00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the serm archeology podcast episode two seventy seven and we're talking about looting and something I was thinking about as we're wrapping this up and we're going to you know, talk a little bit about you know what happens if you find looting and and things like that. But Andrew when you were talking about Belize earlier. It made me it made me wonder if. You know because we just had a Indiana Jones movie come out and in these kind of classic indiana jones areas you know like jungles stuff like that when a movie of that type comes out and and it's dealing with artifacts and things like that I wonder if there's an increase in looting in certain areas when. 00:20.28 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 00:28.16 Andrew Um. 00:36.50 archpodnet You know, maybe locals saw the movie or they see trailers or they see something and they're like hey you know what? it's not a half bad idea I'm going to go out and find some of this stuff. You know what I mean is there or not even locals. But other people coming in saying this is a good idea. 00:44.68 Andrew Yeah, no, um I think that's it I think there's a great question I'm sure there's some sort of like 10 percent bump for a little while it would be my guess but like you said it's not. 00:53.61 archpodnet Sure. 00:59.13 Andrew It's not the locals. It's going to be because again some of this stuff is big multinational like James Bond Business craziness you know so what's going to happen is that like the the super rich person who wants this stuff. 01:08.60 Heather Wow. 01:08.34 archpodnet Ah, sure. 01:14.58 Andrew Get in touch with the middleman who will then organize you know a crew of local farmers or something to loot us a certain site. Um I can't I can't tell to that find a grain you know like like increases or decreases in stuff I would say over the to my feeling. 01:18.73 archpodnet Ah. 01:32.78 Andrew Over the decades. It's gotten a little better meaning. There's been a little bit less looting just because I think worldwide we're just better interconnected things are better recorded. You know I mean with lidar and all this kind of stuff. Um, just more people. 01:44.80 archpodnet Ah, right. 01:48.70 Andrew It's harder to do something illicit and illegal like that than it used to be so I do see a decrease in it. It still happens a lot and sometimes it's just really sad, but but um. 01:52.50 archpodnet Any sure. 02:02.75 Andrew Moments of of sheer depression and looting are less than they used to be if that makes sense. Yeah. 02:05.49 archpodnet There you go heather. 02:06.91 Heather Yeah I don't you know? so it's I don't really come across looting hardly ever I mean like what I'm talking about earlier about you know construction personnel grabbing things. It's I wouldn't Necessari I don't really consider that looting is that a good thing. No, it's not but. 02:13.71 Andrew Yeah. 02:15.47 archpodnet Um. 02:26.69 Heather I Think it's um, yeah, it's innocent they they don't realize what they're doing. They just see something cool. It's everything's all mixed up. It's It's an old bottle. They don't consider that or even think about that as being an archeological you know an artifact and so um, but I haven't. 02:28.38 Andrew Right? It's like. 02:39.96 Andrew You know, right. 02:46.65 Heather Like I think once I came across I've seen a lot of sites once I've come across and seen a looted site and it and it was minimal. Um, ah unfortunately it was it was sub human remains you know, somebody going in and trying to get grave goods. But. 02:50.90 Andrew Um, ah. 02:54.95 archpodnet You. 02:56.84 Andrew Huh. 03:00.81 Andrew Yeah. 03:03.60 Heather And that other than that I haven't really um, experienced it I do I do think that um just out of ignorance. You know there there are several people don't realize that you know they come across. Um I know if anyone's gone to Bodie which is a ghost town right in California. 03:21.24 archpodnet Um, oh yeah. 03:22.34 Heather Um, people there's signs everywhere there. So it's pretty. You can't walk on that property and and and not realize that you can't take stuff. You know it's not that's not okay, but I think when people come across an old abandoned building like my grant. My father actually took me that was his thing was. 03:29.21 archpodnet Right? right. 03:31.48 Andrew Ah. 03:40.69 Heather As a kids he would we when we would come across abandoned buildings. He would take us inside and we and we would look at drove my mom crazy because she was like I'm just waiting for you know like in and I'm from Illinois so there's basements and some. 03:47.41 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 03:56.85 Heather You know us falling through that was ah her always her fears that we would fall through the the floorboards but you know people if you come across something cool. Nobody would think oh, it's an old gross abandoned building. They just grab it right? and so they don't think of it that way. 04:00.44 Andrew Sure. 04:00.46 archpodnet Ah. 04:08.60 Andrew Yeah, yes, yes. 04:13.79 Heather And now you're seeing what I think is more than Indiana Jones because that's very fantastical um is is some of this Youtube that you see you know I see a decent amount on social media where you have some people that are you know I think to myself wow with the amount of archaeologists we have out there I I wouldn't mind. 04:18.20 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 04:20.31 Andrew Ah. 04:33.52 Heather Taking this guy and and turning him for good because he does all this research right to find out where there could be deposits of old bottles and in mining towns and things like that and then he goes out and he digs it up and he has these pictures where he's like hundreds of bottles that he's found. 04:35.65 Andrew Yeah, it. 04:53.47 Heather And it's a pretty cool. You know it's a pretty good good collection that he that he has from himself and obviously that is looting. Um, but I don't think people see it that way. They they they exactly. 04:59.45 Andrew Yeah, totally I know see but that's the problem I've I've seen I've seen this kind of stuff you know on Youtube on social media. Whatever and it's basically like these guys. It's like this narcissistic thing where they like do this Youtube channel go look at me and they often. 05:16.32 Heather Know yeah and true. 05:18.73 Andrew Equate themselves to sort of an Indiana Jones persona or whatever and they're like I'm out here just like find and treasure and I hate that stuff because it makes the general public think it's okay, it sort of doubles down on. No this is just this is okay and I will say I've even. 05:29.50 Heather Um, exactly. 05:35.79 Andrew because because I have a Youtube presence to ah um, that some of these guys have gotten in touch with me once or twice and I did take the call and what I mean by that is I didn't go on their show or anything but I did try and do that thing that you're saying Heather I did try and kind of turn them to good like i. 05:38.54 Heather Are. 05:55.15 Andrew I talked with them like on Zoome or whatever and I'd be like you know what? you're doing isn't the most ethical thing ever. You know and it might even be illegal. Um, if you could you know you should curbate. You should do this way. You should work with these people like I tried tried you know to um, turn them to good. 05:55.32 Heather Ah. 06:11.56 archpodnet Good. 06:14.88 Andrew And they kind of they listen to what I've what I said but then several months later I saw them post again and they're just doing the same old stuff like they're they're doing that like you know I have um, have metal detector will travel kind of thing where they just detect and it's It's a bummer and they just don't. 06:20.60 Heather A. 06:28.16 archpodnet Will drop sure. 06:28.18 Heather Well. 06:34.74 Andrew They don't get the ethical consequences of what they're doing. Yeah. 06:38.29 Heather Well and that's a good point because this is that's ethical or ethically wrong. But in many cases, It's not legally wrong. Um, so. 06:45.10 archpodnet Yeah. 06:46.28 Andrew Yeah, just depends I mean some of these guys are really walking the fine line Sometimes it is you know they're they're just they're out there they on public lands or this kind of thing like you know going for it. Um, and it's just it it it continues that. 06:54.73 Heather Um, right. 07:03.74 Andrew Um, false narrative of finders keepers you know, which which always bothers me. 07:06.81 archpodnet Yeah. 07:08.44 Heather Um, well I think it's also really good exact. A really good reason Why in universities they really have to yeah I think it's a really good reason to have more field classes I mean there's people I did now I think about it like I didn't come across this guy's looting. 07:18.35 Andrew Yeah. 07:25.28 Heather But I was at this um restaurant and it was not a bar tent. It was like a fish restaurant. So the guy was kind of like shocking the oysters and everything and he's talking to the people sitting next to me and showing them pictures of I'm talking like some amazing artifacts. 07:34.46 Andrew Um. 07:40.13 archpodnet Ah. 07:42.89 Andrew Ah, yeah. 07:43.39 Heather That he found and he knew like this guy knows the land like you wouldn't believe I mean he knows it better than most archeologists if not any archeologists in the area and sometimes you know you have to work with these guys to get some information. Um. 07:48.45 Andrew Um, yep, Oh yeah. 07:51.18 archpodnet Ah. 08:03.14 Heather And that happens all the time with Museums I think people don't realize that that is definitely a common thing and it's not. It's not that the museums are are authorizing this at all but they want these collections at least to be able to take them out from somebody's bookcase and. 08:05.10 Andrew Yeah. 08:19.66 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:21.41 Andrew Um, yeah. 08:22.91 Heather You know? and and so it's not like they're encouraging them many times. The museums were able to get these collections years down the road um acquire them through some heavy negotiation. But it's certainly that kind and it's usually Hush Hosh because it's that kind of thing is you know, just encourages more. 08:30.54 Andrew Yeah. 08:37.24 Andrew I know and I I mean I'm I'm glad it ultimately ends up in a museum and not in someone's closet. But at the same time it it maintains that storyline where the looter gets to go Yeah and then the museum bought it. So I I just I'm doing. 08:41.87 Heather Looting. A. 08:50.41 Heather Yeah, yeah, 1 08:55.49 Andrew I'm doing God's work I I got the artifacts and now they're in the museum and it's like yeah with no context and nobody knows where the hell they were from. You know so. 09:02.69 archpodnet Know like. 09:03.00 Heather Right? And I think ah I think some people have this misconception that it's done for money and from my understanding and most times it's not. It's it's just bragging rights. Um, yeah, at least. 09:07.40 Andrew Um, yeah, it's not no yeah, that's my experience a hundred percent of the time. 09:19.58 Heather In California I'm sure that's different maybe in Belize and in other areas but here. Yeah. 09:22.90 Andrew Oh yeah, some. But even there yeah no, it's ah it's everything I think everyone kind of has that same mentality very similar. 09:34.92 archpodnet All right? Well I guess is there any advice we can provide for somebody who finds looting when they're out on a CM project and and definite clear evidence of let's throw vandalism in there too right? because looting is a form of vandalism. Don't mean to be honest, right? So um. 09:44.41 Andrew Oh man. Yeah yeah. 09:44.54 Heather And. 09:50.34 archpodnet Yeah, what I mean what do you do? if you find something like that I mean the first obvious answer I can come up with because working in Nevada a lot I mean like 90% of Nevada's blm land and the first thing you do is you call the blm um archeologist that is you know for that district that you're in. So. 10:03.54 Andrew Um, yeah. 10:05.77 archpodnet Um, you you have to have their contact info when you're out there Anyway, they approve your permit to go out there so you know you let them know and then they deal with it. But. 10:13.23 Heather Well I think that reporting it obviously is essential um more than just documenting documenting it on a site record is essential because you need to know where what the patterns are um and then I I do think that people because that's how you're going to stop it right? and. 10:17.16 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:22.37 archpodnet Ah. 10:23.38 Andrew Yes. 10:30.69 Andrew Um, who. 10:31.19 Heather People need to have a critical eye when they see the looting and try. It's not just oh, there's looting like I think people really need to think about it and say okay how could we potentially identify a period of time that this occurred is it new. Did this happen a while ago. 10:45.66 archpodnet Oh. 10:46.33 Andrew Um, yeah. 10:49.83 Heather Because if it is new and let's say you're doing a large survey and you're finding it over and over again, then this is something that could potentially be curbed ah in the future because you have a ah you have somebody doing it presently and so. Reporting is really important and then when you come across it documenting the manner in which it was done so that maybe there's some way of stopping it. Yes. 11:13.86 Andrew Yeah, and the exact right? and the exact location too because you know there's there's usually some corner or something some place where other people can't really see I've seen that a lot you know where where it happens and like we're saying you know if if something was looted eighty years ago 11:14.40 archpodnet Yeah. 11:22.28 archpodnet Um. 11:26.28 Heather Um. 11:32.96 Andrew It's hard to see sometimes where the previous looting was so document. That's why documenting it is so important too because you don't want to start your excavation and like hey guess what you just excavated a looters back dirt pile. You know so important. 11:37.12 Heather Um, yep. 11:43.33 Heather Right? I think and another another thing to to consider is that when we come across a site. So Let's say we're you know we go. We do a record search. We know we have sites there documenting and doing a continuation. Ah, sheet for a site is important. But even if it's exactly in the same shape as it was when it was recorded previously. You know not everybody's recording is as good as and others. But even if it matches exactly what you're seeing this puts a timestamp. 12:01.91 Andrew Yeah, totally. 12:03.12 archpodnet Yeah. 12:13.76 Andrew Um, yep. 12:13.78 archpodnet Oh. 12:20.91 Heather On when this or potentially if it gets looted down the road this puts a timestamp and when it was still in the same shape. So I think that I think a lot of times when people come across the site and they see that it it is. 12:29.41 Andrew Um, yeah. 12:31.60 archpodnet Yeah, ah. 12:38.40 Heather Very similar if not exactly in the same shape than what they're reading in the site record they don't do a continuation sheet and I think that that is that's something that is an oversight it doesn't take too long to do it. It's a few sentences, especially if nothing's changed. So. 12:44.32 Andrew Um, right. 12:44.98 archpodnet Um, ah peace. Yeah. 12:49.70 Andrew Um, yeah, yeah, it's really worthwhile in the future. You know, 20 years on like that's the stuff you want to see. 12:50.22 archpodnet Yeah, Okay, oh yeah, yeah for sure. 13:00.60 Heather Um, and then I think the other thing is it's not just about Let's if you come across looting just documenting the looting and just you know shedding a tear and moving on I mean it does need to be for it. Does need to be turned in. 13:13.72 Andrew Right? Yeah yeah. 13:15.22 archpodnet Ah. 13:15.81 Heather Yeah I mean it depending on what kind of land it is. 13:18.63 archpodnet Right? Okay, all right anything else to add on this before we go. 13:25.76 Andrew Now I Guess just that. Um, for those you listening who are archeologists and work in this World. You know dealing with looters is intrinsically dicey and a pain you'll you will have extremes on all sides you will have and the archeology Community. You will have people who. Think that you if you ever even talk to a looter. You're a horrible academic and need to you turn in your master's degree. Um, and then on the flip side. Maybe you have people who are a little too easy going. But overall I find as in so many things you know you do want to just sort of like make initial contact and just to kind of. See what's going on but then don't um, don't divulge anything to them because sometimes they're really wily and sneaky to try and get you to tell them where stuff is or to um to tell them how old what they have is I've had people come up to me very sneaky and be like so how old do you think this is but. 14:07.64 Heather Um, very true. Yes, um. 14:18.67 Andrew Luckily for me my my luder radar is pretty good and I just talk in circles you know and I don't say anything while on the inside I'm dying because I'll be like oh my God That's a clovis point you know or whatever but I would say for for people in the field. Be really, you know, um, have your. 14:25.14 archpodnet Right. 14:37.93 Andrew Guard up if you're dealing with people and you'll feel it because they'll ask you questions that are like way too knowledgeable. You know that's not like the same old general public Interest they're like knowledgeable so try not to divulge don't accidentally divulge stuff because if you're. 14:43.14 archpodnet Right. 14:50.71 archpodnet Ah. 14:55.44 Andrew Lazy You will. 14:57.61 Heather Yeah, and I I would say 1 1 more thing um is that be approachable, not approachable by looters but be approachable, especially if you're somebody who is forward facing with a company. You're a monitor you're in the fields a lot make sure that you are. 15:01.31 Andrew Yeah. 15:08.68 Andrew Totally. 15:15.33 Heather Um, communicating with the people that are non-archaeologists. Um, that's why we do weep trainings workers Environmental Awareness program trainings. Um, for those that don't know what that means? um and the more that you build relationships. Um. 15:17.86 Andrew Um, yeah. 15:31.95 Heather And and the more that you talk to people I mean you're standing out there doing nothing nothing. Anyway, it's guys at Lisa I gives you something to do but creating relationships because a lot of people. It's just ignorance. They don't realize it's not wrong or that or that it is wrong and then yeah I think that is. 15:37.73 Andrew Ah. 15:43.49 Andrew Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:51.53 Heather Right? there. That's where you can make a difference in your own world is is just communicating and being approachable. Not being this, you know like I I can't wait to shut down your project you know type of our monitor. So. 15:51.70 Andrew Totally. Yeah, yeah. 16:03.36 archpodnet Yeah. 16:03.63 Andrew Yes, that yeah or or or seeing Yeah, you know the the one construction worker who you know goes Oh This bottle's pretty cool and. And somehow lamb basting him or something because I've seen that form of stuff too. You're right? That's so important the approachability thing that sort of you know? Um, ah trust but verify. 16:28.28 archpodnet Ah, indeed all right guys. Well this has been a great topic and you know I'm sure we've all got some bit of experience with this. So yeah, if you got any comments please make them on the show notes for this ah episode on arcpodnet.com 16:35.37 Andrew Yeah. 16:45.40 archpodnet And wherever you see this and feel free to share it out as well because you know we can't really share it into all the different groups on the socials because well that looks self-serving and people don't like that so please share this with your colleagues and don't expect us to do it because we can't all right with that we will. You guys next time. Okay, leaving rolling for the outro here we go thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to listeners in the field. Wow that's not right? yeah. 17:19.84 Andrew Yeah, what happened dude, you've only been doing this 277 times ah 17:20.90 archpodnet I don't know let me see it again. I'm reading it even it's been a oh my god I drove 7 hours today in a £35000 house give me a break. Okay here we go I know okay there we go. 17:30.98 Andrew I'm tired of your excuses unless it was an actual house that would be pretty cool. 17:38.10 archpodnet Thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 17:42.28 Heather Thanks for listening everyone. 17:44.40 Andrew See you guys next time.