll make sure the motel is in a good place and next a bunch of food options and everything else is that cool. Well $5 raise okay, cool. So then they also talk to the crew chiefs and they go look thanks for bringing this to our attention. We really value you thank you for putting those community guidelines together hey we're gonna give you um. 16:25.40 archpodnet Correct correct. 16:42.55 Bill White Ah, $5 raise also so you'll be making more than that ph d was before and we really want to keep you on the crew but don't tell the crew that you just got more money like don't tell them that you're making ten more dollars than them. But then everybody goes back to taking care of business like they go back to planning it and they feel like they've got. 16:56.68 archpodnet At any. 17:01.40 Bill White Everything under control and then the final curveball I throw up as I go hey so as your guys get in the the car and start driving to Northern California the client calls and goes hey over the weekend I was golfing with this dude. Ah who also owns property in the area and he's got some friends from Louisiana. And he said his friends do cultural resources all the time but that that company from Southern California is ripping you off that there's this whole truckload of guys that'll drive from Louisiana for $15 an hour no overhead No nothing you don't have to pay for hotel or anything and they'll take care of your Crm problem for only $15 an hour and so why would I stay with you guys. 17:28.71 archpodnet Ah, yeah, yeah. 17:40.45 Bill White Why am I going to pay more money when these dudes over here are going to do it for fifteen bucks an hour and so then everybody's just kind of looking like yeah we're not going to be able to like if these kids won't even work for $30 an hour or 25 then fifteen is like you know we're never going to be able to compete with that. And the crew chiefs are kind of like yeah so I don't think so and then someone was like you know what? you should tell them that if they want to roll their dice on some dude that they just met at the golf course and have kids from $15 an hour drive all the way from louisiana to san francisco and survey this thing if they want to risk their entire project's approval. So they can save a few thousand dollars on someone from out of state who doesn't know what the hell they're doing then we're not going to compete on that level. That's not what we're doing and I was like well class is over good job but it put the ball back in their court right? like. Yeah, sure. We're not going to try to go down to $15 an hour. We can't do it. We won't we'll go out of business like we're just not going to do it. 18:32.68 archpodnet Um, yeah. 18:39.37 archpodnet Ah, this whole thing that is Genius did I guess to take a break. Yeah, no, that's that's the that's what's great. But. 18:41.79 Bill White It was their responses that they're the ones who made it happen not me. 18:50.58 archpodnet I Guess when we return more on this Genius Lord of the flies moment.