00:00.26 archpodnet Okay, we are back from our break and okay, you were talking about some different things right? at the end of that last segment and 1 question that it it really made me think of is. Obviously we know that that climate change is ah you know it's not a good thing and it's disproportionately affects indigenous people across the world and um, yeah, not good, but um. 00:27.70 Clint The. 00:36.78 archpodnet On the other hand, you're talking about. You know the the resilience of the Cherokee people and these technologies of care and um relationships etc does that give you some hope in in looking at climate change. 00:48.90 Clint The. 00:55.40 archpodnet Um, maybe maybe compared to the rest of us that maybe don't have those things. Um, ah how do you? How do you see that. 00:59.12 Clint Listen. 01:05.14 Clint Yeah, well, um, ah I mean I can look to a couple of projects that we're doing that are actively working um to ensure that cherokee people have. Lands and places on which to continue these practices and therefore transmit to future generations younger generations and you know see that continuity that that continuance if you will of of who we are as a people and again kind of. As a people but in relation to the land right? Um, and those 2 projects are well they're related and it actually is kind of ah a segue into my current work and which has been. You know, technically since 2 17 the pandemic has really created a huge obstacle in you know the the timeline that we're working within but it's a 5 ive-year project. We've got a 1 ne-year extensions funded through the National Science Foundation and it's supported through a mechanism called the career early career award which by definition or by the nature of the mechanism has to have equal parts ah research and education and so you know this was a opportunity that I saw that i. You know I I knew that I could apply to and would be appropriate for the work we're doing but I you know I went to the medicine keepers and said you know is this something that you see as as you know worthwhile and if so you know how would we envision this and. You know something that they had been talking about for quite some time was you know? Yes, we exist as a group and so you know my book really looks at them as a formation of a again a counterbalance to a heavily bureaucratic tribal government and really. Asserting their voice within the way that decisions get made and you know different policies and um and basically the way that the tribe relates to its land base and and and the reservation as we as we call it today. But um, you know, looking ahead. They were always saying well. You know what we do is is really important. But what is it really doing if we don't have active interactions and and programs with younger generations and so that became the focus of the education component of the and nsf grant proposal. 03:51.42 Clint Which again started in 2017. We spent the first year in workshop and planning mode designing a curriculum for a land education program for cherokee younger people and that process was just. Just awesome. It was ah a way for them to really open up about what they envisioned as the the teachers as the professors if you will of this program but also it opened up a space for them to talk about how it would refuse or would. You know, not privilege the type of western knowledge that was forced down their throats through the boarding school process and so you know many of our elders who are around today also experience or experience that boarding school. Um. Assimilatory method of of education and so actively kind of working to to push back against that was a big topic during our our workshop our workshops for the curriculum development and you know a number of principles arose that served to ground this program. And again, it's it's all thinking about the nature of what it means to learn for cherokee people what it means to teach and learn and what it means to relate and be in good relationship to the land and one another and those principles there are 4 of them one of them in the language is negod. Gust dida da da which means we are all related both you know between each other as human beings but also between human beings and our non-human relatives plants animals and spirits and and and the land itself. The second one is the cherokee word for teach me really translates to shomi so that word is Squeoha Ga and that principle of. Squeohaga teach me or or more accurately show me is kind of implying both 2 things one that learning is non-hierarchical and that learning is experiential. Um, the third principle is in the cherokee language ski nogi goweisal. And that was offered by one of the elders as a way of talking about communalism. So it means if we work together. We'll get something done so celebrating the collective endeavor of the group as well as the individual gifts and and traits that that everyone brings to the table. 06:40.60 Clint In that process and the fourth principle is alihe legi dosti which means enjoyment or pleasure having fun and I say that is like the most important of all the principles I mean they're all important but the value of you know, getting people together. And joy and in in in pleasure and and just kind of generally being happy on the land is is is a a radical act for indigenous people who have been dispossessed over and again and you know forcibly. Told to assimilate. Um, but also just because that joy produces so much well-being and conversations and free-flowing you know stories and you know like knowledge sharing. And and just that principal alone has made all the difference in this program which has gone on to recruit 5 cherokee students in the cohort and it was designed as a 3 hree-year pilot program of course as I said the pandemic really. Through a wrench in that timeline but nonetheless it's been a way for this cohort to really know the medicine keepers and therefore kind of gain a training in traditional knowledge as well as you know where we work. Hand in hand with the secretary of natural resources office and so they get an some insight from our tribal cultural biologists on the programs that they're working with within the tribe and also the kind of policy issues that come up so dealing with. Fractionated lands checkerboarded lands as a result of the allotment policy. They're actively working to inform the cherokee nations conservation land conservation strategy and so so that program and I and I have to mention the research component too because that's. The the other half of the grant and the research component is that they are essentially research assistants and we work together with 3 different rural cherokee communities and within our reservation to really ask these questions about how Cherokee people are navigating. Such landscapes and so it's kind of this issue of despite all these obstacles and the compounded influence or effects of climate change. How are cherokee people continuing to be resilient and continuing to. 09:28.22 Clint Ah, live these ways of life. These land-based ways of life and what what? what can that say or how can that inform again feeding back into tribal conservation policy. So basically like how the tribe can strategically target areas to conserve that can be locally. Managed and taken care of from each of those community's perspectives and you know how how that can inform kind of this broader plan if you will that connects the importance of you know our sovereignty our language. And most well I wouldn't say most importantly, but centrally you know the land on which we practice all of the above and and the land that informs all of the above. So so looking at that project and we're also funded generously through the Indian Land Tenure Foundation for the land education program. What that has resulted in and through the the work of the medicine keepers and the student cohort are some really I think hopeful certainly exciting and forward looking. Initiatives and endeavors that are both internal so internal to our reservation in our tribe but also that expand beyond and and into partnerships with federal agencies like the national park service. Um on an internal level the medicine keepers and i. And I'm going to go off on a little tangent here but the medicine keeps and I did a project back in 152 that was a photo voice project and through that and essentially what a photo voice project is is that you have ah a group or a community group. With a defined kind of set of themes or or a couple of concepts that serve as the guiding theme in this case, the group was the medicine keepers and the themes were land and health and you give them cameras and and. Say you know, go out and take pictures and within a certain amount of time I think this was 3 to five weeks and take pictures of of of you know places anything that kind of connects those dots for you and then you reconvene. Both individually and as a group to talk about the individual photographs and what we did as a product of the photo voice project was we put together a 30 minute still image video and that's actually available on Youtube with the the elder's blessing. 12:11.56 Clint So everyone can go and check it out. It's called cherokee voices for the land and what that video did was it inspired the creation of legislation from our tribal councilors to develop a conservation act if you will I don't remember the exact title but it enabled. Ah, current tribal trust lands to be put into conservation status for traditional use only and most recently so I guess year ago. So that's March Twenty Twenty One the Cherokee nation signed that act into law. And we saw the creation of the tribe's first conservation tract in eastern adar county which borders the Arkansas boundary and that's the place where the elders the medicine keepers and the students the the cohort practice and and enact. Ah you know. Carry out this educational program. So that's significant and then the other kind of more external or kind of outward looking goal if you will has been a gathering agreement with Buffalo National River in Northern Arkansas and that is a product of the recent. Oh are you. 13:18.94 archpodnet There sorry. 13:28.60 Clint Ah, we good. Thanks. 13:29.27 archpodnet We're good I was looking up your Youtube cherokee voices for the land and it started playing was like ah sorry. 13:33.31 Clint Ah, oh no, Ah, that's okay I actually didn't hear it but I heard you go? Ah um, yeah, um. 13:43.64 archpodnet But that's good. Well now I have it for the show notes at least. 13:52.75 archpodnet Sorry yes, yes. 13:53.30 Clint You want me to go back and I think I was talking about the national park service. Okay, let's see. Yeah, so let me get my bearings here for the the editor. Um, so yeah, looking. Ah, you know looking outward or kind of more externally from our reservation lands where we're we're working with the national park service and we recently back in March of 2021 signed an agreement gathering agreement plant gathering agreement with the buffalo national river which is in. Northern Arkansas and so you know we think about the significance of that and really the strategy of that as being seeing the impacts that climate shift climate change is having on the lands that we have some you know modicum of control over. 14:47.58 archpodnet Are. 14:49.66 Clint You know within the the reservation area in Northeastern Oklahoma and then to the point that I made previously that we have no guarantee that the plants that reside within those boundaries of our checkerboarded you know landscape of tribal trust lands. Are going to stay put or going to survive the the impacts of what is becoming more and more you know threats due to climate change and so looking to the east and seeing you know aside from the ambitious kind of. 15:27.69 Clint Aspirational goal of reclaiming our homelands in the southeast how can we you know confront these changes these inevitable changes that are are closer to us where cherokee people most cherokee people reside today and so. Looking to the east we see buffalo national river as ah you know it it definitely has its complications when you get into the history of conservation and the establishment of parks and the United States but you know aside from the. Model being imperfect that what what happened I think it was around 2014 the National Park Service issued a ah rule in the federal register that allowed for the the establishment of gathering agreements between tribes and individual parks and the tribes had to speak to you know their. Historical connections ancestral connections to those lands and so we see again I mentioned earlier in our conversation. The migration of cherokee people before the trail of tears so before eighteen thirty eight eighteen thirty nine and if you look back. You know cherokee people were in that part of what is now Arkansas for quite some time and in fact, there are treaty lands historical treaty lands that you look at the map of the treaty lands and the map of the present day Buffalo national river and and you know they're they're right on top of 1 another. 16:59.73 archpodnet Can. 17:02.37 Clint And that was the treaty of 1817 which was since what do you call? it. It was since nullified I guess is is one way to put it and of course that was on the heels of. Trail of tears in which cherokee people were moved to what what is now? Oklahoma but at that time was simply the Cherokee nation or indian territory but nonetheless what I'm getting at is that Cherokee people have relationships with those lands and we've been able to establish that agreement through the work of the medicine keepers who have. Lent their expertise to develop something that would enable cherokee people you know far into the future to go and gather within the park boundaries and therefore kind of create this. You know what you could see as like a um. Cultural ecocultural and insurance policy you know because again despite the dark history of the park service and and the establishment of parks. There's this sense of what surrounds buffalo national river are you know, farmlands and areas in which. People have similar to to Oklahoma cleared lands for cattle grazing and and different other other different agricultural purposes and you know even though native people were blocked out of the park. You still have this level of protection if you will and so it's like this. Strange kind of situation in which the park is you know on the 1 hand has a dark history on the other hand. It's like okay we can work with this agency to to reconnect to this place in ways that acknowledges that people are a part of. Environment and and shouldn't be separated and and especially when it comes to to native practices of of gathering that typically have just foundational principles of sustainability and reciprocity and so the gathering agreement allows for that as well as. Cherokee input on the the caretaking of those lands and so you know the management if you will and so that happened and also in goodness March Twenty you know March 2020 and so it's been a couple years. We've been wanting to go back and. Do the inaugural gathering but of course covid has impacted that we're looking toward a future date. Maybe this fall in terms of bringing the elders back with the students and enacting that first gathering activity or gathering event. 19:48.88 Clint And then talking about the significance of that agreement for our group and and and Beyond and you know other cherokees who who would wish to to go and gather there in a sustainable way and and relate to those lands once again, so those are a couple of projects that really think. I Think about when I think about okay looking toward the Future. What what gives me hope what provides a sense of optimism despite all the challenges that we see coming down the pike with climate change and you know ongoing threats due to capitalist extraction and and. You know settler colonial pressures you know and politics that that would otherwise like to see all of what I just said you know be be discontinued or eradicated. 20:39.91 archpodnet So we're coming up at the end of our time but I did want to see if there was anything else that you really wanted to share with our listeners any points that um you know like if you had a soapbox of of the 1 thing that you would want somebody to to come away with. 20:56.80 Clint Who. 20:59.88 archpodnet Um, anything like that that that you wanted in this this last little bit to share with our audience. 21:06.69 Clint Sure, Um, yeah, a soapbox. Well I would say you know what's on my mind a lot is is thinking about how we can um, look at the movement. The the larger movement of Land back. Through this lens of of of of both aspiration. But also you know putting it in practice and seeing how there's a lot of different paths to that common or shared goal and so you know what's on my mind in terms of that. 21:41.12 archpodnet And to to cut you off there I'm not sure if all of our listeners know about the land back movement. So could you explain what that is. 21:45.54 Clint Ah, yeah, ah oh provide a little context. Yeah, um. 21:56.68 archpodnet Yes, perfect exactly. 22:02.44 Clint Yeah, so I mean I always describe it as a movement that is you know centuries long. But only recently in the form of a Hashtag um, and it's what I love about it is it's provocative moniker of just simply. The return of of native lands to native people the rematriation of lands generally and and you know the the provocative nature of land back is that it doesn't answer in. Its you know in the in the hashtag it doesn't answer how it just. It. It is a it is an assertion. It's a statement of of what and the how is something that we all need to figure out together and that settler communities need to have serious conversations about include and that include. Native nations native communities in that process and so again, the provocative nature of a nature of it is essentially the return of lands to native people the the process of it is it can look a number of different ways. And it can be a matter of regaining access to lands that native people have been dispossessed from a colleague of mine wrote a book. Her name's Beth Rose Middleton wrote a book called trust in the land which explores the the use of. Excuse me tribal land trusts and conservation cultural conservation easements in order for tribes to regain access to sacred sites to gathering areas to areas in which they have been their relationships have been severed over time and so. Ah, highly recommend that folks check that book out. Um, but when we think of that movement the land back movement. Broadly you know what are the the pathways multiple pathways that we can arrive at that that same that shared goal and. In in the way that I think about it. It's you know, understanding that there are those aspirational goals but there are also the the kind of day-to-day everyday acts that kind of move us toward that goal. Um, and we see that manifest in. Things that you know I've mentioned before with with the work of the medicine keepers. You know, thinking working with the national park service but we can also see it as as kind of opening up conversations about and this has happened a lot. We've we've done over the course of the pandemic. 24:51.63 Clint Students and I have presented together about excuse me about our work and we've had people come to us and whether it's in the q and a or following up over email express that you know they have land you know in ah in Oklahoma and are. You know, inquiring as to kind of how can we work with your program. How can we work with the medicine keepers with Cherokee nation to allow for that you know that land back to happen and that's been kind of the the inspirational part of the work that we do is that the more and. Ah, we we have this conversation the more we hear from people about the work that we're doing and how they want to contribute in whatever form that it becomes an and an open conversation about trying to figure this out together and you know I'll just say that that's where a lot of. You know my hope resides is that you know it's it's not a a forgetting of history or ah or of you know disregarding what has happened in the past because you know ah as indigenous people will never forget. Those types of atrocities that have been committed against us and committed against the land. But we also acknowledge that we're going to have to work together to to resolve I wouldn't say resolve but to address. That history in ways that allows for the return of of caretaking responsibilities and oversight that indigenous people have to the land and I guess that's a good note for me to end on is that when we think about land back a lot of people might. View that or or read that in a way that implies like repossession and you know that's a part of the picture for sure you know title to lands is going to also convey the the caretaking. Oversight if you will. But I think Leann Simpson an ashnabi scholar said this or wrote this somewhere but the opposite of dispossession is not necessarily possession and so the land back movement for me at least implies much more than just the return of of title. The return of property. It's kind of a reraming of the property conversation and what quote unquote management land management means and it's the return of you know the ethics and the the frameworks that. 27:42.85 Clint Indigenous peoples have that speak to what it means to be a good human being a good um a part of creation. A good part of the land that is the significant part of land back for me and so you know I look at our work holistically as something that is enacting this and that is enacting. All kinds of things back and some of some of you out. There may have seen that t-shirt or that poster that says you know all of these things back like language back um culture back. You know religion back. Relationships back and then land back and I think that's a really effective way of you know, showing how the land back movement is about so much more than just private property. 28:30.19 archpodnet Um, yeah, all right? Well I could interview interview you for for many more hours. But unfortunately we are at our time. Um, but thank you so much for for coming on and. Um I hope that we we get to have you on again sometime to talk about. Um, you know your your more recent work and and what the results were with the students and all of those good things. Um, and just thank you again so much for for taking the time to come on today. 29:05.50 Clint Awesome, yeah, it would it would be great. It's been wonderful speaking with you Jessica and and thanks to you for putting this together and and all the listeners out there. So what? No thank you.