00:02.62 archpodnet And welcome back to the crm archeology podcast and we have been talking about crm damage assessment and um, we have really been bouncing off an article recently published by Cambridge on that very thing here m. Damage assessment and you know they're not the only ones to be published by Cambridge. Um I have to I might I don't want ah brag. But so there I was in the Cambridge arc lot. Oh so. 00:28.10 Heather Ah course you have to get that in there. 00:36.63 Heather And we digress. 00:39.20 archpodnet Yeah, so so the article is actually very important now that I know it's Cambridge did ah so anyway you know our experiences on this way I see that we are talking about. You know that? maybe this isn't done enough in archeology. But what's the reality of it. That's kind of why I was into a form I'm like I'm like can you get me a form because I think the article gives the in a perfect world. Do this kind of stuff I think it's it's very good in terms of putting like the 6 steps together. That's very cool but um heather your point of. 00:55.79 Heather Um, will. 01:07.55 Heather Um I love. 01:12.56 archpodnet About like well yeah, but in reality you know, could you really have this happen in some sort of um economic you know manner I mean Economic not just in terms of money but in time and people you know that kind of stuff. Um I I can totally see that point. But. Man if we could just for me if I could just get a form first you know? yeah. 01:33.24 Heather Well yeah, change change starts with idealism right? I mean so I have no problem with that I think if that's what inspires us to do things better then you know that's what needs to happen. We need to kind of have this this. Maybe. 01:40.39 archpodnet Um, totally. 01:52.88 Heather Over the top reaction. But that's what gets people's attention to realize that we really do need to do this. So I I do think a across the board. Um, approach is what we should do in in archeology. Surprisingly I mean it's a science right? We don't have that. 02:10.19 archpodnet Yeah, right. 02:12.35 Heather We we don't we don't have across the board. Everybody records a site the same way we have in California we have these dpr form what we call dpr forms departments of parks and recreation forms. Um, and but people there's I haven't ever seen a primer. 02:20.90 archpodnet Um, yeah. 02:30.70 Heather Like a across a board primer that everybody's given this is how you fill out a form because people's idea of how each one of those site sections are answered is different and it shouldn't be that way so to me in order to ah assess damage of. 02:41.49 archpodnet Yep. 02:49.20 Heather Mean a lot of times you're assessing damage of a site that's never been recorded before that could be the case but in sites that have been recorded. You need to have a good baseline so that you know the difference so that you know what has been damaged um over time and so you know we need to start we do and I know that's not the premise of this whole. 02:51.58 archpodnet And. 03:00.43 archpodnet Um, totally I. 03:08.27 Heather Um, episode. But you know it's a good reminder that we should have a good process for site for recording sites and it should be across the board. Um I mean I do need see such just simple fix. 03:15.40 archpodnet Yeah, or at least a little closer. Yeah yeah, you know and I and I get bill's point to or earlier of like well you know don't you record this stuff. You know in your in your form since like we do. But I find that. I find for me personally I end up just recording it in kind of the daily notes like at the beginning I'm like well we're back at the site this summer and man you know in the northeastern section. There has been a lot of like environmental damage or whatever but it's just sort of in there. There's no standardized you know place where I put that in. 03:48.66 Bill White Um, yeah. 03:52.47 archpodnet And I know it and I remember it but I do think it gets forgotten in the big story. 03:59.65 Bill White Yeah, and the other question I have is because this is talking about stuff. That's um, you know sites that are on land administered by federal and state agencies and so they have that obligation. 04:06.93 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:12.99 Bill White I Mean actually it's their duty to take care of cultural resources that are on land that they administer and so that is the nexus that the authors are using by saying you know they're they're beholden to these laws. It's part of their you know, um mission for their organization and so if we report all this stuff. 04:15.23 Heather My name. 04:17.13 archpodnet Um. 04:24.77 Heather Um, if if. 04:31.38 Bill White Then you know though there here's the steps that you do here's what you know is supposed to happen here are the pathways towards doing the assessment right? But my question is have have you ever seen a ah rfp that's like you know the so-and-s so national forest has 82 damaged sites. 04:39.88 archpodnet Um, may. 04:50.80 Bill White And we need a cultural resources company to go out and do a damage assessment of all of them like are are they actually hiring folks or or you know you mentioned that? um ah the firefighters are learning how to record sites and to take that kind of stuff into account but are they do does cal fire have. 05:05.57 Heather Um, for Mike. 05:09.50 Bill White Archaeologists that are specifically damage assessment pros and they're putting out ah rfps to have companies go and do the damage so because because that's the other half right? If if we're if we're learning how to do what we're supposed to do on our end. Then what the the land administering agency. What are they supposed to do on their end even though they're the ones who are supposed to take care of the site. Are they hiring folks to do this across their entire area. Have you ever seen. It. 05:31.85 Heather I Think it's a combination. Well I know that there's people that specialize in fire archeology. Um, and there are you know I'm and I'm not an expert in this area by any stretch but you know I bet you it is a suite of approaches. 05:33.24 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:38.25 Bill White Um, yeah. 05:48.78 Heather So you have site stewardts you have people I was that in the beginning of my career um would do it's on a volunteer basis and state parks national parks have people that they have a job and we've even interviewed um somebody who has a program I think was in Arizona right? that so there are those. 06:03.50 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:07.75 Heather I Think it's got to be a combination because you know these areas are so large right? um that the State Parks National Parks staff handle. There's no way they could you know be watching every site so they need an army made up of different private Citizens volunteers and. 06:12.69 Bill White Um, yeah. 06:27.30 Heather You know staff that they have and maybe also hiring you know, um, private companies I have not been part of an effort like that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. 06:35.18 Bill White Yeah, yeah, because I mean that to me seems like it's the missing link that is kind of implied but not not necessarily stated in the I mean because also if you're writing an article. You can't just tell your your hiring agency. You know. Hey you have to do this right? We don't tell them what to do? you know the the federal administrators they're the ones who tell them what to do but I just kind of thought if you're reading this article that if this if this is so extensive isn't this a form of Crm. Um, work to do these damage assessments and to. 07:11.90 archpodnet Um. 07:12.54 Bill White You know, have ah rfps that are saying in the so and-s so national forest these many have been torn up by people camping on these sites these many have been torn up by looters these many have been eroded away and then you know because they also get around to the value right? because once again, they're they're thinking about this as far as Arpa violations and prosecuting folks. 07:17.25 Heather No. 07:32.22 Bill White But yeah, that's the other half you know of calculating the monetary damage. That's never easy and I've I have read some some articles and guidelines on you know how you how you're supposed to do that. It was always higher Ups who were doing that but to me that seems like the second half of. 07:44.86 archpodnet Um, me. 07:48.54 Bill White Once we have filled out our form and we have notified them that these many in our survey area have been looted then the next thing is like do they hire us to go on further to do the full damage assessment or are we just supposed to roll in there with recording the site like okay and then also here's a damage assessment off to the side because we use this. 07:55.19 Heather So snow. 07:58.36 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:05.66 Bill White Algorithm that was set up by so and so in this article and here's the damage that's been done. 08:10.94 Heather What does? ah so what does looking at the monetary damage Take what does it take it takes money right? It takes money it takes funds to do it where is that money coming from. Yeah, it's that that's the other thing again. It's an idealistic approach. 08:15.98 Bill White Um, yeah I Exactly I know oh okay, yeah yeah. 08:17.96 archpodnet Um, time. Yeah. 08:28.94 Heather Um, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be at least be put in place yet some assessments better than no assessment at all. Um, so having I I do I Always love having programmatic approaches to things and I think that. 08:35.45 Bill White Um, yeah. 08:36.94 archpodnet Ah, utterly that. 08:47.56 Heather You know that's what this article in overall is is looking to get um but I think I don't know I think it's a sad commentary on the fact that we don't have that right now we haven't had that right now and that's probably what this. Ah this article is saying. 08:59.32 archpodnet Um, yeah. 09:01.60 Bill White Um, yeah. 09:04.76 Heather But not only do we not have that for damage assessment. But we also don't have it just for assessment of sites to begin with. 09:10.10 archpodnet Right? I think that's important point you know and with that Let's take a break and I actually have an example that relates to that that we'll do on the flip side. We'll see in a minute. 09:11.14 Bill White Yeah, you're right? You're right.