00:00.30 archpodnet Hello and welcome to the CRM archeological podcast episode 275 I'm your host I know I know your host Dr Andrew Kinkella is freaking out at 275 episodes 00:08.46 Bill White Holy Cow It's crazy. 00:18.93 archpodnet So I'm here and also joining me from the sunny state of California is bill white hello bill and also from the sunny state of California is 3 people from the sunny state of California Heather Heather what's up 00:23.78 Bill White Good morning. 00:31.67 Bill White Um, yeah. 00:33.58 Heather And more a bill I think you're probably the only one that's actually of this three that was that's been a part of all 275 not every single one of them. But you've been there from beginning right? Yeah yeah. 00:45.19 archpodnet Um, yeah. 00:45.39 Bill White Um, but yeah since the beginning. Yeah I have listened to all two seventy five too because what folks don't know is I'm probably the one person that does listen to every single one of them. 00:53.26 Heather I Just might say that that's actually even more impressive than being a part of right. 00:58.31 archpodnet Yeah, you're even you're even more of a narcissist than me and that's um, that's impressive to because like I've only I mean I listen to both with me in it. But ah. 01:01.25 Bill White Ah, well I'm just waiting to hear why you? yeah well I just try to listen to see what you're gonna say about me when I'm not on it So I got to listen. 01:09.37 Heather Um. 01:13.89 archpodnet Um I dude actually I honestly I do listen to the other ones too. Just so just so I'm not behind you know I'm like oh my god what they say something but and and I don't know next time I'll look like a fool. Um, yeah, totally. So for today. Um. 01:16.26 Bill White Ah, yeah. 01:23.59 Bill White Ah, exactly yeah. 01:30.85 archpodnet We thought we would take up the theme of damage assessment at archaeological sites and um, there's an article that we will link to on this that came out recently and I know that for myself I thought this was kind of a cool topic because we've all come across archeological sites in different. Ah, states of damage and we all have to deal with this but I thought the article did a pretty good job of laying out hey maybe there's some steps we can take as archeologists to sort of quantify the damage. And actually 1 thing I would love and I'm not sure if it's out there already or not is some sort of relatively simple form that we could use you know or that we could kind of download and make our own a little bit but a form just specifically on the damage. Um. That's something I haven't seen but I haven't looked horrendously closely. Anyway, yeah. 02:31.13 Heather Um I think um yeah, some some site ste projects are programs have um, have assessment forms for yep. 02:34.87 archpodnet Yeah. I right? I have seen those? yeah. 02:43.90 Bill White Yeah, in ah, ah, um, in 2017 ah, the most recent one that I've been part of myself and some other folks with a society of black archaeologists went and did damage assessments for the estate little princess and a couple other sites in the virgin islands after hurricanes Irma and Maria. And we had a standardized form that they wanted to fill out that I felt was like I felt like you should really just fill out the site forms and then have it be an update right? because they were kind of you know how many windows were broken on this or or. 03:02.13 archpodnet Um, you know. 03:08.11 archpodnet Yeah. 03:11.37 Heather Um, yes. 03:17.22 Bill White Just amorphous. You know, tell us the state of damage and there was no real instructions on what to do and so I feel like this the article cultural Resource damage assessment just pretty straightforward and if you if you look at it. It does kind of have steps. So if you've never done a damage assessment and somehow you're on a crm crew that. 03:18.40 archpodnet Yeah. 03:32.52 Heather Um. 03:36.68 Bill White It has to do it right? like this this gives you like 8 steps right? Yeah that fema does too. 03:39.17 Heather Be mom Sure Fema has a form. Yeah yeah I mean because that's that's what they do right? There's they've been hiring recently to? um, yeah. 03:46.15 Bill White Yeah, that's scary because then that means there's more disasters that are coming. They need more people because they there were facing more disasters. 03:57.19 Heather Were they're having more of an emphasis on cultural resources that they didn't have before that could be that. But yeah I think you know this really what you brought up was a very good Um, a very good point. 03:59.91 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah. 04:10.97 Heather About site recordation versus site assessment like damage assessment because how many times are site records. Not really accurate or they're not done very well or they're not um in depth enough so you know we come across that a lot. 04:24.28 Bill White Um, yeah. 04:27.81 Heather When you have a project and you do record search and you find out there is a resource on site and then you have to go and find that resource and see see where it's at in comparison to the site record and then this you open up the site record you're like oh we should just start from scratch because there's just nothing there. 04:41.20 Bill White Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I mean especially you know a place like California that has a lot of different kinds of forms. You have to fill out so you know the site form like the the basically front page is the. 04:43.69 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 04:45.45 Heather You know. 04:53.89 Heather Um, not. 04:58.27 Bill White Gis data and then it's number from the state and everything but there's a toolkit of other additional pages for photographs for buildings for you know, sites and stuff that you have to fill out yourself and I feel like that. That's the that's a good way to approach it right? like if you had a site and it's already got a site number. 05:09.31 Heather Well. 05:17.78 Bill White And then you just start using the forms that your state has to put together to to build the new assessment right? But in your discussion of it. You're constantly talking about well this site has you know looter holes I mean the article is very focused on looting and it's because they're using 2 cases where. 05:30.47 Heather Um, yes. 05:35.69 Bill White It appears like you know someone had been looting for years and years at a site and they were actually prosecuted at another one where it seems like developers ripped a site in Arizona. Both of them were in Arizona and so you know they're really coming at it from ah a crime standpoint which is I guess super useful for their purposes. But. 05:39.94 Heather Um, right. 05:46.30 Heather Um, the name. 05:55.18 Bill White Would say as far as you know my own experience. It's the damage from things like hurricanes and wildfire and erosion and floods and stuff those are the kind of damages that I have more experience with you know, assessing the condition of sites after they've been wrecked by natural forces but still they have a pretty good step-by-step thing which. I haven't seen anyone really kind of say here's how you think about it here are the 6 steps that you would use or 8 steps. You know here's how you would move through it and you know step 2 is ah like you know, getting a ah team together that actually knows what they're doing and coordinate with officials and and it also seems like. 06:15.90 Heather Um, and. 06:35.50 Bill White Coordinate with ah local communities, indigenous folks specifically because this one is using Arpa as the the pathway to do this kind of stuff which once again that means it's on federal land. So there is a consultation nexus for indigenous folks. 06:37.78 Heather Work. Yep. 06:51.60 Bill White I Would add you know it'd be a good idea to connect with local historians and communities and other stuff and in natural disaster kind of situations right? because they could actually know a lot more than you if you're not from that area. 06:57.78 Heather The the problem is is the reality of making this happen I think obviously you have to have something in place so that you have to have a system in place and I think that's good idea. But. You know I don't know if we want to go into the reality of actually making this happen the amount of people that it takes to do that I mean let's say just looking at wildfire wildfire in the state of California um, calfire is the agency that that oversees you know all aspects of. Wild fire management and um or fire management in general and they do have archeologists on staff and I don't know if you guys know but you know they train their ah fire crew firemen chiefs and in other fire. Um, um, occupations to look at culture resources and to protect culture resources which is excellent I mean that's that's what we want but in some ways. Um they're using it. They're actually replacing the use of privatized archeologists. 08:01.87 archpodnet Jasco. 08:12.14 Heather Because they only have so enough ah funds to have so many archeologists and those archeologists that are cal fire archeologists are not able to um you know cover all this expanse of area and so they've trained the actual firemen. Not all of them but they're there. They have a program where they train them and it's It's an extensive program but it's still not an archeologist and so um, just looking at that to be able to look at resources that are impacted by Environmental Damage. Just. Not looting but environmental damage is so difficult. It's just going to take an army of people so there has to be some I think not only a process but there also has to be I mean all all culture Resources. You know in an ideal world would be important but that's not possible. Have to look at Okay, what are the ones that we really need to focus on as far as damage assessment goes. Otherwise nothing's going to happen people are just going to be spinning the Wheel. So I think that's something that I didn't personally see addressed in the in the report um that I would I thought would you know the realism of making this happen. 09:20.61 Bill White Yeah, well I mean I can totally see that but I I would ask when you're recording a site How many of you write down damage from looting and stuff on the site. 09:23.26 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 09:29.84 Heather All the time I mean if there is oh you mean how many times do we see it? yeah. 09:33.79 Bill White Yeah, no, no and I don't know about how many times you see it. But like when you're out there and you're recording a site. Do you take that kind of stuff into account when you're filling out the form. Okay. 09:42.90 Heather Oh perhaps one I if I do or anybody on our team would I can't imagine somebody not because it's so shocking when you see it. Um and you have to you know so recording a site is not just. 09:44.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 09:50.30 Bill White Um, well so. 09:59.68 Heather Looking at the measurements right and writing down what are the artifacts but you're also supposed to that's what these updates right? The update forms are that it's so that the the whole purpose is so that you could see what the condition of it is now in comparison to what it was. 10:01.77 Bill White Um, yeah. 10:05.70 Bill White Um, yeah. 10:17.30 Heather The last time it was recorded so. 10:18.10 archpodnet You did. 10:19.69 Bill White So that's where ah, that's where I think the power if if you know it's not very many words right? So if folks read this thing then it doesn't just end up being a you know? However, you record it thing right? because because what's been happening so far is we you know you've got a survey area. 10:22.78 Heather Um, you know. 10:33.59 Heather Um, that. 10:37.71 Bill White There's 32 sites that have been previously recorded Plus you're looking for any new sites while you're out there. You're walking your transects you're going along and you know pretty much the boundaries of where the site's at so when your transect cross it. You get there and it's been ripped. And so then when you get to the site you're filling out your company's forms and you're talking about these. Ah you know tracks that are in or you know excavations and stuff or where people have been partying and totally trashed this thing and taking photos and doing all that stuff but the other pieces that are mentioned in here of. 11:03.27 Heather Move. 11:10.95 Bill White You know, really kind of notifying the the land agency and actually documenting the damage more than just kind of. There's a backhoe trench and a blah blah blah and this and that and then taking photos and measurements and stuff but actually talking about it in relationship to what we know about the archaeological site I feel like that's the. 11:15.78 Heather Um. 11:29.39 Bill White That's the piece that that's the valuable piece if folks are aware of this rather than just recording it as ah, you know some other kind of feature at the site you actually are going through these steps to to notify people. Yeah, this site's been ripped. 11:38.61 Heather You know. 11:44.90 Bill White And you know when you're writing up the report you're saying okay have these 32 4 or 5 of them have holes in stuff. They're luder holes. They've got modern stuff nearby. There's tents. There's other things that people have been living here and digging this thing and it looks like they've been extracting ceramics and this and that. Making that report to the land agency rather than just there's 32 sites we went there. There's x amount or there these 3 have been torn up but they're still ah recommended eligible to the national register and that kind of stuff right? so so I feel like. Rather than just having it be something that comes out in the report going through the different steps of letting them know this happened and maybe who knows maybe the agency will go out there. Maybe they do care. Maybe this is part of a pattern and your project area was just one corner of the forest but all across the forest. They've been seeing people rip sites and dig for arrowheads and ceramics and stuff. 12:26.40 Heather Yeah. 12:37.57 Bill White And so your report then tells them that 3 of those are part of the investigation like I feel like that's the true I don't know if we'll ever get to the point where we really have people who are police in the sites. But I do think that having folks be aware of this and that they should report it and stuff. 12:44.84 Heather Um I agree meaning. 12:51.45 Bill White Rather than just record it in the site form I think that's kind of the value of the the article that. 12:57.29 archpodnet Right? Yeah, no, it's a good point. Um, with that said, um, let's take a break and when we come back, We will continue with Crm Damage assessment.