00:00.14 archpodnet Welcome back to the crm archeology podcast and the experiment is over I was muted for the last part of segment one and Andrew is muted for the first part so Doug what were the results which one of us is the bigger tool. 00:16.11 Doug So well. Okay, so we weren't measuring that. That's that that is almost as hard to measure as like as what we're doing here but um, so like. 00:19.73 Andrew Kinkella Um. 00:24.50 Andrew Kinkella I think I think I'm a passionate tool is that what I is that what I get yeah. 00:28.12 archpodnet Dice. Nice. 00:31.90 Doug What? Well the thing is is you might be a tool because you're passionate. Yeah, so yeah, it's hard. It's hard to it's hard to separate those 2 Um, yeah, so but fun I'll tell you guys. 00:36.48 Andrew Kinkella Um, odd's true. 00:39.13 archpodnet Ah, all right. 00:44.81 Andrew Kinkella Um, who. 00:50.36 Doug You guys did basically what all the architects did which is all right? So um, I'm sorry the questions were slightly a bit I could see we're a bit leading but um, yeah Hackin is a psychological state and it cannot be objectively measured. You can't you can't measure it you. 01:05.21 Andrew Kinkella Right. 01:09.50 archpodnet Um. 01:10.22 Doug But both of you guys. Both said you need to have passion passion and you both believe that it could be measurable and that you could suck it out on people and this is this is the the the fun part of where the study did a much like ah wider range you guys. 01:20.37 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 01:29.85 Doug There was a few things you named in common. But there was actually you guys had like your ideas of like what wasn't um what how you demonstrate passion or how someone could were actually fairly different. Um, so like Chris talking about like oh yeah, you know there's an. 01:50.35 Doug Ah, if you guys probably listened to each other you probably would have sort of thought oh yeah, definitely um to each other's what you were saying but it's the part where the first thing that came to your mind weren't quite the same thing so Chris was like yeah you know they volunteer for extra work or do they volunteer for stuff or um, you know you. 01:56.30 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 02:01.90 archpodnet Ah. 02:04.78 Andrew Kinkella Right? a. 02:09.19 Doug Both have described what you both described. It were the same was you could see it in their eyes or like you had both described like how you could use hell like like like you can feel it. But um, ah you just you talk about different things. So Chris was like yeah you know are they are they volunteering practice their work are they coming in late. Are they. 02:23.68 archpodnet Ah. 02:29.23 Doug Or no that coming in late are they coming in early. Are they leaving late like that and Andrew talked about like um at you know at service university slightly different thing are these people going to grow it out. Are they going to like do a lot of extra time. And Kristen had talked about this as well as like um, you know doing bits of extra research and outside um archaeology stuff you know stuff at that part of your work so you guys sort of both put on that. But basically um you if like you were giving advice to like. 02:52.35 archpodnet Yeah. 03:06.50 Doug I Know a new archaeologist or a new student. They may have picked up thumbs up and they may have been super confused online wait um do I need to do this or like ah how do I do that? Um, and that's the basics of the whole study is like passion and is. 03:08.98 archpodnet Ah. 03:17.97 Andrew Kinkella Ah, right. 03:26.30 Doug Actively not measurable. It's not objective yet. Ah well okay, so our sample is quite small if is 2 of you guys. But yeah, one ah hundred percent of you said you need to have passionton to do archaeology and you both thought you could measure it and you both name different things that could be measured. 03:40.18 archpodnet Ah, oh. 03:45.42 archpodnet Seems legit. 03:46.17 Doug How you would measure it how you could prove it. Um, yeah, but I think this so this is this is why I think archaeology has a passion problem is so I've seen this and and this was sort of peaked by a couple months ago I think the social media was on Twitter where someone was basically talking about like. 03:46.20 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I think so. 04:06.12 Doug Um, you know how how they're having a hard time breaking into archaeology. Um and the advice that came back was like oh you just have to be passionate. Um and of course birth and snap back was like I am passionate um, but it really triggered on something and I started investigating that like they were talking about. 2 different things about what they thought passion was um and what it would be get archeology I think there's a huge problem we have in that like I I think you know, um again I gave you guys leading questions. But um, if you were to give advice and you know giving advice on. 04:29.60 Andrew Kinkella Ah, yeah. 04:44.92 Doug Sure we've done it on the podcast before as we say oh you need to have passion for archaeology which is a horrible thing to say is basically it's completely um, subjective and doesn't actually help anyone and probably I think leads to quite a few problems. 04:47.62 Andrew Kinkella Oh. 04:57.31 archpodnet Um. 05:04.65 Doug In that what you guys sort described as passion would probably be considered exploitive working practices. So like bothly oh oh that was where I'm throwing the grenade I Myself pull this pin and drop drop it it and let you guys have it out it. Okay. 05:15.37 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, it. 05:22.23 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 05:23.85 Doug But like both of you guys? Um, basically described that people probably one that quote terms you guys said was like someone just comes in and works the time like like or it was just there for a paycheck I think is something you guys probably both said in in a certain way. So. 05:40.34 archpodnet Um. 05:40.97 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 05:43.57 Doug Which is like um, there's a lot of studies out there about how like passion and you know you should if you're it's a job you should just work to the time you're paid. Um, otherwise you're being exploited So I'm a toss deck grenade in there and let you guys have had it. 05:55.14 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 06:03.51 Doug And sorry you'll probably feel attacked at the moment. Um, now that I've just said you guys are part of the problem of destroying the profession. Um, but you know. 06:10.63 Andrew Kinkella No see I I'm of the older generation. So I never feel attacked. Okay, so don't worry about it I'm good. Um I would just say a few things and obviously Chris you can go for first I feel like Doug I feel like this is ah the movie moneyball where like. 06:26.91 archpodnet Ah. 06:27.56 Andrew Kinkella Ah, Chris and I are like hey you just feel it. It's all about feel and you're like no losers here's the excel spreadsheet just hire some adult who doesn't give a damn about archeology and you'll make more money. Um, but I do think I do think you can see passion I think in in that instance where you said. 06:35.76 Doug And. 06:37.51 archpodnet Um. 06:46.34 Andrew Kinkella Online where somebody was like oh you just have to be passionate there you in that instance though, they're using passion in order to like um, kind of screw someone over you know, like you can you can talk about stuff that isn't really working out and it's not a fair answer to be like oh you're just not passionate enough. No no, no, no, no. 06:55.62 archpodnet Ah. 07:05.68 Andrew Kinkella I could be finally passionate my own time but I happen to be not making enough money right now you know so that's what I would say to that I love Chris what do you think. 07:09.15 archpodnet Yeah, well I I mean first off I completely disagree that it's that you shouldn't have passion for your job and you should just be there for a paycheck like that's the that is the base reason why you're you're for sure there I mean we take it as a. 07:19.25 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 07:26.26 archpodnet As a a fact of life that you need to do some kind of job to live and pay your bills and and be a person in this world right? Unless you're independently wealthy and came into money then you pretty much have to work and if you're going to have to work. Why not have it be something that you actually enjoy doing right? I mean I've I've moved around. 07:30.53 Andrew Kinkella Right. 07:44.46 archpodnet Done a few different things not just archeology and I wouldn't I wouldn't be doing something if I didn't enjoy it now. Do you enjoy every facet of it. Probably not. There's obviously things that you're just not going to like but overall do you like doing it. You know it's the it's the common question would you still be doing something in this space. 07:51.37 Andrew Kinkella And. 08:00.40 archpodnet Not necessarily field teching and and digging shovel tests but would you still be doing something in this space if you won the lottery and I think a lot of archeologists would probably would probably say yes they again they wouldn't be probably taking shovel tests but might take that opportunity to go fund their own research or you know. 08:13.89 Andrew Kinkella Brave. Yep. 08:18.47 archpodnet Do something along those lines and that that is where it comes in. You know, that's where if you if you don't say yes to that question then it's like sure you can still do this job but it's like why? Why don't you find something where the answer to that question is yes, you know what I mean. 08:31.57 Andrew Kinkella Absolutely And oh also in terms of that overtime working or whatever that that can be many many things that doesn't mean in your free time. You're doing something for the company or for the University it means maybe you have a passion project. You know like oh. 08:48.74 archpodnet Um. 08:49.34 Andrew Kinkella On Tuesday afternoons you go do this thing that's also archeology but has nothing to do with your daytime archeology job. So it doesn't have to be where you're being exploited labor or something like that. 08:54.28 archpodnet Brett. Yeah, yeah, and I I didn't wasn't even necessarily talking about people Doug I think you may have inferred this from what I said but I never said so come in early and stay late, especially for no pay I was really referring to people who get off work at night. You know they they take those shower they they sit down and. 09:07.79 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 09:16.30 archpodnet Instead of watching you know Seinfeld all night and and just you know mindlessly doing nothing which does have its purpose. Trust me I do the same thing but also occasionally you're you know watching the discovery channel or you know something on Youtube that's educational or reading a book about archeology and I'm not saying that's a requirement but those kinds of people. 09:24.30 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 09:30.62 Andrew Kinkella Right? what. 09:35.51 archpodnet Do have just a little bit more of ah of a stake in the field. Emotionally I think than they do just just workwise. You know what? I mean because they're probably going to do that stuff even if they can't find work in Crm. Um, and there's just nothing for them and they end up working at Starbucks they're probably still. Reading and doing it's people who listen to this podcast right? Not necessarily this podcast this is more of a niche topic but like like the archeology show is ah it more of a a broad audience. Those people aren't archeologists but they all say they want to be archaeologists every single person I talk to this listen to the show. They're like oh I always want to be an archeologist when I grew up but I just never did that that's passion. You know what I mean. 09:56.22 Andrew Kinkella It's. 10:10.93 archpodnet Or or ignorance one of the 2 But either way it's passion. But. 10:11.44 Andrew Kinkella Yep, oh. I agree. So so at this point Doug you should feel attacked because Chris and I are ganging up on yale yeah here we're cut we're coming. But yeah. 10:21.20 archpodnet That's right. 10:22.51 Doug I Oh no, no I knew how this was going to go it was it was a bit of a trap be like those questions were a bit leading and that it sort of set you guys up to say that passion was something that was important. Um, sorry. 10:34.62 Andrew Kinkella You you know I could see somebody on the other side like like just for the sake of argument being like no actually the number 1 thing is like solid skill set you know or something like that I could see like if you're really well skilled. Well if you're not as passionate you could still you know you could you could make that argument. But. 10:47.63 archpodnet Um. 10:51.52 archpodnet Yeah. 10:54.40 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, so it's not totally leading. 10:56.85 Doug I oh no no I I believe that so I I would argue the complete others side of that. Um, yeah I so I absolutely okay, so we're slightly go back to off the record stuff. Um'm not Goingnna mention the details because it's gonna cause a horok but before this episode started. We were talking about a certain set of archaeologists who we dislike and I would be willing to say that every single one of those archaeologists having. 11:17.31 archpodnet Ah. 11:32.89 Doug C incredibleible amounts of however you define that um, and that pauses them to go on social media and raid and rage and rage against the machine and against the flowers and against planets and against Karl. 11:36.60 archpodnet Ah. 11:51.19 archpodnet Huh. 11:51.44 Doug Against Sarah and against whoever um and so like we're talking about like you know? Ah, if we weren't involved in archaeology. We might actually like completely cut off all archaeologists because you. There's a ah certain ah large percentage of archaeologists are not blessing people to be around. Um exactly and that that's like those people are so insane because of passion like so you could tell. 12:14.19 archpodnet Not what it's gone. No One. It's not their own their way. Yeah. Yeah. 12:28.15 Doug None of those people. None of the people on Facebook or Twitter or anything like that if they just sign up for the job. They're there from 9 to 5 they look as a job that gets them money. Maybe they slightly enjoy it. Maybe they don't but the the purpose is not to like um as we somewhat define doing a bunch of extra work. And that means that those people are like man it is 5 one I am not going to be on Twitter I mean you guys did some very positive examples of like oh you know, reading a book in their spare time and enjoying it and and those are very positive but also like lot of passionate people. Do let's say less. 12:57.76 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 13:06.57 Doug Positive activities with their passion. However, you are define that. 13:07.18 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but you you know what? I think I think probably passion and bitterness or close bedfellows. You know people who've been passionate about something and then not rewarded tend to kind of lash out so it's it's later down the line. 13:08.46 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, Oh yeah. Yeah I think so hey with that. Let's take a break and let's take a break doug and we'll wrap this up on the other side back in a minute. 13:21.71 Doug I Yeah but then. 13:25.58 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, sounds good.