00:01.94 archpodnet Welcome back to the serum arc podcast episode 2 76 and we are talking about. You know how there's no one right way to do anything in this whole field. So and and there's definitely different ways that you can do stuff depending on your situation and Doug I know you had your hand raised last time. So ah. Let's hear your comment I'm also interested to hear your thoughts in you know your crm experience I think you worked a lot in like New Mexico and then also you know anything you've done over in Scotland. 00:27.80 Doug Well so I'll pivot because my my other one question where I had my hand raised was actually like what what did you do wrong Chris how how could you mess up a 1 by one now I understand of course Chris of course it makes sense how you messed it up. 00:41.72 archpodnet Ah, right right? yeah. 00:45.99 Doug Um, oh man I see I'd get really controversial and just be like ah you should go with a ah gridless site that that would have so solved all your problems except except actually probably not back. Probably not back in like 2008 but you should have just been like. 00:53.28 archpodnet Oh just I think that's called thing. 01:04.23 Doug Oh I refuse the one by 1 we're going gridless. No no, no units at all. Um, and that's actually like what what's it called? No no, um so like ah in in the netherlands they don't put out. They don't don't do grids. 01:05.58 archpodnet Yet it that this called looting isn't it Doug is not what that's called that's called looting looting. 01:13.86 Andrew So. 01:19.59 Heather That's so funny. Okay. 01:21.53 archpodnet What machine. 01:23.24 Doug Like this is so I did ah I did a whole project where we ah. So again, we ran into this sort of this issue of like what's the best way to do it. Um, it was it was ah we made videos tutorial videos on I had a bunch of different countries Spain italy. Ah, german language which was austrian but also we had german so we cover those slight weird differences in those languages they're basically the same language and we had the dutch as well. And um, yeah, we we had meetings and it was discussions about like oh you know is there a better way of doing it and actually like so for the 1 by 1 video. Um. 01:39.25 archpodnet Nothing. 01:58.38 Doug We do one with like a tape measure. Um, and then we actually do one where you could just use like a um, a planning frame like you put the a playing frame is 1 by 1 and you could just put drop it down and stick the nails in the corners and it like is so quick. 02:13.98 archpodnet Um, yeah. 02:15.98 Doug I don't think I'd ever go back to um, having to measure out um, was it one six one yeah like I have nightmare. Yeah oh yeah, ah yeah, nightmare is about trying doing all the calculations especially when you get like oh it's do 1 by 3 and you know. 02:21.81 archpodnet Yeah, 1.4 one yeah 02:24.94 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 02:34.80 Doug Something like that. No um in the netherlands they don't they do not. You don't need to do grids so they shoot in um, individual artifacts or um, like so some of it's a difference in um, you know archeology. It's so methods so like you know. 02:44.70 archpodnet E. 02:54.73 Doug For prehistoric in you know North America You pretty much are lithics and maybe some ceramics. Um, unless you're like in a cave or some other specialty stuff. But yeah, so like you're kind of doing that like grids to sort of create distribution maps. But even then like. 03:05.57 archpodnet Brent. 03:14.32 Doug Honestly, ah a 1 by 1 but with a ten centimeter spit is pretty much pointless anyways, like I'm pretty sure most of our most of our 1 by 1 work. It's arbitrary. Um, and. Does not answer most of the questions you'd be looking to um, answer with it I mean it kind of somewhat makes sense is like an arbitrary thing for maybe shuffle test pitting or something like that just because you know you need need to have some sort of standard and one meter by one meter makes sense. But I also you know people do 50 by 50. 03:48.52 archpodnet E. 03:50.25 Doug Ah, Centimeters. You know it's fairly arbitrary and makes no difference. But yeah, you can totally do um like literally they they were very shocked when they're like you have pegs and nails in your site The tripping hazards. And why would you do that like the dutch were just the very dutch so matter of fact of like well that's just stupid. 04:08.11 archpodnet Yeah, nice, nice tether. 04:13.70 Heather Okay, well speaking from somebody who comes from dutch ancestry um a little more diplomatic than that. but um but I do understand I understand I'm not now that all makes sense now that I'm Dutch. It makes alls anyway. Um. 04:19.66 Doug Oh no, no, you're not. It. 04:31.20 Heather I Think that there's a huge difference I mean obviously let let's just kind of go to the other spectrum greece where you were just that or egypt. You know they don't typically they're not doing these large grids with you know one by ones typically they they they work based on Discovery and. 04:36.10 archpodnet Yeah. 04:47.31 archpodnet And. 04:50.50 Heather I see that that is starting to change even in California where we are. You know we do do a lot of work based on discovery just these hard so grids that you don't move from um because you want to have the sample size and you know I I don't. Think that anybody does it that rigidly anymore from my experience but there's a complete difference there. There are reasons why we do what we do in America in and in California especially when it comes to prehistoric because we have no idea what we're looking for sometimes and. 05:09.17 archpodnet Yeah. 05:27.38 Heather What we find is so can be so small and easy to not find like you know if you don't do it right? So and and you need to have a sample size a representative sample size so you know I think there's reasons and I think this just goes to the theme of this of this podcast. 05:29.98 archpodnet Red. 05:46.87 Heather Is that there are reasons why conditions will motivate your work plan. It all has to be based on what you're dealing with you have to make a work plan. You can't be rigid but the same time you do have to if you have a work plan and it's in it. 05:54.86 archpodnet Yeah. 06:05.73 Heather Takes into account all the conditions and and the potential that you could be that of what you could find and what you're looking for then I think you do need to have some systematic approach so that the data in the end I mean the worst thing right? is we get back to the lab. We don't know what we're looking at so. 06:23.19 archpodnet All right. 06:25.67 Heather That's why you have you do have to have some you do have to be somewhat rigid but you have to also be flexible based on conditions and what you're dealing with so. 06:33.93 archpodnet Sure doug. 06:39.46 Doug Ah, so also like I think part of this is literally the last fifteen years or so um, like a grid measuring everything out makes a lot of sense if you go back? pre-digital and like. You actually still had to like measure out maps and a grid was incredibly helpful for that. Um, and accuracy was greatly improved on site plans. Um, but yeah these days you don't like technology is such that like even like the Gps units you can pretty much get like. Sub-cetimeter accuracy. Um, and just shoot in everything with some of those units so it made sense years ago and I I think some of that is like a holdback of like actually yeah, if if you still if you don't have the technology and you're still doing everything by hand. Yes, you definitely need a grid or. 07:16.35 archpodnet M. 07:33.68 Doug Yeah, yeah, you could kind of try to do it without but like your life would be made so much easier. Um, there's some questions in sort going in the chat and um, 1 question is like the bill had was like to with like the grid list. Do they even do square units. No now you don't like. Idea behind gridless is you don't actually have units like that I've actually seen um excavations that so in certain soils obviously with ah a grid you're you're like oh all the sides should be like you know it should be a square. It should be straight and then we've all been through that where like loose soils you start going down and then like. 08:04.83 archpodnet Oh. 08:11.76 Doug Your sides start coming down with you and they collapse. Um, but I've I've seen some excavations with Circle Circle units. Um, because you know a circle physics. Basically um, it keeps it the sides um from collapsing. 08:14.44 archpodnet Brent. 08:25.88 archpodnet So. 08:27.91 Doug And so like depend on your soil and how how far you're going down. Um I've seen for Health and safety reasons you do circle trenches. Um, and there's nothing ah nothing wrong with that and like so with this with a gridless site you strip back areas and because you. 08:34.50 archpodnet Yeah. 08:44.96 archpodnet Um. 08:45.36 Doug You're shooting in all the points. So if you're finding any features if you're finding any artifacts you don't like you can shoot in. You can make the most random they tend to end up being sort of squarish rectangle excavations anyways, because that's just easy but like you could do so Ah, Snoopy designed wrench like you could get creative like as you want like start doing um, ah you know, ah crop circle style trenches. There's nothing like there. There is no reason why you um, you need to have. 09:05.90 Bill White Um, ah yeah. 09:14.48 archpodnet The. 09:23.39 Doug Ah, straight trench. Um, for most most everything you're doing. Um, so yeah, you can have weekly lines and you just go and shoot it in with your Gps or I guess if you're a slightly older school total station. Um, and I guess if you really wanted to you could do a tape measure and playing table and all that sort of stuff. Um, it's a lot. Harder. But yeah man you you there is no reason why you actually need to have square trenches I see all hands going up. So I feel like people are going to yell at me. 09:46.30 Bill White Ah, now I I can pretty much fire. But what's crazy is I've already done this too before and I I absolutely get what you're saying The only time you're really using those Square units or rectangular units is when you. 09:47.92 Andrew Yeah, he you know what? you? yeah you know what? now you know what? um. 09:50.77 Heather Um I want to argue with that. Yeah. 10:01.91 archpodnet Leave me. 10:03.40 Bill White You know you think you want to get some kind of a volumetric sample or in case, if if you've stripped down to the level where the features are at you can't really run the back hole back over archeology. So if you've bisected all these different postals and features. But there's more down below then. 10:03.72 Heather Yes, thank you. It's much easier exactly. 10:05.12 Andrew Right. 10:13.34 Heather Yes, but. 10:21.50 Bill White Somehow you have to get down there and people dig in trenches or shovel probes or something like that straight down is the way that you see if there's more layers below that so I get it and actually it is way Better. It is way better to just shoot in features and stuff and dig them haphazardly or however you want you know because you're really going for the shape of the feature rather than. Some arbitrary square. Yeah. 10:40.88 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 10:41.16 Heather But. 10:42.88 Andrew Right? right? But there is there is a ah balance you know as we listen to Doug's European Postmodern Psycho babble on archeology. Um I I would say that there there is bounces I've seen. 10:46.10 Heather Um, yeah. 10:54.87 Doug Ah. 10:58.89 Andrew You can easily see how this would go too far the other way too. You know and and it's kind of like I think what Heather was saying before you just sort of have to match. Yeah what you're doing to the scene at hand. 11:00.20 Heather Yes. 11:09.49 Andrew Always thinking with a little bit of science though I don't like just the sort of free frough. We just shoot them in because we got modern technology to the subcetimeter I'm like yeah until all that stuff breaks like why don't We just go old school. We'll put some one by ones out thoughtfully placed. 11:13.55 Heather Yeah, but. 11:27.30 Andrew And we can dig them with old tools and that's completely fine and in my experience I much prefer that to like this week's ideology that will be foolish next week 11:39.43 Doug So I believe this episode started with there's no wrong way to do something as you guys have just told told me turned into me about doing gridless sight I feel like I've pushed the limit of our there's no wrong way to do something. 11:39.65 archpodnet Ah. 11:43.79 archpodnet Except yatway. 11:44.94 Andrew I know I know but it what place. 11:45.26 Bill White I. 11:46.28 Heather Um. 11:49.92 Heather Okay, okay, there's there's a caveat to that I mean as long as you again, go back to your strategy and whatever as long as you have a really good strategy. 11:56.86 Andrew Um, yeah. 11:58.95 Doug Oh. 12:07.29 archpodnet A. 12:08.66 Heather You know to start off with the research design to start off with and if you every action and decision in the field is based on that and and willingness to be flexible as you come across, you know with Discovery if you stick with that then you can be flexible. 12:17.64 Andrew My. 12:27.85 Heather But yeah, that's why research design is so important. 12:29.95 Andrew Right? That's what that's what I would say to you. 12:32.21 Doug So I'm um, a hundred percent with heather on this I but also say that unfortunately um I get get what you guys are saying about like volumetric and and sampling and stuff. But I honestly think that um in a lot of ways. 12:48.82 Doug People don't engage with that enough when thinking about it because you you have people who will be like yeah we' we're just're we're doing volume and you know it's it's a number of lithic per unit try to get a distribution map and stuff like that. But like one meter by ten centimeters doesn't really tell you a. Doesn't answer a lot of questions a lot of research questions you'll have um and actually to be honest, like how many site reports have you guys actually like we we always take these measurements occasionally, there's a distribution map in a um site report. But for the most part, a lot of those measurements of like you know this. This ah spit in this ah grid or you know this unit had 150 lithics or something like that we take a lot of that those measurements but they never actually make it into the report. Um I'd say is like there's there's ah, there's definitely um, a hold on to like. 13:38.68 archpodnet M. 13:40.60 Heather Final. 13:47.55 Doug Ah, one meter is like the standard when not necessarily that should be the standard depending on the questions you have. 13:50.18 Heather Yeah, yeah. 13:52.61 Andrew I disagree I think I think you need some sort of standard just to go with. It's okay I understand it's a bit arbitrary or whatever. But it's so much better to have some sort of unit standard you know and what's funny is. I'm playing the part of the more rigid guy in this and I'm usually not that guy you know in this world I'm very much into think of ah dealing with what happens in the moment. But I think we don't throw out the baby with a bathwater be like oh one by ones they're so less century. It's like no no, no, no, no, no, no, they work well and also you keep saying that like. Oh they don't answer the research questions. Sure they do you know I guess the only time they wouldn't answer is if you were so rigid that you only dug your square in your in your preconceived spot even though you could see that all the artifacts were fourteen meters away 14:28.76 Heather Get. 14:30.13 Doug Okay. 14:42.87 Andrew Yeah, but oh I must follow my Rigid Science guidelines then I understand well what questions are you talking about because all you keep saying is like well they just don't answer the questions like what see sure they do you put them in the right spot. 14:44.87 Doug Yeah, but what questions do they answer. 14:45.80 Heather Yeah I just. 14:53.15 Doug Okay, so like the only reason no the only reason no no, you're you're thinking, but you could put any size shape trench anywhere to answer that. Yeah, like you don't. 15:00.71 Andrew Yeah, yeah, but 1 by 1 ne's fine 15:02.10 Heather Yeah, well I think the one the 1 1 thing I think we also need to remember is that we're not just looking at what we are so specifically and I'm not gonna say this right? But we're guest, we're looking at our strategy but we're also. Trying to remember that there are things and technologies that are going to come. You know in the future that we're collecting information with that in mind too. So sometimes you're collecting information that you're not going to do anything with but we have it. 15:31.40 archpodnet Um. 15:38.75 Heather In case, you know in the future. Something can be done. So. 15:40.21 archpodnet Yeah, okay, okay, with that and the you know discussion in hand. Let's take this over to segment 3 and and wrap this up back in a minute.