00:00.64 archpodnet Okay, so we're back from break and I want to go back to Berkeley and your dissertation work and where where that whole journey of your current work started. 00:15.12 Clint Yeah, so I you know mentioned going into grad school having had some preliminary experience with some of the well you know through the work that I mentioned about with. The environmental services office and you know what that did was it kind of launched me into that experience with some preliminary questions in my mind and it got me thinking about well in relation to the readings and the seminars that I was having at Berkeley. You know how to apply some of this thinking and and theory and you know methodological approaches to what would eventually become my dissertation fieldboard project and it also exposed me to you know of course in grad school I had a. Advisor who said it best he said and this was in response to me kind of raising some concerns about the amount of reading that we did he said it's grad school. You read a lot of crap. You know you just read read read read read and in that process you know going and spinning hours in the library. Um. 01:16.94 archpodnet Oh. 01:28.19 Clint Looking at work that had been you know Berkeley has a great library and so looking at you know dissertations theses and you know publications that were you know a product of some anthropological work back in the 60 s and seventy s in Oklahoma with Cherokee people. And learning a lot along that way about our own tribal history. But then the politics within kind of the reestablishment of our constitutional government which you know 7 marked the beginning of the state of Oklahoma the establishment of that state. And of course that was on the heels and in the middle of but on the heels of the daws act the allotment act and you know which was for allent intents and purposes a way to Dis to dissolve tribal nations and break up communal landholdings and privatize property and create a bunch of individuals that you know. 02:07.79 archpodnet A. 02:14.13 archpodnet Right. 02:23.46 Clint Had once been a nation and and like a collective. Um, and so that you know cherokees have ah clearly made it through that but it it had a lot of just profound and devastating repercussions in terms of landholding in terms of. Ah, governance and there was this period of I wouldn't say inaction by any means but there was definitely a period where the the the nation the the government of the Cherokee nation was operating and in kind of this shell of a way that. Had once been as compared to what it once was and it's it's it's been impacted really since that time even even in the present and I talk about this in the book and what later you know it was the dissertation. What later became the book. Um, that you know the the type of government that that we see operating now is. Very different from pre-statehood Cherokee nation and pre-remoal cherokee nation but nonetheless the the ph d work was you know, just that process of okay, let's dig deep into not only our political history going back to you know pre-remoal times. But what what was going on. During the 60 s and seventy s was was really informative to me because I was I was dealing with some of the manifestations of those types of politics with the type of work that I was doing which was you know again at this interface between government the environmental services office and. Later that became the natural resources department and the community so working with knowledge keepers elders those who you know operate from well and a non-bureaucratic way, you know so it doesn't mean that folks. 04:11.52 archpodnet Yeah. 04:14.95 Clint Ah, who embodied that perspective didn't work and with the tribe or work in the tribal government but by nature of the institutionalization of you know governance in a kind of more bureaucratic. You know this apparatus of the the cherokee nation government. Um, it. It created this split between those 2 ways of looking at the world. So all of that is to say that those preliminary questions that I came in with were about that that that that fundamental kind of head scratcher. You know hey we're we're a sovereign nation. We have our own environmental protection agency if you will and yet why is it that I this young you know naive I'll say it. You know a pre-grad student was being asked to you know, take this book. Of you know, ethnobotanical information and and try to translate that into a database that will inform how we do our job in order to accommodate the fact that we need this knowledge reflected in the policies the day-to-day. And so it was a daunting like request but it turned out to be just the kind of the springboard on which you know my future graduate work engaged and um, you know what later became relationships that I established with those knowledge keepers. Formed into a very interesting group that served as kind of this counterbalance and still do and I can say more about them because I continue to work with this group of elders there. Call themselves the Cherokee Nation Medicine keepers we've sustained our work together since 2008 when they formed up into the present and um to see them come about and really again provide this counterbalance to a bureaucratic way of operating and and therefore kind of insert. Or you know, effect change from their own culturally grounded perspective spoke volumes to all this stuff that I've been reading you know like I was mentioning the the anthropologists in the 60 s and the 70 s writing about oh there's this split between the the tribe. Government and the the communities and you know how do you bridge that kind of divide that really has its origins in these colonially imposed frameworks but nonetheless frameworks with with which cherokee people have been working for for quite some time. So anyway. 07:01.77 Clint All that's to say is that it is just kind of a moment in which I was like okay, let's look at this in historical context and let's look at the through line of Cherokee Sovereignty and peoplehood and then let's look at these kind of tensions between. Bureaucratic ways of operating and for lack of a better term cultural ways of operating and find ways to to kind of you know, continue this through line of Cherokee adaptation and modification of state forms to to basically? um. Ah, can ensure the continuance of the people. Regardless so it's not to say that everything's you know hunky dory and there aren't any issues and that there are still aren't tensions between those different realms. But what I had hoped to do through my graduate work is to kind of. You know, really dig deep into what those tensions were why they were happening and continued to happen and how this type of work at the interface between traditional knowledge traditional environmental knowledge and tribal governance. Could you know what it could say about it and how it could you know. Offer some sort of of answers to these these predicaments and and issues and and therefore ways forward. So that's kind of you know what? what became the the research prospectus was you know, kind of trying to think through those intersections. 08:24.32 archpodnet Have. 08:36.10 Clint And you know what ended up you know happening as a result you know through my training was that you know I was I was trying to fit those types of questions and and by extension you know the settler colonialism as a structure. And indigeneity and indigenous sovereignty into political ecology which as ah as a field or some would say a subfield of anthropology and geography hadn't addressed any of those questions you know dealing with indigenous sovereignty and nationhood and settler colonialism and so. You know, really kind of engaging in that way like okay political ecology to me as a set of of questions as an approach to research you know social environmental research was really interesting and that was what I was being trained to to kind of think through the lens of. But again like I said it it wasn't intersecting or it hadn't intersected with indigenous studies at that time and so trying to find those those ways to kind of think through the connections whether you know be on ah a theoretical level as well as a practical level was you know, kind of. Experience as a grad student and I'm still obviously thinking through those questions but the the disc field work kind of helped put that into ah you know, ground them and you know make it more real for me as opposed to the type of high theory that I was reading in Berkeley. 10:10.15 archpodnet Yeah, okay, so for everyone who's listening the book that you reference is roots of our renewal ethnobotany and cherokee environmental governance. So we'll have a link to that in the show notes and I will be ordering it after this episode. So definitely check it out. Um, and the yeah god you you covered so much There's so many things that I could touch on. Um I think this is a ah, really interesting way to use political ecology. Um, so. Looking at the Cherokee nation and you know there's first there's removal um, and obviously that has an ah effect on the way people interact with the environment and then there's the daws act that you're talking about an allotment. Um and the breakup of of that land that they were removed to um and then you know. 10:52.23 Clint 9 no. 11:05.51 Clint Oh. 11:06.44 archpodnet All of these other things that you're talking about. Um so I guess could you talk a little bit about um, like the the relationship of of the Cherokee to. To the land like through all of those phases I Guess not that that's not a gigantic question but like ah you know super super quick and dirty version. 11:34.00 Clint Yeah I'll take a ah stab at it and and before I I say anything more? Um, ah, thanks for plugging the book I want to mention too that if folks are wondering you know how they can contribute. You know we as academics see very little in terms of royalties from our our books. But in this case, the royalties that I do see that go back to the medicine keepers and back to the Cherokee nation to to support continuing that work. So if you want to learn more about that project and that what I just described and help. Contribute go ahead and buy the book. Um, but to your. 12:10.68 archpodnet Awesome. Is there a way that people can donate directly to the project itself. 12:17.99 Clint So yes, we're still working on like making it like super easy. But right now if you go to cherokee nation's website and click on donate. It'll require that you kind of specify or or in in Hopefully there's a notes section but essentially it's the ethnobiology fund if you want to inquire with Cherokee nation and go on their donation site. That's what they know it as and that's through the secretary of natural resources office. so so yeah thanks for asking. 12:51.45 archpodnet Awesome! Yeah, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. 12:56.78 Clint Um, great, great. Um, yeah, so to your question. It is a huge question and it's something I've thought a lot about both in the book and then later and in in other publications about. Relating maintaining relationships to land amid forced relocation amid the dispossession of lands really like right out from under Cherokee people's feet due to the allotment policy. You know that question or that. Ah, statement. You know, relating to land despite all of that has been a huge challenge and it informs a lot of my work including up to the present really just kind of thinking about how cherky people are navigating such a landscape both physically. And you know even just kind of mentally navigating because of the the impacts of you know what went hand in-hand with allotment which was assimilation so you know how to how to deal with not only maintaining relationships to land but maintaining that through the lens of the cherokee language. 14:02.50 archpodnet Okay. 14:13.40 Clint Through the lens of generational teachings whether they be through story or through you know, interpersonal lessons that are out on the land. All of that comes with a huge. 14:14.61 archpodnet A. 14:29.15 Clint Ah, set of obstacles whether they be physical in the form of fences or you know angry landowners. You know, private property that type of thing or whether they be obstacles of you know, just trying to remember the name of a certain plant in our language. Or trying to remember what Grandma said about this plant you know and so that's what we're working toward is to combat all of that to counteract all of that and in concerted ways working you know hand in hand with the medicine keepers and are. Ah, natural resource or secretary of natural resources staff who on a daily basis have to confront this fragmentation of of land as a result of allotment and then is the compounded element of climate change and climate shift. You know we can't take for granted that the limited amount of lands. We've managed to either hang on to or ah reacquire sense allotment in Oklahoma statehood. We can't take for granted that those plants that are supported by them are going to be there despite you know, different. Changes that we see happening whether that be you know higher annual temperatures different you know patterns of flooding and drought and and and then the the constant threat of of. You know fragmentation due to cattle ranching which involves clearing forests and other development activities that are threatening the cultural plants that cherokee people know and so that that all just kind of puts it into this perspective of when you look at and you kind of. Zoom out on our homelands which you know Cherokee people still maintain relationships with our homelands in what is now known as you know western North Carolina yeah basically the Southern Appalachian mountains and so Northern Georgia Eastern Tennessee and Northern Alabama um but of course you know for those who aren't living there and so we have the eastern band another federally recognized Cherokee tribe. But for cherokees living in Oklahoma who are either Cherokee Nation citizens or citizens of the united catua band you know getting back home so to speak getting back to the homelands is is a ah, costly endeavor and so you know what we see what we've seen historically through removal is again when you look at these different landscapes. 16:58.74 archpodnet Um, correct. 17:10.97 Clint And you compare the Southern Appalachians to what is now Northeastern oklahoma there are some significant similarities I mean it's not the same and you know we have to recognize that that those lands are the homelands of of other indigenous peoples osage catdo and quopa. Um, and and others who who still have sacred sites within them and so what this has meant for cherokees and you know it's a complex history. But what it's meant for me is looking at this through the lens of of a relational continuity of a. Um, maintaining indigenous responsibilities and obligations of care. Um to the land despite forced dispossession and displacement and so you know thinking about this in terms of a. Ah, way of relating that is ah in itself a technology if you will and so I'm I'm just kind of playing with this word technology because oftentimes it's meant to you know it's implied that it's it's like through some sort of western scientific means you're solving a problem and. Maybe that results in a a product or a application. So I'm kind of like reframing the word technology to to to emphasize the different types of technologies that we need to think about and learn from today that have more to do with relationality and care. For the land and for you know between each other as human beings. Um, and between human beings and other than human beings. So plant relatives animal relatives the land itself as a way of kind of reframing how we think about solving. Issues that we're confronted with with regard to the climate crisis and so the cherokee story of forced relocation and there's actually ah another story to that too that I'll try not to go on a tangent about but you know before the the trail of tears there were cherokees who migrated. West across the Mississippi River and they came to be known as the old settlers or the the western cherokees but you know with that experience cherokee people were relating to lands west of the Mississippi you know long before the trail of tears and so. We have a sense of relationality with those lands and a sense of connection to them that spans you know generations and that manifests today in really sustaining who we are as cherokees through these land-based practices and we were. 20:03.30 Clint Really hate to use the word fortunate because there's nothing fortunate about being dispossessed from your homelands. Um, but nonetheless that the the plants that we knew in the east some of them not all of them but some of them were present in the western lands in what is now Eastern Oklahoma and 20:06.83 archpodnet Right. 20:22.27 Clint Through that process of still kind of maintaining this land-based way of Life. We've been able to continue some practices like traditional medicine. You know, crafts and food waves that have sustained who we are as Cherokee people in relation to the land and ah and again. Through this lens of like technologies of care or relational continuity as I'm calling it an obligation to caretake lands that may not be the homelands but it's honoring what one of my elders called honoring the spirit of this land. And so it's it's complex because you know we acknowledge that we were relocated there as a product of colonialism and in the process of that you know our osage relatives were. You know, dispossessed of their lands as well. Cato relatives kwapa and and so it's it's this kind of complex history. But at the same time this through line is again the obligation to to honor our relatives on our ancestral teachings of what it means to be. Good human beings and what it means to uphold those reciprocal responsibilities as indigenous people to the Land. So You know that's that's kind of what informs a lot of my ongoing work and and and thinking about that you know, kind of. Broad picture in relation to again the the continual threats the continual continual obstacles that we have to deal with regarding you know the manifestations of of settler colonialism and and settler land policy. 22:15.56 archpodnet Yeah, okay so I want to after the break I Want to dive more into some of those last things that you just said. But for right now we will be right back. 22:15.76 Clint So yeah, yeah. 22:23.24 Clint M.