00:00.00 archpodnet All right? Welcome back to Sirra Mark Podcast episode 2 76 and okay so from the last segment we you know we really get into this thing and yeah in the on the one hand Doug I totally understand what you're saying because with modern technology. With the ability to I mean literally submeter sub centimeter shoot in every single thing that you find in a relatively quick and easy way. Is there. A reason for you know, putting everything into grids in certain circumstances right? and and it's been brought up and I I do have to echo this too as a business owner you know sometimes. You you have to account for what you're doing and it can't just be. You know you really have to say I dug this much in volume and that was mentioned before as well. So if you've got those kinds of constraints you need. Ah you need an efficient way to measure that volume and maybe you're just going to do some photogrammetry on it on your big circular spiral hole and then you know you can get volume that way. But. In in ah the easier way is to just to do it in a grid. So um, one thing that was being mentioned over the break was ah how do we teach this so. How would you teach somebody bill. 00:55.58 Bill White Her. 01:02.80 Bill White Yeah I mean yeah, I'm really keenly interested in this aspect too because if I'm just following what folks are doing here. What I've been seeing folks do in the United States and I've got students who ah you know they're going to work all around the world. They're going to work wherever they can find jobs. I don't want them to show up to these european sites or these other sites and other places and this be like something where the crew chief goes off on them the same way they did on Krisp because they don't know this new technique. So you know how do you teach this. 01:32.28 Doug Ah, well there's a couple things to break down. Um, one is like this is a very dutch way of doing it. We still do a lot of grids in the yeah Uk. There's still a lot of grids in other places. Um and not like different countries are different things and they've been like that for. Like um, since archaeology became much more. Um, formulated and like I like how you guys are like describing this as like a loose sort of thing but like the dutch way of doing archeology is so prescriptive like they have a 200 page manual that is in version 6 or something or 7 of like. How you do archaeology and like it is incredibly prescriptive. Um, but they do it because it works and it's it's pretty easy to teach because so like you're basically I get where um. Where Chris was saying you know it's just really easy to like pull out. Oh I've dug so many squares and we went down the step and now I can quickly calculate it. But if you think about the time it takes to set up like a 1 by 1 and then someone to come over and be like that's a diamond because you didn't do it right? Um, and like like all the time for that like. 02:31.53 archpodnet Oh. 02:42.81 archpodnet Um. 02:46.12 Doug Setting up ah a one by wine. We. All do it. We're all pre pros at it. But you know it still takes a couple of minutes. Um, and you can literally shooting in with a Gps send 1 person around and like the time you're actually going to save more time of just shooting in um or yet. Photogrammetry like so a lot of a big new thing is just doing photogrammetry and in that software do a couple of shots of your your trench so you get a lot more out of it because you can get all your photos at that time too. You can get a 3 d model if you need to and then you can literally just pull out the volume. Um. Out of the thing. So like it's not quite simpler. It's just ah, going back to the the topic of this episode. It's a different way of doing it. Um, and in terms of teaching it like it's um. 03:29.96 archpodnet Me. 03:39.80 Doug I think I'm slightly confusing but imagine like instead of doing one by ones you had a trench that was ah one point six meters by 2.4. Um, it's still a square. It still works. You're still um, excavating to an area. Um, especially if like you know there's a lot of topsoil and you've used. Um, some sort of you know backhoe to just pull it back and you've basically scraped back to an area. So especially if you have like a lot of um overburden that you maybe needed to go down like half a meter or something like that. You just scrape down and then you go in there and um, you can also scrape back at. 04:18.45 Doug At layers. So I think ah, maybe we're saying the wrong things but earlier where people were talking about like you know going down. There's features below. Yeah, having a square that's like 1 by 1 or a square that's like 2 by 1.8 3 or something makes absolutely no. Dis. Ah difference unless you're doing all your calculations by hand at the end like you're not going to teach it any different you say you are excavating the areas that make sense. Um, and you stop like. So if you're digging features you stop? well. Let's be honest, it's it's Crm. So like you we we kind of say like you you put it in 1 by ones but your your site ends at the end of the site. So if you're doing a pipeline I know you have so many meters on each side that you're allowed to excavate and then as soon as you hit that line you stop like even if you found like the most amazing like um I know. Ah, ancestor of Pueblo um village and you've just hit the corner of it. But if it goes outside of your um excavation area for crm. Yeah, that's nice. You can maybe someone at university most likely pot hunters will get to it first can go back in like 80 years and dig it. But um. 05:31.21 Bill White Yeah, that's tragic. 05:33.34 Doug Yeah, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, like like we like so you have your your lying you have your project area laid out and you can sort of divide that up into a bunch of 1 by 1 squares or you could just make a giant trench or a bunch of smaller ones. Or round ones or as Chris said are spiral trench of fun like it doesn't um, teaching it. Not not gonna be any different than teaching one by ones except that you're not teaching someone. Um. 05:54.79 Heather Okay. 06:00.42 archpodnet No, no yeah. 06:06.57 Doug You know you need to put in your nails here and then you know use tube tape measures or 1 tape measure and string and that's the only difference is is just like make a line somewhere make a line that makes sense and like with a grinch we we expand it by like oh we need to expand this trench by like. 06:07.61 archpodnet Right? so. 06:14.60 archpodnet Yeah. 06:16.25 Heather Yeah. 06:16.44 Andrew But you. 06:24.23 Doug 1 you know another 1 by one square and then another 1 by one square or you could just be like hey guys let's just keep digging for until we yeah you know like three meters out or two and a half or it could be arbitrary. It doesn't it's where the archeology is. It's not necessarily. You need to fit that into a nice one by 1 06:39.20 archpodnet Um, okay, heather. 06:42.49 Doug I'll stop. 06:45.94 Heather Ah, yeah I I was gonna say that you know, um I think this this goes for for anything in life. You have to master the the easy first and so when you're teaching to answer. Bill's question when you're teaching people you they need to master something first in order to learn how to do this and when you're teaching you're looking for mastery of that skill while also teaching the spirit why you're doing it. 07:04.57 archpodnet Yeah, of. 07:16.55 Heather But you need to master the skill before you can start playing around because if you threw you throw people out doing snoopy units which I love that idea it's or you throw them out doing spiral units or whatever. That's that is for people who are at the level that they can play with those. 07:26.10 archpodnet Um. 07:35.86 Heather Like there's got to be some like Andrew said some science to it and the only way to teach people is to have the master on something. Ah that is certain and that is that one square unit is is 1 of the easiest ways to do that and then. Once they've mastered it then they can start I'm not saying playing like like you know like they're not thinking about it but then they can start um, moving off of that 1 by 1 but you got to start somewhere. 08:05.59 Andrew Yeah, yeah I think that is such a great point right? You you need that building block to go further Absolutely and it's It's so teachable. It gets you so much bang for the buck you know learning one by ones. Um I do I do really enjoy teaching I mean I would say one other thing about the really. 08:05.72 archpodnet But. 08:25.90 Andrew Wild you know spiral digs or whatever imagine reading that report like ten years later and you're like ah god they did this stupid spa. Ah you know because it you can't then compare it to other stuff in the area you know and I get it if you're following a feature or something that's different. That's different. You know we all understand that. But um, there is something to be said about the sort of old school way and that doesn't mean that you know I'm all of a sudden shouting you're doing. It's wrong, but on the flip side you know on the flip side. Um, if I'm not using the dutch manual I'm not doing it wrong either. You know what? I mean? yeah. 09:06.10 Bill White Well, um I think that if if stuff's changing man and if if you got a situation where the backho just trips down to the level that the cultural layer and then somebody's flying a drone and just shooting in every single thing and somehow magically you've got. Ah, you know a phone or a tablet or something that is seriously within a centimeter because I mean that's what we're talking about here I'm teaching people to get this thing within a centimeter or so of error and so if if if you got a thing that's doing all that and it's shooting down a laser dot or a spray paint. 09:31.94 Andrew Yeah, yeah, yeah. 09:40.29 Bill White Exact location of exactly where your stuff's supposed to be at and they tell you you know, bisect this thing or I want you to dig a Snoopy right here and it traces the snoopy with the led on the ground and you can do that then who are we to who are we to tell people to keep doing the square. 09:42.70 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 09:57.80 Bill White If now just all the robots are going to set everything up and and someone just teaches them how to dig? Whatever they've got right like 10 years from now imagine them reading our stuff and being like oh god they're still doing the 1900 squares boy boy right things each that's what's good. 09:57.81 Heather Yeah, yeah, that. 10:08.64 Heather But but there's got to be a reason. There's got to be a reason how many Sierra companies have all that technology. You know if you if you threw people students in and say you know it could be this. It could be that and you're not teaching. 10:09.22 Andrew Yeah, but but there is a baseline. Yeah. 10:22.47 Andrew Um, right. 10:23.64 Heather Them something that they can at least master I'm not saying that you're stuck with these one by ones but you got to teach them with something and if somebody's come up with a better one. A better way. Great. Let's do it but let's not do it for change sake just so that we can have something different. Let's it come up and thoughtfully come up with something. 10:37.13 archpodnet Me. 10:43.57 Heather If something comes up and they're and it's better then fine. Let's go with it. But I mean we're talking about all these technologies that a majority of COrM companies special especially small ones do not have so when you have that technology then you can work with that technology but we still have to be producing students. 11:02.11 archpodnet Um, yeah, all right doug. 11:02.37 Heather People going into the field that know how to do the basics. 11:04.64 Andrew Yes. 11:08.65 Doug Yeah, ah just one last thing is like okay I was being faceious with the whole snoopy like guys. It's physics. No no, no matter what you're not doing a spiral. It's basically going to be squares. It's going to be squares or rectangles. Um. 11:16.30 Heather We know that doug. Ah. 11:18.41 archpodnet We know it's windmails. 11:27.26 Doug Ah, but just it doesn't have to be measured exactly by one meter you could do centimeters I maybe I should rephrase this. It's not gridless. It's more precise archeology. It's instead of being stuck at at like a one meter scale 11:29.94 archpodnet Yeah. 11:44.33 Doug You're going down to Centimeter or Millimeter scale and so you're just being better. 11:44.79 archpodnet Yeah, okay, right I So I think what our big takeaways from this episode are there. 11:49.61 Andrew Good Good politician. 11:50.67 Bill White Ah, there we go I Love it and. 11:58.60 archpodnet Just like I said in the beginning there is no one right way to do things and really what you should let guide your your methodology is your research questions. What are your research questions. What are you trying to answer and what is the best absolute way to answer those research questions and also not just your research questions. But your. Your your design as well in your proposal who's funding this thing and how are they paying for it right? What are they expecting to see are they expecting you to see you know a hundred cubic meters of soil come out of the ground. Well you better be able to measure a hundred cubic meters you don't have to do that in squares. But you better better. Be able to measure that right and not go over that or do something with it. 12:32.37 Heather I have. 12:36.14 archpodnet So and then you know using the right tool for the right job. So I think this was a ah great discussion I thought maybe it would be. You know, maybe 1 segment where we talked about this but you know I should I never underestimate you guys I shouldn't we managed to keep it going so that's right, that's right? So if you're hearing this of course you are because you're listening to it. 12:45.85 Heather Um. 12:47.87 Andrew Power. Yes. 12:48.26 Heather Ah, and our capacity to be as. 12:55.98 archpodnet Comment on you know Facebook wherever you found it share this out in some of the groups out there and comment you you can also go to Arcpodnett.com/. Ah what is it serm archeology podcast I don't know go find this herera mark podcast on apodnet and then you can comment right on the episode. So I'm interested to hear other people's. Thoughts on this and with that we will see you guys next time. Okay, let me do the outtro. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see in the field goodbye. 13:21.53 Heather Type. 13:27.53 Heather Thanks for listening. 13:28.30 Bill White Goodbye. Okay. 13:29.19 Andrew See you guys next time after I finish reading this dutch field book. 13:36.84 Doug Ah, it's It's no longer a book. It's actually online now they've they've they've updated it. Yeah, the whole website. 13:40.35 Andrew Ah, it was finish reading this online article is online to um I've been doing it all wrong I've been in the darkness. 13:40.67 Heather You know we should put the link. Let's put the link in the notes. 13:42.24 Bill White Um, but Andrew so Twentieth century. 13:43.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll look to it. Okay, right? This this good buy is turned into opponents content all right. 13:47.73 Doug Yeah, yeah, now they used to have a manual they they literally used to have a physical manual but that's like version one. Yeah no, but yeah, I'll just say ah I need to say my goodbye which is just gonna be like. Stay Snoopy people. 14:03.96 Bill White I Thought it would be to scenes. 14:05.28 archpodnet Ah.