00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the sera mark podcast episode 88 and we're talking about the you know futility of field schools sort of but not really just getting right right. 00:07.59 Heather E. 00:07.87 Bill White They're They're not futile. They're not futile. They're just it's like we live in a different world is all there is to it and I think we might have aged out of them. 00:12.39 Heather Yeah, yeah. 00:16.29 archpodnet Yeah, maybe Heather you had some comments on on the last segment go ahead. 00:20.90 Heather Yeah I would just say in general first and I'm just going to tackle the general and the one of the topics. Um in general ah field schools I think are important if they're done correctly. Um, otherwise the field school does not necessarily have to happen. 00:24.36 archpodnet So. 00:37.90 Heather In the university setting. Um I think that you know it's different. We have Bill and Andrew the different altogether but there's enough field schools out there that from someone who hires staff and needs to make sure that they're doing the work correctly. Um. Very few people who come from you know who are in field schools are really learning anything that's helpful in the crm um world and so it's especially if they are digging in another country and that's not to say that the that the field school is a bad field school. 01:16.58 archpodnet Yeah. 01:16.91 Heather But it's different. It. It does not help in the c or m world when you were you know, excavating in Egypt or Greece it's a come or England or Ireland it's ah it's a different excavation method and approach and so it's not helpful. Um. It really and it. The only thing that is similar or is the general theory right? and then digging like I can teach you how to put a shovel in a ground or a trow. You know it's those things are not um, yeah, and that's as far as it goes then. So what I think really needs to happen and this is across a board this is c or m two because you know I just moved companies and there were some collections in the old company lab that um that I worked at there were some. Collections that were there from prior to me working there 12 years prior still sitting on shelves because the and it's not about what happens after you're done with your excavation to me in my opinion. 02:13.78 archpodnet M. 02:24.93 archpodnet Yeah. 02:28.76 Heather It is a poor research design. It is a poor methodology like and just exactly what bill said is that it's not even considered what's going to happen on the curation side now I am seeing that more and more now in mitigation ah measures. 02:31.93 archpodnet Um. 02:47.12 Heather Where they're really thought out somebody who thinks that way and is very you know much more detailed is actually including these things in mitigation measures which I think is a good idea to some degree. Um, sometimes they can be so ah, limiting that. It doesn't account for what happens later on down the road and then you have a lead agency who's who's saying no, you got to follow the mitigation measures exactly and they and they don't work right for the project at hand.. However I do think that creating a research design that include that. 03:13.68 archpodnet Ah. 03:22.83 Heather Um, Handles what happens with everything at the end is essential like you have to have that I don't understand why somebody wouldn't be thinking that way. But um, yeah, so that has to be part of the research design and I think reburial is our friend I. 03:33.24 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:42.85 Heather Rebuial to me should be you know of course in consultation with the descendant community right? But I think rebuial is is really where it's at it. It is what allows us to you're putting it back where it belongs. 03:51.35 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 04:02.63 Heather Um, of course it's not in sutu anymore. But you are putting it back in the area that ah that it originally came from and um, having bags I mean you can have hundreds and hundreds of bags and boxes. Whatever it is that you use that just sit down the shelf and they're never looked at again. It's ridiculous and. Should go back in the ground in my opinion but the number 1 thing is the research design is got to account for what happens with everything at the end. 04:22.53 archpodnet Um. 04:30.34 archpodnet Right? But also if we're talking specifically about field schools here. The the design of the field schools should be treated like a wealth like school right? and and it seems to me because obviously you know unless you've taught field schools like like Andrew and and bill have. 04:40.16 Heather Are. 04:49.56 archpodnet Unless you've taught field schools and and set up field schools and I just go off of you know, talking to other people that have been to field schools and they sound like they're all a lot of basically the same kind of thing where the primary goal of the field school is to. Excavate and research a site typically for a professor grad student something like that that seems like the primary goal. The secondary goal seems like hey maybe you'll learn something along the way whereas really the primary goal is for the students to go through a checklist of things that hey this is my quote on the job training except it's not a job. You're paying to be there. But it's my first initial training about how to be an archaeologist in the field and how to do this. Where's my checklist of things that I need to do and learn in order to make sure that that I've done this you go to any other class in school and it's like here's the syllabus here's what you're going to learn. But you go to a field school and it's like just shut up and dig and then go get crazy at at night you know after the after the digging's over and it's just like you know what what's going on there. Well sure. 05:41.41 Heather So yeah, so so so you know I I will say yeah so I have now with my new company where we are you know I've developed a program where we're training archeologists for crosstraining. 05:45.50 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 05:45.42 Bill White Um I do the syllabus. 05:59.54 Heather Um, people in other disciplines. How to become an archeologist how to work in the field with over under the supervision of qualified archeologists and we're teaching how to dig how to excavate how to sample ah outside of an outside of a site. 06:07.27 archpodnet Um. 06:16.19 archpodnet Yeah. 06:18.90 Heather So it's in an area. You're just learning how to do things in a methodical manner and so that's how I'm teaching them I'm not teaching them in a site we are teaching them in Basically you know, kind of in you've ever done an exhibition where you you know, kind of go to a school and you teach. High school is for a day how what archeology is about it's that it's like that. But in a little bit grander scale and so now I you know I I do want to say 1 thing because Bill mentioned something in the chat ah rebaral when it comes to rebual rebaral needs to be done in a very thoughtful way. It. It needs to be accounted for and recorded so that people understand where the you know where the rebaral remains are so that it's not uncovered again accidentally and thought to be something that it is not so. Um, whenever I do rebuial I do it in a very methodical way where and we have indicator sand we have it is clear that this is not um, a sittu part of the site and then it's also recorded in the site record. So if you're gonna do the rebuial. Of course it has to be done in a. 07:14.25 archpodnet Um. 07:33.70 Heather In a certain manner. 07:35.56 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I I wanted to go back to what? um Chris said a little moment ago because I thought he totally to hit the nail on the head in terms of like field schools you know field schools are kind of 1 of 2 animals. They are either. They are either underlying field or they underlyed school. 07:43.16 archpodnet Um, so. 07:52.27 Andrew Kinkella You know what? I mean and the one that you want from the students' perspective is the school 1 right there there are field schools that are there to educate you and they have like a syllabus. They have some sort of lesson plan. They have some you know some sort of we're going to go through this skill set versus getting there and dig you know like. 08:07.78 archpodnet No. 08:10.42 Andrew Kinkella And the idea of like oh you'll just learn it. You know on the fly and you kind of do. But it's not the same you know and so it's really hard for as a student like impossible basically to know what flavor of field school. They're getting into and of course the 1 you need is the 1 08:12.69 archpodnet Yeah. 08:29.50 Andrew Kinkella That is teaching first and also a while back you know I think Doug you were talking about like the sandbox approach or whatever I just I just want to say to brag about myself again, you know I know you're very shocked but I totally do that like there's a there's basically an open field where we start, you know we do like a fake dig. Just to get the um skill set down before we do anything real so that's actually the sandbox ideas I think is really great idea and actually really easy for for professors to do if they if they so choose. Yeah. 09:00.16 Bill White So yeah Berkeley has one of those 2 09:04.56 Doug Yeah, well I was actually so if you don't mind jump if I jump in there on that comment because it was going back and bringing this back to Chris's um surgical excavation of his bowels or whatever it was um so actually the idea I i. 09:14.80 archpodnet Um. 09:16.30 Heather Which is. 09:18.14 archpodnet Ah, like ah. 09:21.24 Doug Ah, got from the ah um, doing a sandbox actually came from surgery so surgeons actually have whole kits. They're like fake skin kits and fake organ kits that they basically practice. 09:30.88 Heather You hear. 09:37.11 Doug Um, and so like actually the reason I noticed is there's a company here in Edinburgh that does it and their whole thing is like you know a pilot needs. Yeah, like the big commercial pilots get like 20000 hours of um flight time before they're allowed to do the boeing 7 thirty seven or forty seven or you know all that sort of stuff. 09:52.52 archpodnet E. 09:56.44 Doug Um, but surgeons don't and once you want your surgeon to have like a lot more than like 5 hours of practice before they open you up and so that's their whole sales pitch is it's actually a series of kits for for surgeons to practice like practice showing up. Um. Bodies and stuff like that. So you don't end up with all these horrible scars and all these you know it's that basic idea. Um, ah I always thought was ah you know you could really do it quite easily because you basically you just you're digging some pits and then filling them in with different soils so that they're looking for the certigraphy. Um. Always thought that like you could do so much more because you know the limit of a field school is. It's 1 site now sometimes field schools in that 1 site might have a couple of different time periods. It might have that range. But even then you usually don't get a chance to try a bunch of different things and we all know like. And crm even now even now we could be going out to any sort of site and it can be brand new for us. Um, so like you know hey Leo stuff I've I've done north american paleo stuff. But I've never done actually paleo stuff in like the u k um I would be. Completely have to start all over again and be a complete loss. Um, even though I'm pretty sure. Paleo's paleo. Don't tell the paleo paleo people that but um, again, it's that idea is like you could do a whole range of different things I just feel like you could also get so much more in and you could. 11:21.19 Bill White And there. 11:31.97 Doug Keep it more relevant because if you think about it like okay, you're doing a field school and that might be between. You know your your freshman your sophomore year or it might be between like your sophomore and your junior year which means basically you did maybe a couple weeks of digging A year ago and then you don't you usually don't do it after you've graduated so you've basically gone like yeah, okay, technically you you learned how to dig and you did a couple of weeks but you've probably forgot most of that over a year or two so by the time you actually get to the job. Ah, you've. No I think there's a lot of loss there and it would just be easier if like you know, um, here's your diploma and here's 20 hours of free dig time in the ah san pit out back before you go to work or something you know like a way to refresh your skills and honestly. I know we're talking field schools but probably should also do this for like crm as well. Because yeah, you can go months if not years between like digging or digging a particular sites. Um, you know? Yeah yeah. 12:38.82 Heather That speak for yourself. That's not the case here. Yeah yeah. 12:42.00 archpodnet Yes. 12:42.30 Bill White Yeah, yeah. 12:42.42 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I think skills refresher is a great idea. We do that in the in the Scuba diving industry. But. 12:47.51 archpodnet Sure. 12:48.62 Doug Ah. 12:51.80 Bill White Yeah I think you know what's interesting is those are combinations of things that are already kind of put together where I work but um, haven't really been fully fleshed out so there ah the the archaeology research archeological research facility here at Uc Berkeley 13:09.20 Bill White It was built. It's now in an old frat house and so in the courtyard they did an archaeological excavation and they left 1 corner of it still open with you know replica artifacts right? So there's you know mammal bones. So there's cowbone. There's other stuff. There's. You know flakes and other tools that students have made that are modern. There's bottles and stuff that are antiques that are kind of in there and so you practice mapping they don't really dig in that but they practice mapping in that thing but the other thing about identifying artifacts from different you know time periods. We have these kits that we take to elementary schools and and show them these different kinds of artifacts from you know, indigenous California mexican hispanic Colonial California we have you know ancient Rome ones we don't really have paleo because there's a lot of sharp rocks in there right? These are kids. 13:46.86 Heather Yep. 14:00.82 Bill White But we do have you know, kind of replica ceramics other things that are you know similar ceramics that they might have found in Spanish Colonial California ah things that are replicas of projectile points and seeds and beans and other things and then students. Go through an exercise where there's you know a box that we create together that has kitty litter unused kitty litter in it I got to clarify unused kitty litter and they use their brushes to brush away the you know stuff and identify those things and after about six or seven minutes you know when they have a handful of things you ask them questions like. 14:25.18 Heather Um. 14:33.25 Bill White Why do you think there would have been this. You know rib bone in there. Why do you think that there would have been these beans in there. Why do you think there's a ceramics. What do you think people could have used it for and then kids go through the motions and then we talk to them about you know sadiments and artifacts and everything and then they move on to the next station they go to ancient Rome and then they move on to the next one it's like you know. Eighteen Hundreds California so if you could mix those things together right? and then just you know teach students with these different sandbox things. But then they also have a mapping thing and then you know there's a massive lab full of you know training collections that we have they can actually see real. You know mahalicka and real things. In the lab like I think putting that whole thing together could could replicate a field school in a lot of ways and. 15:20.26 archpodnet All right? Yes, good points. Um, let's we I'm sure we've all got comments on that. Let's do that in our final segment on the other side of the break back in a minute.