00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is Heather in Southern California and also Andrew in Southern California wow that's something right there. 00:04.65 Heather Hi everyone. 00:09.95 Andrew Hello Hello I am here. 00:11.44 Heather Is that your Halloween voice late. 00:15.20 Andrew It it totally what it totally is we we actually have this like Halloween little like hanging doll that hangs outside our house and what you do is you push its hat now it's not creepy or anything but you put but you push its hat. 00:24.77 archpodnet My god. 00:27.34 Heather That's not creepy. 00:32.21 Andrew And then it records it first. It goes happy Halloween and then it records whatever you say and says it back like 2 out octaves higher. It's like it's freaky and just so fun that you just can't stop like so ah. 00:41.50 archpodnet Ah, oh my god. 00:45.23 archpodnet Right? right. 00:48.16 Andrew Yeah, all the neighborhood kids did you know like come up and click the thing It's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah I recommend yeah. 00:52.79 archpodnet Oh my god okay well on on that note. Ah so as I mentioned in the introduction we're talking about looting today but this is your topic Andrew what brought up the topic and how do you want to introduce this. 01:02.44 Andrew Okay, so I think what brought up the topic you know I think it was an off the cuff topic from last time when we were discussing you know it just sort of deep in our discussions and and looting came up I think it was recording you know, looted sites and that kind of thing and I thought hey we should just sort of expand. 01:12.10 archpodnet Um. 01:22.43 Andrew And talk about our own experiences like coming upon looted sites or what is looting How do um, how does the general public see it. You know versus in archeology. How do we see it ethically um, have you ever been in a spot where ah. 01:27.96 archpodnet Ah. 01:39.86 Andrew People have said oh my God This site is looted and you come across it and it doesn't really seem that bad I I've I've been in every permutation of this you know so I'm just curious about your guys his experiences with this as well. 01:46.21 archpodnet Ah. 01:56.90 archpodnet Okay, yeah, well I can I think we should start with some maybe some definitions like like you kind of alluded to like like really what is looting right? because um, you know a lot of people think well it's it's my property I can dig up whatever I want right? and that. 02:00.72 Heather Yeah, yeah. 02:01.85 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 02:11.73 Andrew Um, right. 02:12.46 Heather That is true right. 02:12.72 archpodnet Kind of is true in a lot of places but in some places it's also not true. So you know I mean gather you can speak to California because I mean you can't drop a spoon in the ground in California without having a cultural resources assessment done even in your own backyard right? So like what's the what's the deal there. 02:17.38 Andrew Ah. 02:28.61 Heather Yeah, yeah I mean that's a bit of an exaggeration. But um I mean there are things that you can do it depends on where you're at you know you you can. There's work that you can do on your property and as long as it's not something that is. 02:30.18 Andrew Yeah. 02:46.61 Heather Um, you know, subject to agency purview then then you can do that I mean you you could come across something if you're planting a tree you know you could so and you know people do have a right to do with what they wish with their with their property. Ah. 02:52.24 archpodnet Yeah. 03:06.44 Heather You know songs are following the the law in in getting the permits that they need but not everything needs a permit. So. 03:08.82 archpodnet Um. 03:11.39 Andrew Right? Yeah I would say I mean in terms of you know your your own house because that's what people worry about So my students ask all the time you know it's like if you're if you're digging in your backyard and find something you're not really sure what that is that doesn't start. 03:11.47 archpodnet Right? right? yeah. 03:28.52 Andrew You know a section one zero six assessment and your house get taken away that you know that's what people are worried about so you know the short answer is ah for better or worse private property is sacrosanct you know in the United States and so in terms of when all these laws come in. That's much more like it. 03:33.42 archpodnet Right. 03:47.90 Andrew Federal lands and this kind of thing when in doubt yeah Heather would you agree. 03:50.29 Heather Um, yeah, well I would say that you know as far as section one. Oh 6 goes that that really is only applies with you know, federal lands federal funds. Um you know and so again, you know these things don't happen unless. 04:01.50 Andrew Um. 04:07.42 Heather Unless you're you're under some kind of jurisdiction from an agency. Yeah. 04:09.15 Andrew Right? Exactly so and. 04:11.35 archpodnet Yeah, and we can't forget too. The 1 thing that doesn't that none of this applies to is human remains right? because there's no statute of limitations on murder and and you don't know how old the human rains are that you found so you have to report them to the corner. Yeah. 04:19.22 Heather Of course, yes correct correct. Yeah. 04:26.96 Andrew Right? Yes, yes, don't call us call 9 1 1 Ah. 04:29.49 archpodnet Or the sheriff I guess or whoever. 04:33.37 Heather So. 04:33.47 archpodnet Yeah, exactly. 04:36.34 Andrew And and you know in seriousness like people wonder that you know, um what if I find a human skull in my backyard. What do I do? It's like dude call 9 one 1 and it'll go from there you know and again you won't lose your house. You know it. 04:43.31 archpodnet Yeah. Right. 04:50.15 Andrew In something that severe it would just it would become a murder investigation you know. 04:53.25 archpodnet Right? I mean you might if it's like your ex-wife from thirty years ago but aside from that you know you. 04:59.31 Andrew Get but did you have you met her have you met her I mean you know I was I was really angry. Okay I mean what wait wait or are we recording. We're recording. Ah damn it. Ah. 05:03.82 Heather Oh dear Andrew here come the letters. Ah. 05:07.44 archpodnet Ah, here come the letters I know. Ah, if you guys have any if anybody has anything that they want to write to us about Andrew's comment right to Dr Bill White at berkeley.edu 05:15.90 Heather Ah, ah. 05:17.18 Heather Set. 05:21.75 Andrew Ah, yeah, exactly ah god ah, and I love my my my wife of thirty years ago you know my wife back back when I was like 12 you know, ah we were we were we were young lovers anyway. 05:22.50 archpodnet Um. 05:24.87 archpodnet Ah, ah anyway, my. 05:33.22 archpodnet Ah, Bret right? exactly exactly except wow wow so that's that kind of covers. You know. 05:38.22 Heather Okay, here come more letters. Ah. 05:39.73 Andrew I Know and yeah, ah, anyhow yeah. 05:48.13 archpodnet Digging around in your neighborhood right? and like and if you live in a neighborhood I mean in your backyard but you know you you come across people you know I've done a lot of work in Nevada and you come across people out there that while they do own land. A lot of the land that they're ranching cattle on is leased right? So there's not technically theirs. 06:04.48 Andrew Um, right? yeah. 06:06.32 archpodnet They're borrowing it or they're they're renting it basically from the government and and usually ah you know with some sort of a heavy discount or some sort of a um farm subsidy or you know Ranch Subsidy or something like that. So but they still get pretty mad because they're just like you know we don't. Want you to find anything because we're afraid that this will get taken away and then we'll have to go somewhere Else. You know something like that and I'm like I mean I've told people before I'm like listen if we do find stuff that just means the pipeline probably can't come through. But if we don't find anything here come the bulldozers right? So if you don't want them coming Through. Don't loot your sites. 06:33.60 Andrew Right? Yeah, oh there's that Yeah yeah, I Love that example too. I Love that example because that takes it away from. 06:39.99 archpodnet Because otherwise we have nothing to date. No reason to call it significant. So yeah, it's frustrating. 06:52.62 Andrew Don't worry about your own home being like absconded you know by the federal government. You know that's and I I continue to bring that up just because I can tell based on what my students ask and this kind of thing that people are worried about that and I would want people to report things like this if they find it in their own backyard. You know with the knowledge that. 06:57.83 archpodnet Ah. 07:11.51 archpodnet Um, yeah, um. 07:12.36 Andrew Nothing's going to happen to their private property. So that example that you give is ah is great. You know because it shows. Okay, yes when Land is leased or borrowed for you know, cattle or whatever. It may be um, then it's a different situation. 07:22.15 archpodnet Yeah Andrew I'm curious. How does what the the conversation we're having right now compared to Belize say. 07:35.37 Andrew It's it's really different because in so in Belize looting is just rampant you know and that's nothing against Belize as a country like you if you go anywhere that has lots of um. 07:45.49 archpodnet Yeah, um. 07:52.25 Andrew You know, archeological um, really buildings and this kind of thing you know that you will have the looting that goes with it whether it be Belize whether it be Guatemala whether it be Egypt you know we can go on and on greece whatever you can just yeah, pick your poison but there there's a whole. 07:53.82 archpodnet Sure. 08:07.87 archpodnet Are. 08:11.74 Andrew Um, step by step process that you go through as an archeologist you just know stuff is going to be looted so you actually have forms where you're going to fill out Oh The looters trenches in this ah City look like this meaning that some of the pyramids will definitely have huge. Cutouts in them that were illegally dug you know by um, sometimes quite organized groups to steal and plunder antiquities. That's you know that's what it is so that is a whole different world and that's just sort of a constant problem. Um. 08:32.54 archpodnet Ah. 08:38.40 archpodnet Ah. 08:43.22 archpodnet Ah. 08:49.30 Andrew People think oh well don't they have like um like the equivalent of like the forest service don't they have the forest service that could that could watch for that. It's like no that would take tens of thousands of people you know and there's just so much vastness of jungle. 09:02.82 archpodnet Yeah, so. 09:07.83 Andrew That you just would never have the manpower to cover that. So even famous sites will get looted sometimes maybe not in the core world. The tourists are but yeah on the outskirts you know it's a it's sort of a never ending problem. 09:16.18 archpodnet Are. 09:25.90 Heather Yeah, there it is a common problem. It's not just police Obviously um and I know that there are groups that work and and try to you know work with the um, the population that are around some of these really important sites to educate them. 09:25.80 archpodnet Ah. 09:29.11 Andrew Um. 09:41.97 Heather Because a lot of times. The reason that they're they're looting is because they don't you know they they're trying to make a living and um, so but the problem is it's shortsighted right? because once you loot that that's it where they're trying to you know these groups are trying to educate the. 09:53.90 archpodnet Now. 09:59.84 Heather The population explained to them that this is a long range. You're shooting yourself in the foot so working with them teaching them How to um, use their heritage to make money and um I'm surprised. There's not more of that. 10:07.88 archpodnet Ah. 10:18.80 Heather Um, in some of these countries but you know a lot of it is I think because that you know that it's just the country doesn't have the money. There's other things to worry about then Peru has yes Peru has some good work. 10:19.29 Andrew Yet. 10:19.36 archpodnet Yeah. 10:28.65 Andrew Although you know there is that in in some of the countries and I will say ah that kind of stuff is getting better right? There is that yeah and and actually to bring up Belize again like a lot of the local projects do public outreach to like the local schools and stuff and there's. 10:36.75 Heather Yeah. 10:43.18 Heather Um. 10:44.39 Andrew Much more of that than there used to be so that is a nice thing I do see definite improvement in terms of that total cliche that happens to be true of education will bring a lot of this around. 10:56.99 archpodnet Yeah, before we go to break I just this always reminds me of a story that I read about a long time ago eugene de bois the he's probably english I don't like that he found Java man in the late 18 hundreds 1891 I think in Indonesia and he had a you know he had his little. 11:04.38 Andrew Yeah. 11:14.41 archpodnet English Hut or whatever he was where he didn't actually do any work and he had you know locals bringing him things and in order to incentivize them. He was paying them for any sort of artifacts or remains or anything like that that they found. They're not stupid. They learned pretty quickly that if they broke them in half. They'd get twice as much money. So. 11:32.80 Heather Oh she's. 11:34.87 archpodnet He didn't He wasn't wise to that right away though, but he would started saying like hey these are fresh breaks and they fit right together and he thought that they were just their excavation techniques were poor and then he eventually found out that they were in fact, breaking the artifacts in order to get more money. So yeah, that's obviously that was one ah hundred and forty. 11:46.32 Heather Bright Oh boy bright. 11:51.73 archpodnet Thirty years ago or so so yeah, but like you guys said yeah, that's definitely changing but also definitely still a problem in the world and it's more the poverty that's the problem not that I mean you got to do what you got to do to feed your family. So but all right, let's take a break come back on the other side and. 12:02.17 Heather Bright. 12:04.20 Andrew Um. 12:07.77 archpodnet I Know we've all probably got a few specific examples from at least this country and we can talk about that back in a minute. 12:11.23 Heather Um.