00:00.48 archpodnet Hello and welcome back to the crmarcheology podcast episode 275 and we have been talking about damage assessment of archeological sites and I actually have an example of this from my international experience. Um, and by international experience I mean working in the maya area and it's funny that I recommend this to my students a lot you know to get experience in varied places because sometimes you can steal what you've learned in the 1 spot and bring it to the other spot and my example here is. For an ancient Maya site. 1 of the very first things we do is map all the looters trenches and it's a function of Maya sites being looted like all the time every time and so when you're working in a place where you just know that damage. In this case through looting is a hundred percent for sure I think that you go further forward in damage assessment because it's right in your lap from all the time and I know you know working in California or other places in the United States I know there's looting to but man. Yeah, haven't seen looting until you go to some place like a maya site if that makes sense so when when it's forced upon you, you do things about it. So what we do is we make a map of the looters trenches and there's even a lot of studies that will focus on the looters trenches themselves on sort of taking a very negative thing. 01:35.50 archpodnet And trying to get whatever is positive out of it so you will you will find reports that might have um, a chapter or definitely a section like on the looters trenches themselves. Okay, what can we study? ah from this damaged piece. So. Recording of the damage is actually at a really really fine. Scale. So I think we could take a note you know from what we do in the Maya world and maybe apply it here. Yeah again, you know having a form having a more. Um. 02:10.32 archpodnet Obvious open way of recording these things putting it more to the forefront and um, you know making conclusions about what it says about the archeological site in the first place I don't know what do you guys? think about that. 02:23.28 Bill White And yeah I mean I feel like that's a good idea I haven't been to places where it's like so prevalent right? that you could actually rely on that though because in places like forests and you know I don't know Blm land and stuff that are constantly. 02:31.22 archpodnet Yeah. 02:41.82 Bill White People are out there but there's not really any kind of supervision in stuff. It doesn't seem like it's it doesn't seem like it's widespread trenches like what you're talking about or you know constant holes excavated what you see sometimes is people diging. 02:49.26 archpodnet Right. 02:56.79 Bill White I Mean as a historical archaeologist. The thing that makes me most pissed off is when people dig privies on public land like go to an old mining town and then you know dig a huge hole or something like that there. That's you know, quite common but I've also seen where folks bus petrolyphs off the wall or cut them out and stuff or where. 03:02.11 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:12.96 archpodnet Um, yeah, and. 03:15.68 Bill White You know people are going way up into the hills in Arizona to these kind of sites that should be remote and you can see where they've gotten rid of the roads and trails to get to this by bulldozing them or cutting rolling boulders in the way and then people are using motorcycles or other stuff to get around it and then go up there and then like way back there. And some kind of like house block or whatever people are digging. You know some ah prehistoric site like that's the most common thing but you can also walk along and never see that you know the whole time you're there right? so. 03:35.64 archpodnet Um, right. 03:45.92 archpodnet Yes. 03:48.45 Bill White I Don't see where it's like systematic enough but I do think that if we were aware of your methods and stuff we could you know, add that into when we're recording the site rather than just you were saying noting you know lootar trench here or ah flood erosion there just in our notes and it not really going into the report or going anywhere I feel like. 04:00.49 archpodnet Who. 04:06.93 Bill White You know, maybe that's a step that we probably I don't know I guess maybe if there was a a dpr form like a continuation sheet. That's like you know, ah damage environmental damage right? or site damage assessment with a checklist and other stuff you know are there Luer holes is there erosion. 04:08.70 archpodnet Um, yeah, that's yeah. 04:18.55 archpodnet Yeah. 04:25.81 archpodnet Right? right. 04:26.17 Bill White From floods is there fire damage right? and then the crm um folks Oh there's a continuation sheet that means that I have to actually think about this in my mind when I'm out there and then fill out these different modules I think that could be the best We're going to hope for just like there was saying when it comes to. 04:38.89 archpodnet Yeah, no that right? No that is exactly what I want I want dpr continuation form. You know, seven eighty two E whatever it is that is exactly what I want where you can be just be like there'll be 2 categories. It'll be like environmental damage. 04:42.99 Bill White Having enough people to police all these sites. 04:50.44 Bill White But. 04:58.38 archpodnet Looting damage and then you you know you talk about the one or the other that's it see bill. You've nailed it that will make me happy and it is tough to make me happy there I would be happy. 05:08.63 Bill White Ah, but altruism to expect that we could try to get a form like that right? like do it I know new here to California. 05:10.44 archpodnet You know I know I know but but 1 can dream. Yeah, yeah, exactly oh oh my god of Heather what is it? What? what do you? want to say. 05:20.83 Heather Yeah I I was just going to say that you know again I'm harping on having one you know you? sometimes you're to have to deviate from from the norm but having 1 system where you you you do this and you do that I'm thinking in my head. 05:34.20 archpodnet Dead. 05:38.56 Heather That we constantly have clients that are trying to push us to go out and do a survey before we get the record search results back and in California for those that are listening that up from California California is held up. We talk about this a lot because of the turnaround time for a record search result because we can't just. 05:47.19 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:58.33 Heather Like other um states can just go on ah on a database and get the information right away we can't do that in California and so we're waiting for that sometimes a couple months and the clients are sitting here going. Okay like you're holding our whole our whole project up and so you know there's ah, a lot of things that go with that. But. Sometimes we're out in the we have to go and do the survey before we get the record search and yeah and that's tough because now you don't know what you're what you're going to find and you know I always put a caveat in the proposals that say an assumption that proposals that say that if you do want us to go out and do a survey first. 06:22.43 archpodnet Ah. 06:36.91 Heather And then the record search comes back and we get we find that there is a resource that was previous recorded. We may have to go back out there and you may have to pay for another survey, it's up to you I mean your p you're paying. You may have this expedite type fee roundabout because we have to go back out there a second time but there has. There. It just seems in our business for as long as it's been around. There isn't a there aren't very specific steps that are held to um and there isn't a consistent approach. There's general approaches but there isn't this consistent approach which is surprising to me for as long as we've been around um and you know some people may say well because every project's different right? You can't have something that you have to hold people's feet to the fire that we do exactly this. Because sometimes you have to deviate from it based on the site that you're looking at but I think that we could have something we could have a system that is a little bit more regulated a little and not regulated but a little bit more um, step specific like this. 07:31.13 archpodnet Oh. 07:43.21 archpodnet yeah yeah I think that's where the article shines I think is it's strong suit is it's like hey we're we've come up with 6 steps you know here you go? Let's do these steps and. 07:45.89 Heather Article is suggesting. 07:55.85 archpodnet I think it's just a hop skip and a jump between those steps and hey put it on the form here's just 6 you know like like ah just put on the list. Yeah. 08:00.74 Heather But there should be a definition. There should be definitions. We should have a vocabulary. There should be a so vocabulary I mean all these things because yes they have these steps those are great but there's so many steps in between and so many areas that could go wrong. 08:13.82 archpodnet Great, Ah sure. 08:19.12 Heather Um, yeah, um. 08:20.35 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, a little a little dose of um of reality. Yeah, that that is true. There are there are some some pitfalls in there for sure. But I do appreciate. You know the the outlining of of those things. Like you said earlier, you know it's a it's idealistic, but that's that's the first step in getting something concrete and real. 08:40.10 Bill White And we should see if we can reach out to some of the authors in this and see if they'll tell us more about these situations or like because I I mean I worked in Arizona for a lot of years and um, it is a unique place when you talk about the size of a state with just really. 08:41.36 Heather Yep. 08:49.22 archpodnet Right. 08:58.38 Bill White Very visible archeological sites I mean you can look at the the like um like construction sediments that have been moved when the sun's coming up and just see Ho Ho Com shirts in the stuff that's been plowed aside right? like. 09:14.00 archpodnet Ah, ah. 09:14.82 Bill White 1 of the when you're out in the desert the morning in the evening is an excellent time to see sights in Arizona because there's no grass anymore and you can just look straight across and see the you know, um temper shimmer in their plane wears and you could just see them from you know 40 or 50 ah meters away like you can see that stuff. So. 09:16.22 archpodnet Are. 09:25.88 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 09:31.57 archpodnet Totally. 09:34.75 Bill White So if you know Knuckleheads like me can see those sites then you know that people out there who want to find ceramics and stuff like that they're they're going to be attracted to that. They also know those clues too and so you know the folks are talking about. Ah, cases in Arizona. It also has a lot of federal land. So it has that kind of strong protection over a huge chunk of the state compared to you know a place like back East Virginia right that's been private property most of it for four or five hundred years and you can't really look and see sites and. 09:52.94 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:06.70 Bill White You know there's other kinds of protections as far as like trespassing and stuff like that on those I mean but also when there's private land. You can just dig freely and pay a guy $50 an hour and just dig for artifacts if you feel like in a place like you know where there's more private land. So I think we should get some of the authors see if we can get the authors on here see if we can. 10:11.71 archpodnet And um. 10:26.20 Bill White Talk about their unique situation in Arizona and you know how how they even came around to this and then give us some steps right? because if we could get a form or something like that. That's part of everyone's crm. Um, then I guess I mean it will cost more and it will take more time and everything. But at least it'll be on the mind of folks from the time they're a field tech until they. 10:33.51 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 10:42.86 archpodnet Right? Yeah and 1 more form would be no big deal. You know like that wouldn't be that bad. Yeah, you know what I'm saying no seriously. Yeah yeah, right right. 10:45.46 Bill White Move through that you just you always do it this way I Guess depends How much narrative stuff. Do they want? you know you get to write a novel there. 10:48.59 Heather Um, you know a form might my 2 things to sum it up a form must come with. Ah system for filling it out if got to have some kind of handbook that goes along with it so that it is consistently executed. Um, he and that this. 11:09.17 archpodnet You know I'm tired of your demands you demand that actual know how to deal it. No man just give me a form 5 just write some stuff. 11:24.28 Heather The second thing is um education and I people talk about this nothing new, right? Not education like we're educating archeologists. But we're educating the public. Um, the 1 thing when I was in graduate school somebody came and talked to us about um this these areas in Peru. 11:26.95 archpodnet Yeah, right. 11:43.00 Heather And ah, where they were looting their own heritage sites because they were impoverished and that was how they made money. Um and it really impress on me the importance of educating ah people. Non-archaeologists in why preservation of cultural resources is important. Um that is obviously something that's you know it's a little bit different than what we have here in California but education is important and we can't we cannot preserve without education and the more that you. Explain to people I mean we've talked I don't I I don't think we've talked about you know looters or think um as we haven't talked about it in a while but you know there are people on social media that that's what they do and and you know they're they're interested in it just like we are they come from the same place in their heart. That they're interested in history and in finding out more about history. So if we take that and we educate the public into why looting is not a good thing because in this in this same age here in America really, there's not a lot of people that are making a lot of money on looting. They're just doing it for their own private interests. 12:47.62 Bill White Ah. 12:55.54 Heather Private collections. So if you can get people's passion, personal passion and and educate them and get them involved in another way I think you could really reduce a significantly reduce looting in North America at least that's yeah. 12:57.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:10.54 Bill White Well I mean know that also seems very hopeful too to me because I actually don't think that Looterss come from anywhere close to the place in my heart. Why I'm doing any of this stuff I'm pretty solidly antiluter. So that's just me. It's like the same kind. It takes a whole can of. 13:22.20 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:22.36 Heather I I'm not I'm not saying loing. Yeah I mean. 13:27.32 Bill White You know a whole bag of trash and throws it on the side of the road I'm I'm against that kind of litter I'm against arming other people and I'm against ripping sites and I think that someone who's curious about artifacts should go to the library first before they just go to someone's heritage site and rip it. 13:33.80 archpodnet Yeah. 13:37.90 Heather Get but Ill I agree with you I Totally agree with you But what I'm saying is in the root of it. That's why we got to get people like that early. They're curious. They're not doing it to sell I'm not saying that looters are a good thing. But what I'm saying is there the impetus behind why they want to do it is because they're curious and and and they want to collect and for whatever that it is wrong. Looting is wrong. But if we were to get people in the beginning of that passion and educate Them. We would. Be a lot better off right. 14:13.83 archpodnet Yeah I could totally see that. Um, so with that there we go. We've gone all the way througherm damage assessment what we would think if there could be a form. Yeah and I thought I thought that was pretty cool and then as ah as a follow up. Maybe we should do another show on looting lay it like ah 30 seconds in yes, how they feel. But yeah, exactly, but but that was you know that's a yeah looting. 14:33.28 Bill White Try to get looters on the show and see what happens. Let's see if I can reach through the screen and choke every one of them you know? ah. 14:38.40 Heather That I don actually probably be 1 of our most entertaining. Yeah. 14:45.49 Bill White Ah, Bend over. Let me start excavating. Ah I'll teach you some. 14:49.30 archpodnet Oh my god see it all I mean it. It was a passionate argument. You know, like ah ah, 30 seconds in so um, with that I guess ah there you have it another episode of of ye old c r m archeology podcast episode 275 um 15:03.76 Heather Um I. 15:06.23 Bill White Ah. 15:07.36 archpodnet I have been your host Andrew Kingculla and goodbye. 15:12.76 Bill White Take it easy everybody. 15:14.46 Heather Are Goodbye I pocket unpack trying to get out of this hotel time. 15:20.42 archpodnet Heather doesn't care. Yeah, ah. 15:23.85 Bill White Ah, yeah, she's checked out. Ah. 15:24.47 archpodnet Yeah I left no time for rollout I don't know I don't know it's I'm yeah oh cool and that's right, Um, on on that note, um, here you guys I'll stop the I'll stop the recording there. We go. 15:30.41 Bill White Yeah, yeah, right? What do you got to go. 15:40.16 Bill White Um, god.