00:01.23 archpodnet Hello and welcome to the CRMArcheology podcast episode 284 and I am your host today Andrew Kingkella and I am joined by Doug. 00:20.00 archpodnet And I'm also joined by Heather look at that a bunch of happy people here. Ah to talk about I think we're going to talk about. 00:21.57 Heather Hi everyone. 00:32.82 archpodnet You know, right? before we started this show. We were kind of going back and forth that we actually do this a lot like okay what are we and talk about today. Sometimes we have a really focused succinct plan and other days are like today. Um, but you know what's great is there's always kind of something. Like an experience we might have had recently and we kind of all came together on the topic of what to do when your suppliers go out of business right? So maybe it's tools. Maybe it's screens that you've bought for decades from 1 place that you really like and then suddenly they go out of business. Maybe it's carbon 14 dates from a group that you've used and then all of a sudden they're going out of business right? Maybe it's computer programs or apps this kind of thing and what to do are there any workarounds what have we heard that other people do to sort of maintain their supplies and I thought I would go first. And then we'll open it up because this is an experience that I had recently. There's a um carbon fourteen dating company called direct a mess and many of you listening may know them. They came about oh maybe the better part of a decade ago. Maybe a bit less and. When I saw their prices this was sort of word of mouth like oh hey Andrew you should have your samples sent to direct Ams right? They're this company in Washington State and their prices were really competitive and um I was like wow this is this is great and I started sending my samples to them and everything was. 02:06.58 archpodnet Was a happy world right? I'd send my samples I'd get the dates back and these also were Ams dates that were basically the same price as kind of regular old school carbon 14 dating right? So you would get these a Ms. Dates which are. Better than the classic style for a really great deal right? So I just switched everything over in a semester and a couple months ago though I started to kind of not hear from them. And then I got an email saying oh we're so sorry to tell you that direct Ams is shutting down you know and I'm like oh no because sure there are other carbon 14 dating companies out there. But for me in this point in the academic world. That means I have to shuffle a ton of stuff behind the scenes in order to get money to the new company because what happens in the academic world is I have to kind of earmark money months if not years beforehand to pay for. Kinds of things like carbon 14 dates right? So the money's all sent in its special box being signed off by every dean and manager right? that says. Okay, you can pay direct Ams what happens when there's no more direct Ams so you have to kind of find a new company which I have and sort of. 03:37.45 archpodnet Put them into the system and basically kind of hope that you can get the money re earmarked and try and re earmark money in a bureaucracy good luck. Ah, and at the same time while you're re earmarking the money. There's also a time limit and actually for me the time limit I believe is March we're recording this on February Twenty fifth um where if you don't spend the money in a certain time. They also take it away. So. I am in a quandary of quandaries I feel bad for direct Ams and I I will say they were very honest, right? Some companies just leave or you just sort of hear from them less and they sort of fade. So direct ams was being very professional and honest about what was happening. It's just a bummer and difficult for me and I know a lot of other people have had those kind of experiences Heather. Ah. 04:16.40 Heather Why. 04:23.80 Heather Yeah, yeah more I am shedding many tears I have and I still am at the loss of direct IMS they were great. They were so in my experience. 04:28.59 archpodnet What's up. How's how how are you doing in terms of this stuff. 04:35.43 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:41.70 Heather And they never did it fail they were responsive. They were quick. They were ah business minded very professional and how they handled things they were awesome. They followed through on everything I never had an 1 issue not one it's so and then on top of that they were. 04:46.35 archpodnet Yep. 04:51.29 archpodnet Yep. 05:00.14 archpodnet Yes, and. 05:00.16 Heather Reasonable in their prices maybe and I don't know you know the business model. Maybe they were too reasonable I don't know. Yeah, um, it's sad because I mean it's very expensive quit equipment I think most people that are listening would realize that um and so. 05:08.45 archpodnet That's my thinking but I don't know. 05:13.52 archpodnet M. 05:19.88 Heather Maybe you know the updating of some of the equipment that obviously is going to have to occur over I think they were in business for a little over a decade. Um, yeah, um. 05:29.90 archpodnet Right? It sounds about right to me. 05:34.41 Heather And so maybe you know the cost of updating their equipment may have been just too much I don't know but it. 05:38.10 archpodnet Yeah I I want to say I feel I I feel like I heard that they'd mentioned that something broke or something and it was prohibitively expensive but I could be wrong. Yeah. 05:45.22 Heather Yeah, it is so it's just so sad to me it is what it is and so we got to move past it. But it's sad and you know I've noticed that there's some really good business people in the discipline of archeology and in. Services that surround Archeology. There are some that there aren't many and there's a lot of attitudes that it's you know what I have you over a barrel and so I'm going to get it to you when I get it to you. There's no concept that your. 06:08.32 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:17.35 archpodnet Bright. 06:22.19 Heather Customer needs has clients that they are that they need to answer to and projects they need to finish on a certain timeline. There's no concept of that for some in some services that archaeologists need to use and it's extremely frustrating but direct Ams understood that. 06:39.99 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:41.67 Heather I Think part of the problem and I don't know if you know I I know that that's the issue because you know I have been looking at other labs and I have had to use other labs for other reasons and there is a movement now right? that. 06:50.81 archpodnet Me too. 06:58.10 Heather A lot of these labs are located within universities and it's not looked at ah in some in some states you can't do it at all and as a whole universities now are rethinking the idea of whether or not they're going to do any testing. On archeological remains that come from Native American sites and so now you have these universities that are putting these blanket um prohibitions on taking any kind of material from a native American site and I know this is. 07:18.78 archpodnet Yeah. 07:25.95 archpodnet Right. Yeah. 07:34.76 Heather Every time we mention this kind of stuff we get responses ah from places you know from your European countries. They're like what but this now is a big problem because now we can't do studies on on certain and these are sometimes. 07:43.56 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:53.58 Heather You know, especially with native American sites I mean you already have tribal involvement but there's this stop and prohibition. There's no, they don't even think about it. They're not. There's no consideration whatsoever. So now you can't do this analysis now. What do you do? so. 07:57.68 archpodnet Um, yes, yeah. 08:08.22 archpodnet Um, right? That's my experience too So often the tribe wants to know too. You know and now but then there's just this blanket law. Yeah, ah, it's it's so it's so unfortunate one one other just. 08:13.58 Heather Right. 08:22.11 archpodnet Positive thing I would say about direct Ams that just came into my mind as we were talking is direct Ams would give you everything you need and nothing you didn't you know what? I mean like in terms of when you get the dates back so you have all these choices you know and they would just automatically give you the. 08:30.57 Heather Yes, yes. 08:40.58 Heather Yes. 08:41.55 archpodnet Basics which I loved because most the other places they just give you everything and they charge accordingly right? and you're like right right? No explanation. Yeah, and you're like I don't need the percentage of cobalt. 08:47.00 Heather With no explanation of how they got to that right? yeah. 08:57.63 archpodnet In this sample you know, like just just the date please and but they just kind of turn on their system and then you know charge you basically double so that was 1 other thing I really appreciate it. It was really kind of a pure business model at least it seemed that way to me? yep. 08:58.18 Heather Right. 09:09.28 Heather Yeah, that was great. Yeah, but so now you know what do we do? What do archeologists do now I mean everybody is scrambling. They're going there are places that are still around but they are nearly 3 times the price. 09:19.30 archpodnet I. Um, yeah. 09:28.81 Heather Sometimes more and so now what do you do with budgets so this is and we don't we don't need to I mean this could be a whole other subject but just to answer that 1 question this is why assumptions in a budget are very important. 09:33.71 archpodnet Ah. 09:44.93 archpodnet Oh yeah, that's a great one. Yeah see from for me I Just simply do fewer samples I'm like oh well, you know, um, but some yeah. 09:46.81 Heather Yeah, sure and sometimes sometimes you can do that in. Let's say in a Crm world. You may have a stipulation in the mitigation measure that requires so many dates. 10:01.59 archpodnet Yeah, exactly. 10:06.64 Heather That are or so many specimens are processed so that's you know you can't like you know, pull your hair out and say the world is over I mean that's where you have to get creative and you ah apocalypse that explains a lot. Ah. 10:17.13 archpodnet Um, wait you can't I Oh man that was a bad choice on my part. Yeah does. Ah. 10:25.69 Heather Okay, you look good bald to Andrew it's okay so um, but you know you talk to the agency. There's different things that you can do to you know, go around and sometimes you have to eat it because if you haven't put in those assumptions. That's why assumptions in a proposal. To cover yourself and there there's definitely some. You know some broad assumptions that you can use in order to um, cover yourself in a situation like this and you know what? sometimes you just don't know that you need that assumption until it happens and it bites you in the butt and now you know. 10:52.41 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:02.70 archpodnet Yep, yep, perfect example I didn't even think of that. Yeah, it's like that the the budgetary leave yourself some space. Perfect example. Um, so. 11:04.56 Heather And you don't do that again. Yeah. 11:15.37 archpodnet Hey you know I think that's a natural place to just sort of um, bring this to a close when we return Doug has some penetrating insights on what to do when your suppliers go out of business see you in a minute.