00:01.77 Bill White All right? Welcome back. We're in the third segment of our conversation about how field projects go wrong in the field based on ah a class exercise that you know I think it I think it went quite well I appreciate heather giving us a lot of clarity because that that does um you know I put the project or put the. The um, assignment together in a few hours and it actually turned out. You know, better than a lot of other things that I've spent days and days doing. Um, yeah, if only I could recreate it if only I could recreate this for all the other you know 16 weeks I'd be. 00:26.37 archpodnet Is isn't that the truth though so much on that I mean it's just it it just Genius comes yeah but there's that. 00:32.31 Heather Yeah, yeah. That happens in my world too though sometimes like under pressure The best work. Yeah. 00:38.50 Bill White Gold. Yeah. 00:42.13 archpodnet Yeah there's that energy there you know like I think that's so great. You know and I will say you know back to that first segment I mean I had my Mike turned off a lot just because I was laughing because it was it was hitting so close to home. You know I'm like I can't ah what can I say this is this is so close. The other thing I would say is in terms of projects that go south like that. In my personal experience I've been on projects I've gotten hired later where I could feel that that stuff already happened. You know what? I mean like you get hired on the project and you can tell an Adam Bomb went off like two weeks prior because your pay is good. Where you're staying is good. Um it. It seems almost too good to be true and then once you're on the project. They're like oh yeah, you should have been here two weeks ago you're like oh so the ah setup that bill has given to his students there. There can be that aftermath of of things can get better. So that was that was just an experience I had and I know that ah bill you wanted to bring up what some of the ah field texts in the exercise said. 01:41.71 Bill White Um, yeah, yeah, because you know the exercise was it it Ah, it was also there was points involved too right? So like when there's when it's a graded assignment every week in the lab thing. There's some kind of assignment and it's always worth some points So folks were not just. 01:49.84 archpodnet No. 01:59.63 Bill White Like there was incentive to not just turn on Tiktok and just sit there right? So they actually this was their assignment for that day and also a lot of people really interested in it because this is folks that want to do archeology. They're going to graduate and they're thinking about going into archeology and this is sadly yet again. 02:00.78 archpodnet Right. 02:16.24 Bill White 1 of the first classes that's ever really talked about cultural resources. So this is their first real time that anyone centered that as a topic of you know learning and so they're they're realizing wow this could be a real career. But wow it's it's you know it's like every other career. It's not going to just fall into my lap It's it's complicated and so um, you know the the ah pis were spent most of their time was spent doing the calculations for the budget right? So they're going to send this on to the the client the crew chiefs most of their time was spent. Figuring out how the heck this is even going to work and then when they throw in the extra five acres they're kind of like well we don't even know what to expect with that like we can only plan for this other part but this additional thing we have no map. No idea where it's at like I don't even know you know what to do so they really were focused on other kind of like ah mechanical issues. But. The field text because they were you know, kind of out of the decision making loop their their questions had a lot to do with like their work conditions and so what I was talking to them is they were working through once they realized that they were going to get whatever pay rate and they agreed to do the job and stuff and they had a lot of questions about like. Ah, health and safety out in the field for the first time someone had ever really asked like do we do background checks on the people who are working with us in the field and I didn't really have a response to that. It's been a long time since I worked in crm as a you know full-time job. So yeah in academia there's total background checks to figure out. 03:45.85 Bill White And you know they were going through. Ah you know I took a training that was talking about the level of checks that we do for um professors that are coming in and so yeah, at a certain point we're getting ready to offer a job to a professor. There is a evaluation from your previous employer. They look into your you know other your conduct and stuff. And so those kind of things about harassment discrimination and stuff that it's more likely to find that for a professor than it is for our cultural resources I was kind of like yeah we don't really do background checks and then they had a lot of questions about like you know health and safety regarding. Them working with people. They've never worked with like how do they know they're going to be safe in the field with other people and I'm kind of like yeah I mean I I don't have any response I've worked on cruise before where I was the only one who didn't have a handgun and I was like man that's against the rules and all this other stuff I'm the only one out here that doesn't have one and and that's been my. How do I know if those folks are going to use them or like what's going on right? So that's like a whole I never really thought about that kind of stuff not necessarily that gun owners are going to just start you know shooting wild like Yosemite Sam but you never know if the thing could discharge in the truck or like if they're safe around it like you never really know. Same thing with knives you never really know if someone's safe with a knife or a machete or something like that these are tools that we've had before I never really thought about whether you know someone was going to do something with that. But the other thing they had questions about like you know benefits in healthcare. 05:14.90 Bill White And I was kind of like at the at the field tech level If you're working if you're a permanent hire for the company. That's your best chance to have healthcare. But if you get hurt out there and you know you don't have you're probably on your own for insurance. Most techs are on their own for Insurance. So The students are kind of like huh. You know like you can see their wheels already turning like well then I got to get to the crew Chief level. That's all I got to do so I can get benefits and higher wages and like all this other stuff. But you know that they had a lot of questions and we were I I didn't have answers. Maybe folks here you have answers on background checks or safety Or. Or any of those other things. 05:48.48 Heather And yeah I'll say um, you know of course I can only speak from my own experience I'm sure that there are plenty companies that that don't I would think in this day and age I would hope just to protect themselves that they would do some kind of level of a background check. 06:04.95 Heather Um, when we hire people we do a background check. Um I don't you know it's really good question I don't know if we do it for as needed I think we do. But I think it's like a cursory one. Um, for full time I think it's more robust. Um, that's I believe the case. Um. You know, background chests are expensive. It depends on how ah companies look at as needed if they're just always rotating as needed all the time. Um, as needs meaning you're just hiring people for 1 project or they're on call for you or whatever. Um. Maybe they don't do a thorough background check every time. Um I would hope they do but with that said, as far as getting hurt on the job if you get hurt on the job that is workers compensation. Um, you should be cared for. In that way if the injury is based on something that happens in the field. But again, that's something that you need to report. So if you get heard in the field you have to let people know that um you know there's we actually were just discussing recently our health and safety division. We are discussing within our. You know, project leaders. We're talking about how you know you have some of these injuries that happen over ah the period of someone's career. Bad backs. Bad knees things like that where where does it. Ah, who's responsible for it if you. 07:37.60 Heather An asneed employee. You know that's a little trickier. Um, but now that's where our health and safety department is saying listen you need to really? um, stress to those that are in in the field that if you are not feeling well we would rather catch this now. Before you go out in the field and hurt yourself um more so and is it because they care about the employees. Yes, it's also from a practical perspective because if you send people out that are already not feeling well and then you send them out now. The liability is even greater for the company. Because now something actually does happen while they're in the field. So if let's say you know they they kind of twist their ankle dancing the night before and they come in because they need the money or they're coming in because they don't want to be that 1 person that calls in the morning of and says I'm not feeling well. And now that you're short a person on the team but they push through and say they're going to go anyway and then they end up like totally twisting their ankle and ripping you know ligaments or whatever that is a liability It's not, you're looking at it from a shortsighted perspective of just pushing through. Which actually many times can just propagate injuries that cost the company even more so for as needed. Typically you don't have the full benefits just like any. 09:07.46 Heather Most companies you're not going to go in and work for a company for a week and get full benefits. It doesn't work that way I mean you have to kind of takes a while just to to get benefits going the full time employees. You should be getting benefits. Yes I mean I can't imagine a company these days not giving benefits to a full-time employee. 09:23.60 Bill White Yeah, yeah, and you know to I I have not had I have not worked for an employer I'm not even comment on my current employer. But I've never worked for an employer that was like yeah we need to take care of the health Of. Field Crew or any of our employees because they're like you know a valuable asset. It's only been. We have health and safety regs so that you don't sue us when you get cancer from breathing in you know chemicals from the site that we're having you dig or you know where we've decided not to sift. 09:50.12 Heather E. 09:59.65 Bill White Sediments that have arsenic in them not because we don't want to find the artifacts but because we think you might get sick after that whole thing Happened. So I I haven't been in a situation where they super cared about the health and safety I mean stuff like. Ah, wilderness first aid and and Cpr and stuff a lot of times I had to pay for that myself and I had to go and find those classes and do that stuff myself and so like when it comes to some of these ah health and safety things. The crew Chief plays like an important role because I've only worked for companies where it was just like and on budget. 10:15.48 archpodnet Okay. 10:15.82 Heather No. 10:31.90 Bill White You know, don't go over or they were really small and they were friendly and everything but they just didn't really have those kind of health and safety mechanisms but the bigger corporate companies. They did not care about our health and safety. They just didn't want us to get hurt at work that it could directly be connected to them. 10:41.93 Heather Um, I would say it's the other way around. Yeah I Actually you know it's funny because as you were talking was thinking myself for me because I've worked for smaller companies I've worked for larger companies I work for a larger company now medium size company right now and. 10:59.30 Heather I would say I feel more protected with a larger medium sized company than a small company not because the small companies like screw the workers but because they're not savvy enough. They don't have a dedicated team that is putting together trainings. We have a I mean it's we have. 11:14.81 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 11:18.46 Heather I would say probably a hundred trainings different types of trainings that during the year emails are sent out to everybody that works for us and saying we need you to take this training right now. It's like heat related training or um valley fever training. We have all these separate trainings based on where people are working that we require that they take them and now is it because they care they're humans. Yes I mean you don't have robots working in human resources as much as I think some people think they are robots robots but these are human beings they do care about people. 11:46.73 Bill White Um, it. 11:49.93 Bill White Um, yeah. 11:55.50 Heather I've worked with many different safety officers. They really do care and that's their whole job is to make sure that people are safe but from a practical perspective. You're absolutely right? They're making sure they limit the liability of the company. Well, That's a good thing. That's a good thing because. If a health and safety officer is looking at it and saying wait a minute I Want to make sure that um we don't have people getting injured in the field because if they get injured in the field is going to be on us to pay all the workers comp and all the and our safety rating goes down. All these things they're they're trying to prevent those things Those are good things. Those laws are there to protect and health and safety managers are there to make sure that they're followed So The company is protected. That's a good thing. Um, it's not just an emotional thing. It's an emotional thing. There's no regulations. So I think. 12:48.25 Bill White Um, yeah. 12:52.14 Heather That Honestly, a larger company is going to have their act together more so than a smaller company I'm sure there are small companies out there that really do know and you know what they're small companies that make care but they may not even have the tools or know how to protect their their um their employees. So. 13:08.52 Bill White Yeah I think that I think that was my experience at the smaller companies that they just they did care about us and they didn't want us to get her and they did everything they could to keep us safe but they didn't really have like safety officers and stuff so it wasn't you know it was kind of up to folks and they were down with if you wanted to get the training. 13:11.59 Heather Yeah. But they don't know. Yeah, yeah. 13:25.90 Bill White With helping you get it and they would pay all the money for all that stuff but they just really didn't There wasn't a comprehensive plan whereas other companies man I'm telling you the ones that were like I don't know how big dudeck is but I've been at companies that seriously would tell tech. You know it's It's less. It's less expensive for me to get more shovels. 13:30.46 Heather Sure right. 13:45.18 Bill White Then it is for me to get you right? like you know you're as you're as ah, disposable as a shovel. You're just the tool I use to dig my site like literally tell literally tell people that you know what are you complaining about because within you know one email I can get someone to replace you So just go ahead and go. 13:51.25 Heather Yeah, we don't We don't look at it that way. Yeah, yeah. 14:02.62 Bill White And I mean I've I've so I've seen it happen in the field I've heard it happen before too and so I think. 14:04.99 Heather Yeah, but that is a It's an ignorant perspective and it's stupid. It's not practical. It's not right on a moral level but it's also not practical because if you do that you're pushing people and next thing you know you're going to have all these injuries in the field. 14:14.24 Bill White Um, yeah. 14:20.76 Bill White Um, well. 14:24.18 Heather They're going to cost the company money and cost the company opportunities for large projects because when they're yeah so when they're say like I said when their safety rating goes down because they have I mean all these go on the record and they're. 14:28.50 Bill White But you also oh go ahead I'm sorry, go ahead. 14:37.79 Bill White Yeah, well they don't all go on the record but all I'm saying is like you'll end up in the situation where we're at today where you can't find anyone to be an archeologist because there's no like they haven't taken care of people's careers or livelihood and every you know I get these emails like be part of my panel about you know, helping me figure out. 14:45.35 archpodnet Yeah. 14:50.27 Heather E. 14:54.22 archpodnet Right. 14:57.37 Bill White You know how to how to you know? can you train more people in University to help them go into archaeology because I I can't find people and I'm shaking my head like dude if I do that and they go and work because I already know your company they're going to. You're going to just grind them down and flame them out and treat them like trash and they're going to move on and do something else like. 15:10.43 archpodnet Um, yep, yeah. 15:14.27 Bill White So I already know that's the pathway for seriously more than half of people I've worked for those company I quit those companies right? That's how I got to where I'm at because I worked at those companies and left them. 15:20.15 archpodnet Um, is yep, see yet again. Bill you and I have the same origin story. Um I I had that I've had that exact same experience and that stuff lasts you know like my experience is my negative experiences. 15:20.35 Heather Yeah, and. 15:37.71 archpodnet Certain crm firms even twenty years ago I'm like they're on my blacklist even today like with my students I'm like no I wouldn't work over there. You know and and so that stuff lasts basically forever and people who get a little bit of power like Bill Areai in the academic world. We can really hurt them ultimately. 15:41.43 Heather Yeah, yes. 15:54.80 Heather Right? Yeah, yeah, if there are companies I've seen companies I've I've heard and I've experienced it back when I was not in a full time position I've definitely I'm not saying that doesn't happen it absolutely happens. But I do think that just because I do think that. 15:56.43 archpodnet And they deserve it. Ah so you know it's true. 15:57.90 Bill White Yeah, yeah, well the. 16:04.98 archpodnet Um, yeah, um. 16:07.91 Bill White Yeah. 16:14.75 Heather Think Overall you're safer at a medium or at at least a company that has a dedicated health and safety department because that's their entire job. Especially now there's degrees on Health and safety and ah, they're being taught the right things. It's not just. 16:23.91 archpodnet Or. 16:33.20 Heather You know, keep the nose clean of the company. But I you know I think um I do think that we should do podcasts just on how does how does how to people starting in in the Cm world or even Midway through how do they vet a company. 16:33.20 Bill White There. 16:49.47 Bill White Yeah. 16:51.16 Heather How do they look at a company and how do you determine whether or not this company is you know is going to be there to protect you? yeah. 16:52.11 archpodnet Um, in. 16:56.49 Bill White Yeah, that's that's huge I I Love that idea that's that's huge and well like you know I know we're at at time but the the field text came to the question of well is there Anyone who's really looking out for field Texts and I was just thinking you all. 16:59.14 archpodnet That's a good one? Yeah, ah. 17:15.95 Bill White End up looking out for each other through your own networks and everything and then you know the class was over but they're kind of like yeah I'm I'm pretty sure this is the kind of thing that you know unions would be useful for and I go yeah exactly because you're skilled workers that they can't accomplish this job without you need to have these degrees. You need to have the experience. 17:31.23 archpodnet Yeah. 17:35.47 Bill White So you kind of do have some ah some kind of leverage if you could put it together but we were out of class time and of course you know we're out of time here on the podcast. We've talked about unions before but they were kind of like huh I think that this is the kind of thing a union would help with and I was like yeah well go ahead and hit it and. 17:47.71 archpodnet Yeah. 17:53.70 Heather Well it it in the meantime though I definitely think I mean I think unions are if they do happen are are far off. Um, they're certainly not going to help the people that are going into the Cr world now and so they need to have an understanding of what are they going to look at. 17:53.78 archpodnet Yeah. 18:10.30 Heather What are they looking for when they're working for a company so they don't end up in a bad spot. Yeah. 18:16.30 Bill White Yeah, and you know Crew Chiefs Really do need to look out for their crew because they're not just a handmaiden to help the people at the top you know make money they really they they are dispro. They have ah ah a high level of power because if you think about it. 18:22.13 Heather Yes. 18:30.44 Bill White They're the ones who have the power to execute this thing and they're the make or break and they also have a lot of incentive on having everything go well because they're you know managers like they're the Principal investigators and the project managers of tomorrow. 18:41.77 Heather Yeah. 18:42.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 18:44.60 Bill White And you know learning those kind of skills learning that ability to manage people and manage expectations and handle these kind of things that are complicated like someone who's getting paid more than you who doesn't want to listen to you and doesn't even like you because you don't have a Ph D Nevertheless you have things you have to do? Um so.. That's a huge thing and it's a learning lesson and it's a human experience. So I you know I get got to give it up to those folks in the middle and got to give them up to the folks. You know that care like you're talking about at the top because there's not enough people at the top that really do care I. 19:12.69 Heather Um, yeah. 19:19.49 Bill White I feel like things are kind of changing now since they they're like running out of americans to do where you know us citizens to do work and they're and they're like well it takes many years to train someone well you universities aren't training them and I'm kind of like yeah well you companies haven't taken care of all the product we've trained for you know years and years. So. 19:35.28 Heather To her. 19:38.72 Bill White You know what do we expect? there's and then there's companies like yours where people probably believe slowly and you hire slowly and you manage and there's a few companies they're like that they really take care of their employees and they they do the right thing but you know I just thought it was It was a good exercise and ah you know. 19:48.75 archpodnet Ah. 19:55.14 Bill White I teach an entire graduate course sixteen weeks on cultural resources where they have to fill out an rfp and we spend a lot of time talking about all this kind of stuff you know whole weeks that we'll talk about health and safety and budgeting and like you know project to ah design and proposaling and stuff. 20:03.35 Heather Um, yeah. 20:11.98 Bill White But this was like a crash course in 3 hours pretty interesting to see how it all unfolded. 20:14.39 Heather I Do was all all just yeah, just great and I would I would say it just one to my last comment would be that you know. However, you think about unions or like I said they're not here so take care of each other. Keep your network. 20:15.32 archpodnet Um, yeah, it's great. It's great. 20:34.18 Heather When you are going through school for for those that are going through school now or if you're in the beginning of your career take have a notepad and take down the numbers and the contact and the emails of every every person that you work with because those that are working in as needed. That's your.. That's your list. That's your group those are your people to help you um, figure out is this a good company. Let's say you have an opportunity with the company is this a good idea. Are you going to be protected. They're going. Do they treat their employees right? Do they and treat their as needed right? So Just make sure that you keep your network. You are not an Ah Island. You're not on an Island use each other even though, let's say you don't have a union you still can be in Union with each other. 21:22.51 archpodnet All right? and with that watch this segue du. Thanks to everyone I'm and I'm saying this off the top of my head. Dude you can tell thanks to everyone for joining us this week and thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and. 21:26.88 Heather Hey. 21:29.17 Bill White Ah. 21:39.37 archpodnet We'll see you in the field. Ah by Bill. 21:43.10 Bill White Bye Andrew see you next time. 21:43.84 Heather Um, ah thanks for listening everyone Andrew that was impressive. 21:49.17 Bill White Yeah, good job. Don't read the screen. Yes is great. 21:51.59 archpodnet So good professional. Oh wait Heather did you say bye. Yeah, oh good. Did we all did it? Yeah ah all right? Did we work for Chris dude we talk about unionizing. 21:54.35 Heather I So I said by I said they well kind of sit by I said. 22:08.36 archpodnet The Union against the overlord it. 22:09.10 Bill White So did you hear? did you hear about those. There was a rebellion in the podcast like seventy eight years ago over all this all all that huge podcast money that he's making. Yeah yeah, did you hear about this. 22:09.81 Heather Ah, what are we going my throat store like I don't think I'm protected what. 22:18.12 archpodnet Um, no see I wasn't I wasn't no wonder he keeps it from us. 22:24.39 Heather What happened. 22:26.11 Bill White Yeah, he hides and he hides it all. There were some there were some people who had podcasts and they were just like pissed off. They want their podcast money and Chris is just making money off of these guys on this podcast just rolling in dough and. 22:34.37 archpodnet Ah, like me he is. 22:41.23 Bill White You know what a monster he was and they want all their own. They want all their own tracks. They want them all off of the the podcast and that he doesn't get to keep them and they want them and they're going to start their own podcast and so he gave it all to them and stuff and we all. We all signed a thing that was like the royalties for the podcast Network go to the Podcast network. 22:43.34 archpodnet That's true. 22:53.21 Heather Take it. 22:54.97 archpodnet Um, is that um. 22:58.67 archpodnet Yeah. 23:01.12 Bill White And I was like yeah all all $13 a year. You can keep all of that man like right on dude he he doesn't even get paid I don't know how much he gets paid but he he isn't making the kind of cash that they were saying and I have listened to their podcasts since then. 23:03.45 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 23:03.86 Heather Yeah I mean come on like what is he making. 23:13.79 Heather No, that's stupid. 23:18.00 archpodnet Yeah, is yeah. 23:18.56 Bill White Sound quality sucks what they're doing on their sucks. It's just a long long jaral while they're drinking beers and stuff it was. It's just bad now. But you know they they like I said we're working for him. Well we we signed the contract that we would work for him in the Api. 23:30.70 archpodnet And I wonder yeah do you know? um, do you know if the one that I do do you know if they were a part of that that like Arcie fantasies did they is that when they left or was it. Yeah okay because I have that there's that feeling with them. 23:40.92 Bill White Ah I don't know if they were like the main complainant. There were some other people who were complaining though. 23:47.76 archpodnet Um, I'll stop recording now just so because I thought Chris should hear all of this yeah Chris here we we're coming for you and workers unite. 23:48.94 Bill White Um, yeah, ah. 23:54.70 Heather Um, ah.