00:03.56 Bill White All right? We're back with the second act talking about how archeology projects go wrong I mean I think ah I I was just astounded by the responses because these are folks this class is an undergrad class. The folks you know they didn't even really know. What Crm was in August and by the end of September they're already acting and showing a lot of the different characteristics that we see in a lot of companies. But I think Heather was going to help us out because of course you know this is like simulation in class and heather can actually. 00:19.46 archpodnet Can. 00:31.00 Heather Um, yeah. 00:35.42 Bill White Give us more insight on how this unfolds in the real world and. 00:38.66 Heather Well I think first of all your response or your student's response is an indicator of how well the class is going which had on on bill's back. Um, they're learning a lot. Obviously so. 00:44.60 archpodnet Yeah. 00:54.21 Heather You know there's there's a few things that I think um like I kind of interjected early on where you know there's some things that are not ah, totally realistic in every um situation. But that certainly could be I mean you have these small company people like you know recently. I've had somebody reach out and was asking about starting a COrm company they haven't even worked in corm yet and you know that's I think if anybody's considering doing that you really do need to work in the business first because you have no idea like you. You're really going to shoot yourself in the foot. So um, these are so. There are some things here that could definitely go in that direction if the principalfects investigators are not that savvy on a business end and have not been in sira' for a while. So I definitely think that that's ah those are potentials. But. Ah, few things that just popped out of my head because I was like oh my gosh I go to start writing these things down because I'm forgetting them but 1 is the thing is that before you're going in the field you're writing a proposal that um I just want people to understand that. Ah, unless unless you know of course there's cron companies and don't know what they're doing. But. 02:08.62 Heather All this is figured out prior to going out in the field. Um, and generally it's figured out by the Principal Investigator or the Pm I shouldn't even say principle Principal Investigator because Principal Investigator can be a Pm can be a project manager with management um skills and um. But they could also just be the person who is secretary of interior qualified who understand who's able to create a research design a work plan. They're not looking at the Businesside. They're just um, making sure that the work is done. At a so ah standards or above level. So You know the principle and I just want to make sure people understand that just because you have our Principal investigators does not mean that that person is a pm Sometimes you have another lab level. That's a pm and sometimes in some companies. 02:48.98 Bill White Yeah. 02:59.35 Bill White Yeah. 03:04.97 Heather It's not even an archeologist who's the pm. It's another analyst of some sort right? Maybe a nepa analyst or sel in California sea analyst who is the pm but generally the archaeologists really should be writing. The proposals and it should be somebody who has some business sense. 03:21.61 Bill White Yeah, and I also had a question about the name of calling them crew Chiefs right? because Field director sent felt more natural but then like I just kind of reverted back right? So like do we call them Crew Chiefs anymore. Is it just field director. Okay got it. 03:26.90 Heather Yeah, but. I Think it's just it depends on right? Yes, No no, we do I think it just depends on the company and how or or like in our company. It just depends on who you're talking to some people call him field directors some people call him Crew chiefs. 03:46.85 Bill White Okay, okay. 03:49.22 Heather Um I don't think that it really matters and sometimes if you have a really large project. You can have a field director and then you can have crew chiefs because you have multiple crews on 1 project. So now you have more stratification right. 03:54.16 archpodnet Yeah. 03:56.19 Bill White Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, and I I knew I knew about the project director thing and I didn't know if it should be the difference between owner or Principal investigator like I didn't know how okay cool. 03:59.28 archpodnet And right in it. 04:08.32 Heather It could be both yeah because a smaller c or m company it. Your owner is your pm many times right? They're the ones that are making the managerial position decisions and money decisions because they know bottom line. So. The overhead is important and this is something I know I've talked at nauseam on other shows about but the overhead of a company is really important to the finances and and creating a work plan that can work as far as from 8 fiscally it depends not all companies are the same some companies have higher overhead than others and so they're able to charge less or some companies their hands are high. They have to charge more but why would they charge more and why would the client go with somebody who charges more. Because that person let's say that that larger company is a 1 ne-stop shop the the um it saves the client money and time they don't have to go around and find an archaeologist find a biologist find this person. They just hire a environmental company and they take care of all technical scopes and. Or sometimes a project is an environmental. You're doing an environmental document and a maybe this is the case in this that you're talking about a resource is found and now you have to send a crew out so generally, it's done by the same company if they have a cultural practice that is involved with the project to begin with. 05:38.93 Heather So those are some things that I was thinking about is that hopefully you work for a company where all these things are already answered and a field director crew chief is not having to answer um these basic budgetary questions. However, it does happen. Um, that. The crew chief is in charge of making sure that everybody has hotels and everything um the the other thing that I had um is this concept of equal pay I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on it because that could be a whole other show. But um, Accru. Crew chiefs should get paid paid more than the tax. They just should um if you're out on that project and you're all doing the same thing. Everybody's walking. Everybody's digging. Everybody. Yes, everybody's doing from just a cursory look is doing the same thing. But the crew chief has a completely different level of responsibility than the text do the texts show up and they dig and they walk and they record and that's it the chief then has to take all that information if something goes wrong. They have the skill set to be able to um, switch. Strategy of you know your work plan if something comes up that you weren't expecting. These are all things that you're paying for the skill set of that individual to be able to handle something that comes along so that your project doesn't get too far too Squirrelly. So. 07:12.75 Heather The concept that a tech should be making the same as ah as a um as a crew chief is ah to me, not valid. Yeah, and then so the PhHD guy jeez that okay, so yeah, that's that. 07:18.53 archpodnet Right? I Think that's yeah, that seems bad. 07:23.19 Bill White Yeah, oh yeah, no, that's that's a critical piece of this entire exercise right. 07:28.10 archpodnet Ah, ah. 07:31.91 Heather Critical and but this that's everything I'm saying is not to say this this stuff does not happen. It does happen I Just want to make sure that people know because I it makes me sad when people come in I think this is important for students to have this critical. 07:35.26 archpodnet Dead. 07:35.99 Bill White Oh yeah, it happens. 07:48.70 Heather Mindset and to understand but they can't go in thinking that every company's there to screw them because that first of all their careers are going to go awry if they do that and they're going to be miserableas people but the ph d um I could see some reasons why I would do this? um. 07:51.72 archpodnet Right? Yeah, it. 07:51.90 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 08:07.90 Heather Why would have a ph d come out in and the field let's say they just started and we want them as a research archaeologist. So what we're doing is we want to have them do the ethnography of the background sections in reports but we still want them to have an experience in the field. And really understand and have respect for so the the purpose could could be a good purpose like as a pi I'm like you know what? it's an opportunity for this guy to really understand what it really is like to get this stuff done so they have a respect for the crews out in the field. They understand this. We do this. Health and safety officers. We do this with non-areologists who are Pms environmental analysts to get them to understand how hard it is in the field so they have a respect for our field texts and our crew chiefs so I could see a good reason why you would put a ph d out there. But if the guy already has an attitude. Um, that's like unfortunate unless unless you're trying to ah knock his ego down a little bit his or her ego down a little bit and that's the purpose of putting him out there but you have to let your crew chief know that so I don't think. 09:11.61 Bill White Yeah. 09:21.23 Bill White Yeah, no yeah now this this happens a lot is all there really is to it because um yeah I think it happens a lot more than folks want to admit because. 09:21.97 Heather It happens all that often. But if it's sometimes there is a good reason to put a Ph D guy out there. Yeah. 09:22.96 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah I. 09:33.41 Bill White Think a lot of companies do want that archeologist to be a research archeologist or to be you know a project manager or you know rise up higher and so they're rolling the dice on someone who has 0 experience outside of their ph d and you know they want them to learn how to do field work. They want them to get to the point where they can supervise cruise. 09:35.61 Heather Yeah. 09:50.91 Heather Yeah, yeah. 09:52.89 Bill White And they want them to be there for a long time like they're investing for like you know the the long term and I think a lot of times people come out and they've been fed a lot of stories about how tenure track's the only dream like if you don't get tenure track. You're a loser like all these problems they've internalized and how they've. 09:59.19 archpodnet Yeah. 10:05.33 Heather Like right? yeah. 10:09.51 Bill White You know they went into a Ph D a lot of times with the explicit goal I'm going to be a professor and this is what I'm going to do and ah who cares about the odds. It'll all work out for me. But then when they need to feed themselves. They go to cultural resources and so they do have a chip on their shoulder. A lot of times where. 10:12.20 archpodnet Yeah. 10:12.42 Heather Um, right are. 10:20.44 Heather Right? yep. 10:22.23 archpodnet Yep. 10:24.70 Bill White Show up and they've got a ph d and that's why I added the ivy league piece in there too in California reis california doesn't really have ivy league schools. So you're talking about someone who is totally used to being in that really privileged environment and they show up in Southern California and now they're doing a cultural resources job. 10:26.50 archpodnet Yeah. 10:43.62 Bill White And they're not even actually in charge of it. They're actually one of the crew the crew and it's a huge ego blow and not everybody knows how to handle that. 10:48.14 archpodnet Right? yeah. 10:51.27 Heather It's a similar circumstance as I have a ph d and I'm not making any money so I have to go to Starbucks I have to start working at Starbucks I'm going to walk in and have an attitude that I have a ph d therefore you have to treat me differently than all the other Starbucks employees. I mean it really is similar because they're so it's so far different just because you're an archeologist and everybody else is an archeologist doesn't mean your skill sets the same It's not the same and if you were trying to get a 10 year track you're not you're not your your dissertation. 11:09.19 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:24.13 Heather Your graduate research. All of that is not aimed towards Crm archaeology. It's aimed towards academic archeology. So it's like apples and oranges that and for yeah. 11:29.80 archpodnet Yeah, and that's it's so unfortunate. It shouldn't be that way. But I I do have to say that you know that first segment bill that was like the Andrew Cankella Life story like I've experienced all of that you know like a hundred percent that whole kind of. 11:33.50 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 11:42.73 Heather Yeah. 11:44.70 Bill White Um, yeah I also have too. 11:47.93 archpodnet Yeah, that whole kind of Kobiashi maroo. You know like the no win scenario the sort of destroy the slow destruction of the CRMCrew the factionalization like all that stuff I hope that every student in crm listens to this and and takes that first takes your setup. 12:01.15 Heather I. 12:06.90 archpodnet You know, super seriously and kind of like Heather was saying I'm not here to say that happens every time that that was not my experience over time. But I definitely experienced everything that bill brought up to to 100% like each each of those I know those people like I know them you know so I just want everybody to know that. 12:07.11 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 12:12.55 Heather Yeah I have to yes yes I have 2 yes. 12:18.13 Bill White Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah I mean I trained them in the case of the the Ph Ds who who come in with a chip owner I'm the one who trained them and kept them from getting fired. 12:26.54 archpodnet Upon it got close I Yeah right? Yeah oh I know? Yeah yeah. 12:32.34 Heather Yeah. 12:35.94 Bill White Because their success depended on me putting diapers on my kid and I could not I couldn't let 1 person's chip on their shoulder derail this entire thing and so I had to find a way to get the text to work and also for this person who knows nothing to actually just learn stuff. 12:37.33 Heather Hey. Yes. 12:51.99 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah I had a pert and. 12:52.87 Bill White So that we could get the job done. 12:53.18 Heather That Ph D I mean that guy's got it. That's an attitude problem. That's a personality problem that isn't just going to rear its ugly head in the field. It's going to rear its ugly head in every aspect of crm if if a company keeps that guy. 13:04.40 archpodnet Right. 13:07.52 Bill White Yeah, well yeah, yeah, but I mean it was amazingly how swift how the students were like okay that's the problem and all I got to do is just get rid of them sweet and then I was like well if you get rid of them then you're down one person they're like we don't care we we don't care four can do the job. 13:10.98 archpodnet Um, but it. Yeah yeah, yep. 13:12.90 Heather Not to say that they don't they do that because people. 13:18.93 Heather Yeah I agree with them. 13:25.72 Heather Yes, ah yes. 13:27.40 Bill White Ah, you know, ah it might take longer. It might be more difficult but if by getting rid of this person. They don't like it saves the project. They're gone and so I think that's all a lot of other Ph Ds they get in there and they can't hang and then all of a sudden. They're not working there anymore. They've separated. They've left. They've gone to another place. 13:38.32 Heather Um I agree. 13:41.58 archpodnet Yeah. 13:44.92 Bill White Well, it could be a company that's toxic or it could be the fact that you think that you're you know, bigger and better than you are and you couldn't hang in Crm um for your I mean for your own self right? because if that. Okay so if that person had walked in with a Ph D and had been willing to learn and listen. 13:47.88 Heather Yeah, and you yeah and you're a hand you're a cancer you've created a cancer and a crew. Yeah. 13:52.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:02.16 Bill White For all the this person's been here 2 years and done a million projects right? Those other texts they know how to find new jobs. They know how to scramble they know how to survive in hotel rooms like if they had really opened their eyes and ears and listened and paid attention and took advice. They would have ended up in at the very top of the heap. 14:04.40 Heather Right. 14:19.50 Bill White With a bunch of experience with a bunch of people who knew what they were doing because they have a Ph D right? They're willing to learn. There's no upper limit on a Ph D in archeology right? So once you'd learned and once you become a you know good citizen and a good colleague then you're like a total asset right? Then you can go to bat for the crew then you can. 14:20.77 Heather Yes. 14:39.18 Bill White You know, help everyone else out when they promote you to higher levels. But if you show up with a chip on your shoulder and think it's beneath you even though you're getting paid more money than everybody else like yeah, that's not good. Well yeah I can see that happen. Yeah. 14:41.91 Heather Yeah. 14:47.90 archpodnet Now. Yeah yeah. 14:49.54 Heather You know what though that happens at every level it happens with M a's it happens with ah seasoned text with B a's I mean a jerk is a jerk um and an egoistic is an egotist. 14:57.71 Bill White Um, yeah, you are you are right about that. Ah. 14:58.55 archpodnet Yeah, and and it's it's not. It's not. It's unfortunately not uncommon and ah with oh with that double negative we'll see you guys on the flip side. 15:05.81 Heather Yeah. 15:11.74 Heather He. 15:12.46 Bill White Yeah, ah.