00:00.15 Andrew Kinkella I was just good. Yeah, go for it. Oh I just wanted to um say yeah Chris for you and and bill you guys can yeah jump in with questions from Renee I'll try and ah. 00:02.10 archpodnet Edited out. What do you want but go ahead. 00:09.12 archpodnet Okay, welcome back to the serm archeology podcast episode 84 and we're talking to renee collins and you know you talked I mean you started off by saying you know Belize is kind of your thing. You know you want to go back. There. You're always thinking about Belize. You're always doing you know doing stuff like that. I talked to a number of serum archaeologists and we all have probably where this wasn't your first choice right now sometimes right out of an undergrad. It is your first choice right? You don't even know what else to do. But if you're coming out of a master's degree and you worked and you research something else because that's what you do in a master's degree. A lot of times you did that because that was. Your passion you you found it. You did or it became your passion. 1 of the 2 so I'm curious. Do you I mean you're you're in crm now you're at a you know you're at a pretty decent company in a place of the country where there's there's a lot of work and you're managing projects I mean this sounds like a career. You know what I mean and I'm just wondering. Do you have a. Plan where you're you're looking at these steps to maybe get you in a certain direction. Um, or are you kind of going with the flow for a little while which is totally fine. People do one of the other things. Nobody yeah mean you don't have to have a step by step. This is what I'm going to do but I'm just curious as to. If that is if your end goal is to eventually make it back to maybe Belize maybe teaching or something like that. Um, and and what your what your path is to get there not to put you on the spot where you see yourself in 5 years ah 01:34.96 Renee What a cheap question. 01:35.70 Bill White I. 01:38.25 archpodnet Ah, right? ah. 01:38.70 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 01:41.36 Renee Ah, um I don't really have a plan per se I'm just like go with the flow type of individual. Um I'm happy where I'm at right now. Um I'm always looking for the future. But as of right now. So. 01:45.49 archpodnet Me. 01:56.62 archpodnet Um, yeah. 02:00.34 Renee Let's ah, let's make it a little dark right now I in 2021 I got diagnosed with Ms. so it was like a crappy situation and I'm like oh gosh how am I going to do field stuff like what am I going to do type of thing. But in reality i'm. 02:03.91 archpodnet No shit. Okay. 02:17.94 archpodnet You? okay. 02:18.14 Renee Don't let it bother me I got Diagnos diagnosed I got treated you know I'm just going with the flow and to be honest with you I don't know how my body's going to be like if I get as to go tolizes or just go back to bles like that. Environment's totally different than like an arid environment. So I don't know my reaction time like. 02:35.87 archpodnet M. 02:37.83 Renee What my body is going to do. But then I think back to Andrew's advisor Wendy Ashmore and she had MS and I met her and that leads she's kick as like she you know she went down to bleeze and like I met her at the essays in 2012 and 02:41.83 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 02:48.91 Andrew Kinkella Um. 02:54.61 Renee She she didn't let that disease bother her like she would just walk around gay like nothing's wrong like I'm like oh I would be like her Hell you? um so I mean I always look at like show go the federal row or. 02:59.51 archpodnet Right. 03:07.49 Renee You know should I go back to school I I mean Andrewa had this conversation not not too long ago about like did I make the right choice do I need to go like get a ph d like because that was my end goal is to get a ph d like when I was 16 I wrote down like my goal is to have a ph d in archeology like what 16 year old does that like. 03:08.36 archpodnet Um. 03:10.42 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I. 03:25.96 Renee Even know what a ph e is um as you know the tie the time in you know the US right are just the world about like going to school and actually getting a job in academia is human and far between and teaching is just like what I want to do. But it's really hard to get into that. 03:26.52 archpodnet Brett. 03:45.30 archpodnet Near here. 03:45.78 Renee You know sector I just I don't know I'm like in a crossroads like I'm always in a crossards I'm like did I even make the right choice but here we are like until I decide to you know, go back to bles permanently and like you know Marry a doctor and. 03:57.93 archpodnet Yeah. 03:59.59 Andrew Kinkella Um, go back permanently. Yeah, yeah, um. 04:03.23 Renee Permanently and just like marry a doctor and like have disposable income I'm just kidding I am not a gold digger um, um, but you know I'm I'm happy where I'm at right now with alpine they as a Crm firm I'm a pitch them I have. 04:06.86 archpodnet What right. Okay. 04:20.54 Renee They're so supportive I've never worked with a company that's been so supportive in my life in general like whether it be you know like retail or you know one of those jobs. Um, they care and that's that's the big thing for me. 04:35.89 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 04:36.25 archpodnet Yeah I want to know you you maybe think it's something Renee because ah, and bill actually put this in our little side chat on the ah podcast here you know I i've. Played around with the idea of I've actually kind of wanted to teach for a long time I find myself that I like being in that sort of environment. You know, just just I don't know I just like that. But I have a master's degree I don't have a ph d and I want to know from Bill and Andrew is there. Talk now. First off I know there's places in the country where you can do some form of teaching with a master's degree but generally it's accepted knowledge that you need a ph d to be a college professor if that's the level you want to teach at is there talk in that world about you know with with a lot more people talking about not going to college at all. Is there or college is talking about maybe walking that back a little bit for for a level of college professor for master's degrees. 05:26.99 Andrew Kinkella Ah, all right? Yeah bill you go. 05:27.70 Bill White no no, no no they're not so you know ph ds are rare in the actual world but they're abundant ubiquitous and not uncommon in academia and so I don't see a world in the United States where 05:31.64 Renee Um, the fit it. 05:42.10 archpodnet Sure. 05:47.35 Bill White There's going to be a time where we don't have enough Ph Ds to teach so you know if they can get a Ph D Why not right? It's just like crm. Um, if they can get someone with a master's why not. And um, you know I Just think that I don't really see there being ah a pathway for a lot of people who don't have a really unique skill right? like. So. 05:52.51 archpodnet Um. 06:06.84 Bill White Um, some folks are you know, excellent artists and so they can be hired on as instructors and they have like no degree right? and some people are you know? Amazing Ah, ah, business people or or folks who have made influential gains elsewhere and they teach and they don't have a Ph d. 06:16.33 archpodnet Um. 06:24.95 Bill White But for everyday folks who want to teach I mean I think that like ph d is is just kind of the way that it goes in the United States and it's very very hard to have a job with benefits something that's going to beat alpine. It's hard to get something that's going to beat alpine if you don't have a ph d. 06:39.35 archpodnet Yeah, right? Yeah I was thinking that I mean you can work yourself into a 6 figure salary in someerum firms I mean depending on where it's at and how big it is. You know what? I mean be hard to. 06:43.97 Andrew Kinkella Right? ah. 06:49.69 Bill White Yeah, you can you can work yourself to death in academia teaching like 19 different adjunct classes and all this other stuff for less than minimum wage and you know really work in 10 hour 12 hour days at multiple universities just trying to scrap together some kind of a. 06:52.60 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 07:08.49 Bill White You know teaching career and Academia doesn't seem to mind whatsoever How many adjuncts there are or how horrible their conditions are because there's always someone who will do that job just so that they can say they're a professor and. 07:21.25 Andrew Kinkella Right? Um, although on the flip side'd like I I my short answer is I totally agree with Bill like that's that's that world except what I would say like for somebody like you and a you know you you have a master's in hand, you have a ton of experience. Um, you could teach part time and. 07:22.00 archpodnet Ah. 07:33.93 archpodnet Yeah. 07:39.25 Andrew Kinkella At a community college you could teach like masters is meets minimum qualls at a community college so we have like part timers who have only a masters you know so for for you or for Chris you know too. You can do that kind of stuff and ultimately we have to think about the big picture which is quality of life. So. 07:50.16 archpodnet Me. 07:57.40 Andrew Kinkella Well what everything bill said is like correct if if you're all into being in an R one University and you know researching and living the college professor dream. Whatever that is yeah, no way like that's like Ph D Only that whole world right? But you stay and bill wrote this in the um in the comments in here. 08:09.90 archpodnet Yeah. 08:15.84 Andrew Kinkella You stay at alpine. But then you're like oh yeah and then on Wednesday nights I teach intro to archeology at the local community college like I think the future really for all of us is um, side hustles like that and then ultimately that might bring you the joy you want because like for. Like you were for actually both for Renee and for Chris I could see both you guys doing that you know like Wednesday nights I go over and I teach intro archeology because both of you would be like fantastic in front of the class. You know all that stuff like you could those gigs are out there. So I think the future is about thinking of it like that don't put your day job kind of thing. But. 08:37.24 archpodnet And. 08:53.57 Andrew Kinkella Expand those little side hustle things and that might bring you the joy you crave you know. 08:54.61 archpodnet Yeah. 08:56.80 Bill White Well in in all fairness too with the situation that's going on I don't know if you've been paying attention but there's several articles that have been coming out about how there's going to be a shortage of archeologists I mean folks who are working at Crm know that there's not enough folks who are coming out that are ready to work in Crm. 09:07.91 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 09:13.94 Bill White And so there are increasing conversations at the essay and other organizations about how can we increase the quality of the folks who are graduating but also get more individuals to finish college and I I'm you know there's I think that it really has to be. Ah, collaboration between crm government agencies because government agencies are the ones who set the bar on you know what kind of education needs to happen what kind of ah you know ways folks have to report at the ship o and other things like you know when I worked in Arizona you have to have a ph d to have an excavation permit in the state of Arizona and so. 09:40.49 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 09:51.14 Bill White Those organizations if there's no one who meets those criteria then you can see how everything just kind of grinds to a halt and then of course universities. Um, they need to figure out some kind of pathway and I think that you know I think that there's there could be it depends on the institution. It could be a dangerous precedent right? Where if you just have. Folks from the community teaching for even less than an adjunct just 1 class at a time you don't have to provide benefits or anything and you can just really dog folks who really want to help others and and pretty much build your entire program around. You know folks who are teaching 1 class at a time and then you don't need any professors right? So I can see how. 10:23.22 Andrew Kinkella Bright. 10:29.52 Bill White Some institutions that glimmer in their eyes shining extra bright when you hear what you just said Andrew like yes finally we've gotten it now we don't need anyone. You know we can have people who are just off the streets and now we can just have them teach and shift everything to night school and then we no longer even need buildings right? Like we don't need anything. 10:31.11 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 10:34.40 Renee Um. 10:38.97 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, but yeah, yeah, look. 10:47.29 Bill White So you know there's there's that but there's also the fact that we've got a wealth of folks who have experience and can teach in ways that professors can't and so adding some folks into universities to teach these certification classes to teach classes that are not intro to archeology. But actually you know, um. 10:59.25 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 11:06.15 Bill White You know my my an excavation techniques something that's an actual like focused class that when you take it your assignments actually show that you have skills and ability. You know identifying these certain kinds of ceramics doing yeah gis these kind of things that really will give people true workplace skills. Can be taught by people who are absolute experts that universities a lot of times they don't have those folks so I do see a pathway where not teaching archeology 100 let the professors teach that huge one teach the skills and values based ones you know archeology Communications Chris is a perfect. 11:29.16 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 11:42.23 Andrew Kinkella Is. 11:44.85 Bill White You know person to talk about that to talk about presentations podcasting blogging writing publishing and networking all of this stuff. There's not going to be a professor who has the skills that Chris does right? So those are like the perfect avenues for you to have your own niche. 11:55.93 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 12:01.14 Bill White Um, thing that then you make sure that agencies and crm companies know you're teaching this that it's super valuable in any person who finishes this class. They've got this skill they learn from the best. 12:11.50 Andrew Kinkella Right? Rene do you have something you would like. Yeah. 12:13.36 Renee I do and bill I agree with you completely of what you're saying, um we do I mean there is a massive shortage of like cn archeologists we are having a hard time finding people. But in reality though like in the academic roomm I'm not shooting at you Andrewa I'm just saying it's. 12:31.21 Andrew Kinkella What you're backs stepping me on this podcast. Okay. 12:32.82 Renee I'm sorry um, but like at the academic level it you know professors that are in like you know these r one schools they kind of do a disservice to the students where they're just teaching mindlessly like classes that don't do anything for them and there's no reality to it and. 12:33.16 Bill White I. 12:49.70 Andrew Kinkella Yes, yeah. 12:52.10 Renee And it that boggles my mind because you have these students that come out and they they have no nothing. They don't think about shippo or section one zero six or what Crm really is because these professors don't do it. They just teach academic and that there needs to be um, like a class or a couple courses where it explains what section 1 of 6 is what. 13:02.73 Andrew Kinkella Couplely. 13:12.00 Renee What what tribal liaisons are coordinators or what tribes we work with um and all those communication factors. What to expect like my goal is to have a class called the realities of archaeology and it really goes into the private sector not just academic what to expect in the real world. 13:24.27 archpodnet F. 13:25.49 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, that's I think that's great. You didn't backststep me at all. Um I actually agree with you 100% um and and I've been pushing some of that in my in my own classes. So no good for you and I I can't agree more. 13:30.50 Renee And if. 13:38.72 archpodnet Nice all right. 13:39.25 Renee Yeah I will say Andrew like if it wasn't for you and you're like more more park colleges really like the premier college to like take all these classes. It's like oh your excavation class. This is what archeology is welcome to what we do and. Like I've seen so many students come through um with these classes. It's like oh they're not going to make it like this is they don't want to do it like it's sad when you go to a field school in like the sayize and I've seen it where they're supposed to be there for a month and they can't hack it for two weeks and they leave and they're like oh I just got my b a I don't know what to do now. 14:09.55 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, right? or. 14:15.43 Renee And that sucks and that's the disservice that Academia does to these students this that too. 14:17.58 Andrew Kinkella It does or they can be grad students and that happens it's like how could you not know this by now. 14:20.80 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:23.69 archpodnet Okay, well let's take a break and while bill works on my honorary ph d from Berkeley we will. 14:33.55 Andrew Kinkella Ah, hey I want one of those 2 Ah can you throw me on the list. Yeah. 14:34.67 archpodnet I know I know will all right? Well well while bill works on that we'll take a break and come back for segment 3 back in a minute. 14:35.11 Bill White Um I I allowed you to the list. 14:37.12 Renee Um, me.