00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the cm archeology podcast episode 85 and we're passionately talking about the field of archeology and whether or not passion is required. That's right, that's right? Well I got to say. 00:07.71 Doug No, not logical, no passion for me, no passion for me. Do thats like that. 00:10.14 Andrew Kinkella No I'm I'm I'm bitterly talking about it. 00:17.67 archpodnet Doug you were mentioning at at the end of the last segment about you know these these keyboard warriors and people are complaining on social media must have passion and in order to you know? Otherwise why would they do that right? Why don't they just quit and go find something else to do and I got to say I think people people really just get. Angry when the job they have regardless of what it is isn't going at the way they expected it to or you know something they don't feel like they're being fairly treated they are going to rail on social media about that and my just glaring example of that is I was it a documentary or something I saw not too long ago about dollar general employees. Oh you know what? it was ah John Oliver he had a whole segment on dollar general on ah on ah last week tonight and it's worth a watch It's definitely worth a watch because there are people shooting videos on social media and Youtube and commenting and doing all these things about the horrible. Horrible working conditions at Dollar general and I guarantee you they do not have a passion for working a dollar general for minimum wage right? They just don't have a passion for that. It's just like wherever they happen to be in their hometown or their personal circumstances. They can't work anywhere else right? For whatever reason they have to work there so because they have to work there. They're going to complain about the horrific conditions at most of those stores and and the way that they're treated and and just all that stuff. But I guarantee you they do not have passion for that job. I mean I guarantee it I mean maybe managers they just want to manage and do something that's a little bit different role than say a clerk or something like that. But even there I mean it's just. 01:49.69 archpodnet I can't I can't see it I can't see somebody having maybe that's just me but I can't see that so I think there's a little bit of this I'm just a human and I don't want to be treated unfairly and I have a place to complain about that aka social media and therefore I'm going to do that I don't think that necessarily means that those are passionate people for the job. It might just mean they're complainers too right? That's also a thing too people just complain. There's are some people that would just complain about everything. Um, but then there's other people that will I feel like the ones that that you can see that might have passion are the ones that are trying to find solutions rather than trying to point out more of the problems right? like there's a few people trying to. Get this whole archeology union thing going again and there's other people saying oh we maybe we should do this? Maybe we should do that instead of saying I hate this and I hate that right I mean that does that does nothing and I the ones that are trying to solve the problems I think are the ones with the passion but I don't know just 1 example I was thinking of. 02:43.16 Doug So well. So that's sort of segways nicely into what we had sort of discussed for what we're going to do for this third segment. Um, and that's been something to sort of think about is that? Um, so Chris right there you said you know. You think passion would be people who are trying to do something different instead of the complainers. You'd actually see people as complainers as not not having passion sorry I want mean to put words into your mouth that pretty much sums up what you just said right? yeah. 03:04.82 archpodnet Right. 03:14.78 archpodnet Yeah, not as much Anyway, not as much visible passion. You know, maybe they do. They're just not articulating it very well. 03:22.36 Doug And yeah I think this is um, one of the problems though is like so both of you guys. Both said you need to have passion for the job I asked you and Chris you you you had sort of said um well you, you'd mainly hired people that you knew so you haven't actually had much of as a chance to like sort of hire people. 03:42.50 archpodnet Right. 03:42.36 Doug Based on passion whereas Andrew basically said man you you're hiring people but and ah nothing but passion. Sorry Andrew Am I putting words into your into your mouth. It's quite exaggeration and. 03:51.61 Andrew Kinkella Ah, now you know I I would say it's a little bit of an exaggeration but it is based on what I said off the cuff that now no matter what passion is a major major element but of course if you're like. Like have no skills whatsoever. But youre passion like you're not going to.. You're not going to make it but in in this field I think so many of the jobs are so highly Prized. Ah throughout archeology right? So Basically so many people have this this skill set. What's going to push you over the top is your passion and the way that you kind of um, relate that passion to other people. 04:27.31 Doug I I think that that's a key problem of of how we look at that is is how you relate it? um because I could think of a lot of so you guys have both named different ways of how to like sort demonstrate passion. How to relate it? Um I think the problem with that is it also sort of filters out a lot of people who. 04:27.63 archpodnet Ah. 04:45.29 Doug Probably are very passionate. Um, again, it is a completely subjective but it's a self- feelingeling so I could be I could say I'm a hundred percent passionate and you have there's no way of actually using a yardstick to to measure that but by trying to do a yard sick which we do all the time. Um. I think we're filthy on a lot of people I'm thinking you know there's a lot of people who are maybe like neurodiverse who maybe like if they're giving a talk and ah ah you know, just kind of do an interview. Maybe they're just not very animated I mean you guys sort talked about seeing in their eyes and I've I've seen it guys like I have video recorded and edited ah 6 8000 um presentations video you know presentations at conferences and like I could tell you that like there are some people who are super engaging. Not for the topic but like how excited they are about the topic. 05:29.90 archpodnet That's crazy. 05:40.40 Doug But that's a certain type of person that's someone who can get animated someone who like changes their voice and goes yes Poy ah um, and you're like I can care less about podrey. But then you you are getting me excited about podterggery. Um, and that's the thing though is like you. 05:46.64 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 05:47.65 archpodnet Huh. 05:59.34 Doug Then we hire those people but that's not necessarily like the skills and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're more passionate to anyone else and I'm just thinking like you know again like people who maybe like spend a little extra time after work or you know volunteer for stuff but you know man if you have. Kids like you have to be out at 5 you you have to pick them up from the school run like like like they are like yeah the school is not going to look after them. They're they're at the curb and you know you're you're picking them up or someone else is picking them up at that time and so like. 06:19.55 archpodnet Yeah. 06:36.82 Doug If you're trying to demonstrate like passion by being able to be there. You know, spend half an hour after work doing whatever needs to be done. That's ah also ah, always doable I think that the big problem that archaeology has is one. It's incredibly. Ah. 06:46.85 archpodnet Ah. 06:54.80 Doug Subjective what we think passion is and we're hiring off of it I think we're actually probably not I don't know if there's any way you could ever be able to measure passion. So we're probably actually turning down a lot packing up people and maybe were hiring people who um Chris you said that. Are not packed. You know, but maybe they give off the impression because they're e-board warriors and you're like yeah that person's definitely passionate I see them on Twitter all the time talking about archeology. 07:22.20 Andrew Kinkella But but you know I would say there's 2 ways here. There's there's passion in your own head for your own discipline or whatever and then there's passion in terms of socially like interacting and no matter what archeology is an extremely like. 07:24.59 archpodnet Ah. 07:36.38 Andrew Kinkella Interactive Teamwork drivenve situation like man I can't even barely think of a discipline that is more kind of Team. You know, associated the archeology Crew. It's a crew. You know you're never working in a vacuum. So. Yes, you could have passion in your head that you show to no one. That's fine. That's fine, but also there does have to be a social aspect of it of it too and I'm not saying you have to be some awesome like life of the party who tells jokes all the time but you just have to be in the mix. 07:57.35 archpodnet Ah. 08:08.60 Doug It? Yeah, but then we're we're basically filtering for people who are in the mix and maybe like so if we're looking at this genetically. Yeah, go go back to that. Okay. 08:16.91 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, no wait, Let me just break in for a second and say just just that. Yes, yes, we're filtering for people who can deal socially because it is a social Job. You know like if it's if there are aspects of it that are not like if you're if you're working alone in a lab. Okay. That is not social. You know, but almost every other aspect is interacting with people in in the field ah in in bureaucracy and government and you know um landowners like do you have to have people's kills. 08:38.11 archpodnet Ah. 08:50.66 archpodnet Yeah I think so. 08:57.31 Doug Yeah, but those same people skills the double-edged sword are the are those people skills the same ones that are showing up on ah as Keyboard Warriors like like you know, think about it like as if you're doing most simple genetics where like ah yeah, you started? um. 09:14.38 Doug Basically breeding for a certain trait and all of a sudden you end up with a hug and horrible side effect or even like you know a german shepherd where you've read for 1 thing and now they have horrible hips or things like that. Um, if we are if we are filtering for people that we think are passionate. 09:21.36 Andrew Kinkella Um. 09:25.32 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yes. 09:27.20 archpodnet Ah. 09:31.53 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 09:33.51 Doug And that passionate means certain aspects. We might also be filtering for let's say less than desirable characteristics. Um that we find in certain archeologists. Um. 09:48.67 Andrew Kinkella I Don't know man I think that's a stretch I think that and also saying that. Um, ah people who are ah passionate. Ah you know online or or whatever. Ah, you're conflating like the fact that Online. You're not personable at all if you're online. It's like the opposite of being personal Personable. You're by yourself on a computer using it as a shield to attack others so you're not personable at all right. 10:07.29 archpodnet Ah. 10:15.70 archpodnet Well and it's it's almost well. It's almost worse than that well hold on any it doug you're not even in the some of the groups on on Facebook as much as some of the others are and I'm an admin on on one of the biggest ones of course archaeo field Techs and. 10:15.47 Doug And well we don't know that but people can be completely different in person and online. 10:19.90 Andrew Kinkella Yeah now. 10:33.28 archpodnet I'll tell you what anytime somebody is really passionate about something or really concerned that they could have retribution. They post anonymously right? and there's been huge conversations about posting anonymously in a private group and it's just like you know. 10:39.56 Andrew Kinkella Right. 10:48.22 archpodnet Yeah, the fact that this field requires somebody to post anonymously otherwise they will get retribution on something is a little messed up to begin with right? We don't have some sort of ah a safety net for people to really you know tell somebody and and have action done on on whatever their situation is. 10:52.78 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 11:04.66 archpodnet And and have no fear of retribution right? that That's a really difficult thing to find there might be some organizations that allow that. But it's It's really difficult in Crm Um, and then not only that but there are situations not confirmed but suspected where somebody's been so paranoid about retribution that they created a fake account. Joined the group and then started railing against people right? So It's just that's passion. It's also passion for not wanting to be messed with and and having ah a decent job and not having to worry about all this crap but it's also you know it's also Passion. So I don't know for good or for worse. 11:38.72 Andrew Kinkella Right. 11:39.14 Doug Know but that's what I'm saying is actually like passion it. It isn't It isn't passion the sense. Ah essentially passion can be wherever you want it it to be like it's not. There's not any objective can't measure passion. But. 11:51.32 archpodnet Ah. 11:55.68 Doug You can't actually really define passion like like you know? Okay, so yes, you can go to Webster's yeah oh yeah, yeah, it comes back to the ah supreme courts. Yeah, like yeah, um, I'll know it when I see it. Um, yeah, but if it's something. 11:59.22 archpodnet You You can't but we all know what it is. 12:03.34 Andrew Kinkella Um, there is that? yeah. 12:09.17 archpodnet Right? right. 12:15.24 Doug A horrible thing to do if it's something. That's so important to archeology like if everyone's hiring off a passion but it's something you'll know it when you see it and that is going to be demoralizing to a lot of people who are just told they need to have passion but they think they do and they do. 12:20.48 archpodnet Ah. 12:24.58 Andrew Kinkella It. But you know what you know what I would say at the end of the day though like the hirings I've done that were passion is a huge part of it which like all of them. They all turned out great. So like whatever my like Mojo Mumbo Jumbo is about passion. 12:35.50 Doug Yeah, oh. 12:46.25 archpodnet Yeah. 12:48.56 Doug You except you don't know that like because you you haven't done you you ahha because you you had choice you would have to be able to do a random sample so you'd have to say like these are my choices flip a coin and then you'd have to say like. 12:48.67 Andrew Kinkella It's it's working I have a hundred percent like ah success. 13:02.21 Andrew Kinkella Ah, you. 13:07.76 Doug So here's the one that coin chose and here's the one I chose with a nut large enough sample and then be able to say actually I and you in the people whisper of passion and you know you know? and yeah, but like honestly because no, it's I see Yeah i've've I've been in and. 13:19.76 Andrew Kinkella Well, that part's true, but ah. 13:19.99 archpodnet Ah. 13:27.40 Doug Talks with ah other archeologists who've told undergraduates are like I can just look at you and tell if you'd be a good archeology or not and they're like I'm always right? I'm like well you have there's no, you haven't actually done ah ah a time pick a test and you're just reinforcing like you don't know the person you didn't hire would have been I don't know. Won the Nobel um in something even though we're all an archeologist. There's no, but no, no, no yeah, there's no nobel in archeology but you never know like they could have been that and you don't know because you didn't hire them. Yeah so I see that a lot though but like a lot archaeologists are super confident and they're. 13:47.53 Andrew Kinkella In archeology. 13:55.11 Andrew Kinkella I know I destroyed their life I blame myself. 13:57.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:05.75 Doug Hiring skilled and like oh well home man I remember I went to a talk or I went to an interview I got to you know there's different panel got to meet the owner and the owner was basically just like yeah yeah, you know we may choose you. We may not but whatever choice we do. We're making the right choice. 14:07.51 Andrew Kinkella Ah I. 14:24.71 Doug As like fuck you dude um yo like I was like well it was It was a a level of cockiness. Um and lots people have that they're like yeah we've made the right choice. Obviously it worked out because we made the choice but actually you have no way of. 14:25.92 Andrew Kinkella Well I don't know what are they going to say look. 14:41.41 Andrew Kinkella Um, I think I. 14:43.16 Doug Testing that and no one does any test that would do that and. 14:44.40 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but I know I've done a ton of hiring and and it's not I don't think anyone on the hiring committees feels like they're just great hirers. It's done through hard work and time like it takes a lot of time to hire someone. 14:47.21 archpodnet Ah. 15:00.57 Andrew Kinkella You know you do really read those Cvs closely. You do really read the letters's recommendation closely because this is serious. You're going to be trapped with this person for years so you want to you know make a good make it good. So I never feel confident I just feel like man I put the work in I did the best I could. 15:16.39 Doug And but also you're selecting for someone that again, it's it's selection bias on you're selecting for someone who you think you'll get along with for years which is maybe not necessarily which honestly like yeah working with crap people I get that. 15:16.77 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 15:35.99 archpodnet Ah. 15:36.35 Doug Um, but that might not be the best selector of of people is like is this giving my bro for the next twenty years um is maybe not the always the best um election criteria. 15:36.62 Andrew Kinkella Um. 15:42.38 archpodnet Right. 15:47.79 Andrew Kinkella It is a portion of it though like again, it's very complex and there's all kinds of variables on that you know, but it it is. It is one and it's not self-centered. It's it's like does this person. It's much more you think of it. Can they jibe in this setting. You know with these people. It's not just me. 15:53.45 archpodnet Yeah. 16:03.56 archpodnet Ah. 16:07.24 Andrew Kinkella It's yeah, the other professors or my other co-workers. It's the people who work in the lab. It's like this whole kind of mini community. Can they like work in this small village with us you know and that's that's really what you're looking for and in terms of if their students are. 16:15.33 archpodnet Right. 16:21.77 Andrew Kinkella That kind of thing can they you know also inspire and work with them. That's huge. Yeah. 16:24.53 archpodnet Okay, we got to end the show and this segment any final thoughts doug on on your little experiment here. 16:34.15 Doug So um, yeah I mean it basically panned out how the other research did um I Still don't think I've convinced you guys that hiring for passion is ah is a bad thing. Um, ah But. I know maybe some of the listeners will have ah maybe I've ah sparked some interest and and listeners over' just going to get a bunch of angry emails about like you know it was all for the CRm podcast and for that passion episode and now I've lost my passion for for the CRm podcast today. 16:58.69 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, like. 17:00.72 archpodnet Ah. 17:06.70 Andrew Kinkella Ah, yeah, you you know Doug I you you did not um, turn my opinion but I thought this was super fun and a great idea for an episode. 17:07.87 Doug So. 17:14.90 archpodnet Yeah, for sure all right? Well with that while doug stews on his passion for disagreeing with Andrew and I we will sit at this show. And ah come back next time if you've got thoughts on this. Definitely let us know I'm sure somebody will comment this on on archaeo field text. Um, because apparently that's what happens and and and you know scratch all that. Um, yeah. 17:38.50 Doug I I mean I No no, it's it's understandable. You guys just aren't as passionate as I am about this topic I should go find I really should I should have gone about out is's more passionate and it would gone better and you guys would have agreed with me. It's your lack of passion and that's that probably my define passion guys. 17:44.38 Andrew Kinkella Um, right exactly? um. 17:50.14 archpodnet Um, yeah, right right? nice. 17:54.75 Andrew Kinkella Um, it is a stolen trail. That's right, That's right, That's right? Ah, ah exactly just. 17:57.82 Doug But agreeing with me that you you have a passion if you agree with me all right? So ah i't have to find some people who just don't bone it in who aren't here just to collecting the paycheck from the Cn podcast ah that that those little. 18:10.23 Andrew Kinkella Collecting the check. 18:14.20 Doug Yeah, that that dead look in your guys is eye I can hear it in your voice. You just don't you're not hear for this passion guys. Um I you I I might do this again. We you do this game with Bill and Heather I'm sure they'll have the right amount of passion. Um. 18:16.92 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, ah no. 18:22.71 archpodnet Okay, um, yeah, indeed. 18:24.76 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, exactly not like these dead beats I Know the tone. 18:31.50 Doug Yeah, it could as hear in your voice Andrew it just it's soulless. Yeah, it's soulless. 18:35.88 archpodnet Okay, with that like send us your comments tell us about all your passion or lack thereof and we will see you guys next time all right keeping it rolling for the outro. 18:37.53 Andrew Kinkella The. 18:43.75 Andrew Kinkella Oh. 18:49.76 Doug Goodbye with passion. 18:51.80 Andrew Kinkella God I'll see you guys next time. Oh he didn't even say the outro yet. This is the real me. Oh. 18:51.88 archpodnet Rich Rachel's just I didn't even say the outro yet all right? yeah. 18:56.26 Doug I know but I'm so passionate I'm I'm getting there before I'm getting there before you do it see I'm showing my initiative I'm passionate I'm ah be there before you need me to be there. So I'm waiting you know I'm um I'm that person who's there early Chris. 19:08.42 archpodnet Okay, all right? Well goodbye and to Rachel who's editing this keep all that stuff in and my little thing where I already say thanks to everyone for joining me this week just put all this after that all right.