00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode one forty two of a life and ruins podcast wein investigatste where we investigate the careers and research of those living life and ruins I'm your host Carlton Gover I'm joined by my co-host Connor John and David will probably end up joining us. Ah, he's taken a little nappy poo at the moment. Probably slept through his alarm clock as is tradition and so ah, what we decided we're going to continue on and he'll just you know, casually insert himself halfway through the interview as also as for tradition tradition but um, we want to apologize for taking a break I know we started off by saying we're back in business. 00:18.57 connor I Has this tradition. So. 00:35.62 archpodnet And then ah life life slapped us in the face with other other things going on once once again, but we are back to continue on our series on Theory and American anthropology. 00:49.75 connor Yeah, we so we finished the last time talking about boasz and getting to boa and that fun little journey and we are gonna now take the next step and talk about basically the students of Boaz so moving on there. 01:05.42 archpodnet Absolutely and just a quick recap Franz Uri Boaz a german american anthropologist father of american anthropology of the papa boas. Yep so he's he's kind of the guy all all of our anthropological lineages in some way shape or form. 01:17.28 connor Papa Boas as as known. 01:25.28 archpodnet Hit boaz a couple couple generations ago. So that's kind of his background which we talked more on in the last episode but he sets himself up at Columbia University ah in 1899 so right at the turn of the twentieth century and he had some pretty significant students who kind of go on to if Franz is like Grandaddy Boaz of anthropology he creates like 4 students. Like kind of lead each subfield like that kind of grasp on to this 4 fields approach and each one of them kind of takes the mantle further subfield. 02:07.20 connor Yeah, yeah, and um, so and boez is kind of continues on and his students continue on in this kind of reaction to the times and really starting to change and radically change the thoughts on Anthropology. So a lot of these character or a lot of these students have strong and and unique opinions opinions and theories that ah kind of come out of this Era. So. It's a continuation of this Boazian reaction to racism and things like that. 02:40.16 archpodnet Yes, um, guess who texted us you said he was passed out. Oh he's come of it. He's on his way ladies don't looks to he we could. We could get ahead who could get in here before ah before David Bumble fucks his way into the episode. Um, so there's there's 4 students that we. 02:41.11 connor Guess who texted. 02:49.61 connor Ah, so. 02:54.58 connor We fast noise in there at least. 02:57.94 archpodnet Yeah, there's like 4 students we want to talk about Margaret Mead Edward Seirer Ruth Benedict and Alfred Kroeber um Maggie Mead is definitely out of the 4 probably the most well-known um mags. 02:59.69 connor Look. 03:14.68 connor Mags mags we need says they yeah. 03:17.31 archpodnet Mags Maggie Mead so kind of the champion of cultural anthropo of cultural anthropology. Um, and she only. 03:26.98 connor You could say her and Benedict are the the kind of progenitors of cultural anthropology out of these 4 03:35.18 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, some Margaret and Ruth are kind of the big. They're the cultural anthropologists out of the group more. So um, so she did a lot of her field work in Oceana specifically some samoa. Um. 03:39.39 connor Yeah, yeah. 03:50.87 archpodnet And before we she was kind of controversial especially after death but she was the ah was she the first president of the American Anthropological Association I won't either. But. 04:01.18 connor I Um I would not be surprised. 04:05.90 archpodnet She's in the us national academy of sciences like she did a bunch of stuff but her big work here that she contributes to right? So like Boaz puts forth historical particularism so that you need to study the culture and the context in which it was created. All cultures are equal. We need to stop this ranking bullshit that other folks are trying to do but we have to study a culture in its in its context. Um, she takes that she being Margaret Mead um and you know one of her most famous. 04:40.26 archpodnet Pieces of work is coming of age in Samoa. Um, so she did e she did ethnography lived with samoans at over several field seasons. Um a number of her part. 04:54.33 connor And I think as and you described her as um, her personality and her fieldwork is kind of the beginning a beginning wave of like feminism right? Would you say is like it's like the it's a focus on women and. 05:04.54 archpodnet Yeah. 05:11.56 connor Their role within cultures more so than we've probably seen in the past. 05:17.10 archpodnet Absolutely so she publishes in 1935 sex and temperament in 3 primitive societies. Don't like the word primitive it we we've passed that ah hopefully kind of um and and which in this she's she's working with a very particular group in Samoa and in this. Ah, piece she claims that females are dominant to the men in this society There are some issues that she kind of describes like most samoans this is how it is in their culture and this is the difference between an ethnography and ethnology where an ethnography is a study of 1 particular group. And and and an ethnology is the combination of multiple ethnographies into a study so she's doing a lot of ethnographic research doing a lot of ethnography. It's not till after her death and there's some controversy that goes on that someone's like no no, no no and did an ethnology together and. Compared Margaret's work with other people's work that says no she was she was right. There were some instances where she did go a little bit overboard, but what Connor's talking about is she's working in these with these groups that show that like women aren't naturally inferior to men that it's a cultural thing. This was a huge shock. To american judeo-christian women and other people in the west. So like she's bringing out and and very similar to at the turn of like that we talked about last episode the age of enlightenment where. 06:29.42 connor Yeah. 06:39.96 archpodnet Folks are going out across the world and and finding cultures coming into contact with cultures that are radically different than their own bringing them back to their home country and it kind of stirs things up and this is what's kind of going on in a repeat cycle where anthropologists are going out setting. This culture is bringing this information back to this west exposing the west to this kind of information. And so a lot of her work in the 30 s and 40 s is kind of the groundwork for the feminist movement that comes in the sixty s and seventy s um so really awesome word. 07:05.22 connor Yeah, it. Yeah and she focuses and by highlighting the role of women the role of development the role of intimacies between husband and wife this really. Changes are kind of our theoretical understanding or at least focus in anthropology and David came in at the perfect time hi David. Okay, um. 07:32.64 archpodnet Hi David. 07:39.29 connor But yeah, so her focus definitely on psychological theory and stuff like that is definitely informs and focuses kind of what she's studying but like Carlton's at and and we've mentioned before this there is this is. Her work and the work of all anthropologists probably in the nineteen hundreds isn't without controversy I don't think you could say I don't think you could say anyone who is doing um ethnographic field work in the nineteen hundreds was without some sort of asterisk or. 08:05.33 archpodnet Yes. 08:17.57 connor Something going on that not Mars but it it is something that's not perfect I would say. 08:25.33 archpodnet Absolutely um, yeah, and and Margaret especially like Margaret was controversial in her time for her behavior outside of academia but today she would be considered just another modern woman like she. 08:42.71 archpodnet Multiple divorces like enjoyed her time doing what she wanted and wasn't constrained by like american norms of women during the 30 s and twenty s but her behavior is completely acceptable today. Um, so she was very much kind of ahead of her time in realizing. 09:01.65 archpodnet That Ah, the the social construct of American culture I guess I mean great work if you'd like highly recommend like it's foundational for modern cultural anthropology. We've built upon the work of of course. But um. 09:08.20 connor Yeah, um. 09:17.61 connor Especially stuff that has any sort of psychological theory or later stuff is definitely built and building off of that. 09:19.87 archpodnet Yeah, hurt. 09:28.20 archpodnet Yeah, and like the controversies didn't appear till after her death and so like a lot of this stuff happened in like the 90 s is when a lot of these articles were trying to like shame her but a lot of folks like no, you're being a dick. Um, you know like you're you're going after her way too hard. Yeah. 09:33.58 connor Yeah, yeah. 09:45.53 connor On. 09:45.70 archpodnet But she was just one of 4 Do we will talk about ahir real quick. 09:53.70 connor Yeah I think he's an interesting one. We can drop jump into ah linguisticing anthropology so Edwards appearer um, you've heard his name but you probably won't recognize it associated with the sir wharf hypothesis. 09:57.72 archpodnet Yeah. 10:10.45 connor Ah, talking about the relationship between language and culture. Um, he is also a student of Boaz I will look up exactly where he went to school. We would okay. 10:19.25 archpodnet It was also at Columbia so they all, um, so all these students went to ah to Columbia under under Boaz andirre so like the difference between linguistic anthropology and linguistics. Linguistics is the study of language for linguistic anthropology. The study of how language affects culture. So the superior wharf hypothesis which is where a joint hypothesis by Edward Sepier and um, a person by the last name of wharf and who's last name like. Absolutely eludes me all of a sudden. Um, and so it made a brief appearance like they they name dropped the wharf's superior hypothesis in benley wharf in in a in a arrival and that's kind of like the. 10:53.91 connor Yeah I don't. 11:03.64 connor Benley Wharf Ben Benjamin yeah 11:10.65 archpodnet Crux of that movie is like learning that language and how circular it is allowed her to travel back in time. Yeah, kind of kind of little ridiculous. Um, but warlingguistic anthropologists did a lot of work on North American Indian languages especially in California he worked with ishi which is one of those big. 11:23.29 connor Oh. 11:29.12 archpodnet Ah, living time capsules I guess is the best way to describe Ishi We've talked about him before on the podcast. Um, so he's kind of really the father of of linguistic anthropology. So a lot of the stuff that he did um. 11:47.49 archpodnet Foundational for linguistic anthropology today and really speak and and kind of on american indian languages and the classification of and indigenous languages of America is is the big one. So he's the one that really helped guide the language groups and families and they're still being worked on today but he was really the one. In order to do that right? like there's over 500 recognized tribes in the United States alone but to be able to call all that information and to been with a team to figure out which ones are similar enough and develop language families is a colossal fucking task. 12:17.11 connor Absolutely absolutely. Yeah, yeah, so at least beginning that task and beginning that process is a huge step for linguistic anthropology at least for understanding of cultures and and languages in North america so that's that's where you see your boy. Disappear and ah, we guys be defining the superior heart war hypothesis just is that language and culture language affects culture right? and culture affects language and and there's a relationship between the 2. 12:52.75 archpodnet Yes I agree. 12:55.89 connor I think that's that's the basics of it. Okay, um, so he did some cool stuff I do want to do Kroeber while we're here because I know kroeber worked with each. Yeah. 13:03.94 archpodnet Yeah, let's look. Let's do some groger. So also another cultural anthropologist under frans at Columbia all these folks were really talking. These people were born late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds and died midway through the century. 13:06.77 David Howe We can do some curing. 13:22.28 archpodnet You know this is the kind of time frameme that we're talking about here. Um, you know kroebers from hoboke in New Jersey um and he did a lot of his career at California like a lot of these folks like get their degree columbia and they they so where is Columbia Chris edit this out. 13:41.10 David Howe New York city 13:41.60 archpodnet Okay, that's what I thought so a lot of these folks get trained at Columbia like in the East Coast and they end up working in in California for some reason another? um but he was also pretty big into archeology. So even though he's like primarily a cultural anthropologist. He was also an archeologist and also dabbled in linguistics like a lot of those early folks were forefields. 13:54.10 David Howe Are. 14:00.45 archpodnet Anthropologists um, and really trying to use culture anthropology and into these other um subdeals. Um, he did the handbook of indians of California that was a big one. Um. And he his big thing is the development of a culture area. So this is where we get the idea of like southwest archeology. Great plains archeology and the subfield so that was kind of his big like his contribution is recognize that there are these cultural areas that are bounded by material culture which is pottery styles. Projectile point typology settlement patterns. So he's the one that was able to kind of identify those relationships now a lot of these things are geographically bounded at times but there are definitely exceptions to that rule so that really his big idea. So like all the different you know we have southeast archeology conference midwest. 14:43.90 connor Yeah, yeah. 14:54.58 archpodnet A lot of that kind of stems from his early work in these culture area approach is. 15:02.29 connor And that's it's kind of building off the the bo asian idea that you need to study cultures in their areas. So the proximity matters and you have similar cultures that occur in the past and um, you can you can draw not hard boundaries but soft boundaries along along a lot of these places. So that's something that this culture area concept continues in archeology and is still used today and is still mentioned today. Although we understand and acknowledge that the boundaries are not real their constructions and things are very fluid through time and space so he he sets us on that path and we still. Generally call things and describe regions in a way based on the kroeber culture area but we have certainly expanded upon and ah are more complex in how we understand people in the past. 15:55.20 archpodnet And then the last major student is um Ruth Benedict once again more definitely more firmly rooted in culture anthropology but also more also in folklore. 16:09.85 connor I Just saw that didn't you didn't you write a sweet meme about how folklorists are ah. 16:11.49 archpodnet I don't I don't get folklore folklore seems cool. It just but I like we're getting to know folklores. It just looks like lazy anthropology or history. It's like if you don't want to do the real work. You go to folklore where it's like but it's mostly this folklore. Can be cool, but it's also I don't know it kind of comes off as degrading because folklorists work in like european fairy tales like Cinderella and stuff like that and then they try to bring that kind of research to American Indian like mythologies and it's like stay in your fucking lane and don't equate our shit with. derella or snow white like you don't have the training to do that like you're gonna just you being a folkloreist going in and like treating our stuff like folklores is demeaning ah but they also do stuff like out here in appalachia with like rural communities and like I don't know but I also don't know much about folklore come at me with your hate I don't. 16:46.85 connor Stories. Yeah. 16:56.99 connor Um. 17:05.65 archpodnet I don't care prove to up. Ah I thought we were supposed to dm it's Derek Anderson all of our hate goes to Derek Anderson no not David there's someone that Shane kept talking about it's like. 17:06.98 connor Dm Carlton don't Dm the podcast because ah dm carlton directly. But yeah I mean ah Derek a dek g. 17:19.94 David Howe Dark t derek t anderson t stands for tyrannical Tyler. 17:24.24 archpodnet Yeah. 17:28.75 archpodnet Ah, okay. 17:30.86 connor Now. Okay, um so Ruth Ruth focuses on the relationship between the individual and society and ah. 17:31.80 David Howe By the way I'm back I just couldn't get my microphone to work for the past ten minutes so yeah 17:34.16 archpodnet Oh you're totally fine. Um. 17:45.40 connor Kind of this interplay between them and culture identity and how Beliefs Govern Culture's Behavior. So It's It's this kind of really complex relationship that she's studying ah that I don't think anyone's really tried to talk to talk about before because there is a relationship between the individual and culture. And a group culture. So it's It's pretty revolutionary. 18:06.92 archpodnet Yeah, great friends with Margaret mead they were close her Ruth's big work was patterns of culture in which kind of like ascribes culture like an individual It's kind of a personality is what a culture is like it's a group of individuals personalities and. It's a consistent pattern of thought like really cool stuff. Um, definitely delves very much into cultural relativism um works also did work in New Guinea with ah Maggie Mead worked primarily New Mexico pacific northwest pueblon kind of stuff so she did them. 18:31.70 connor For sure. 18:41.80 connor So you go to either go to California or you go to the the southeast asia if you're a krober student that I think that's your 2 options or you're a bo as student certain. 18:44.00 archpodnet That. 18:50.30 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely and then um, so ah, if you've kind of noticed we haven't hit a bio biological Anthropologist What this time of been physical anthropology and that's that's primarily because even though they're pushing this forefields approach. Bioanthropology is still very much dominated that that and they're mostly like physicians you actually have to have a medical degree. So. It's a lot of doctors and physicians who are practiced because they know the Skeleton like they have the anatomy and they're kind of like doing anthropology as ah as a side project. 19:12.82 David Howe Ah, dicey subject at the time. 19:19.77 David Howe Um. 19:25.31 archpodnet And in America it's like a lot of cradial morphology like it's a lot of like race science. So the other 3 fields are like trying to be like cultural relativ is it and the bioeththologists are like and this is why black folks need to drink from a water fountain. Their nasal cavities too. But just like making shit up. It's not great. 19:39.22 connor Yeah, yeah, phrenology is the lay lay of the land. 19:43.62 David Howe Never heard that one. But. 19:44.80 archpodnet Yeah, it's just like goofy stuff and it um like my favorite scene of that whole of well one of my favorite scene jango unchained is when Mr Kennedy is like talk has the skull of 1 of his former enslaved individuals and shows because this the skull is shaped this way. He's an idiot and breaks the skull and um. The dude played by what's his face. No not dear, not Leo. Um, no and another bounty hunter. Yes. 20:09.95 David Howe Leo dear. 20:11.80 connor Samuel Jackson or oh crystal faults. 20:16.40 David Howe Oh at Christopph waltz. 20:18.54 archpodnet When he comes back and he's like you know, Mr can't like is the whole idea of the plantation. It's based off of 3 Musketteers he's like you know the guy that wrote 3 musttic 3 musketteers your favorite book what this whole plantation is based off of the dude was black. You're a fucking moron and then proceeds to shoot him. You know that's essentially phrenology and cranial morphology in the crox. It's just It's not to say that there's biological conquest kind of consequences of morphology of some things but culturally doesn't affect much like brain size doesn't affect intelligence. Yeah. 20:49.14 connor Yeah, but that's that was the perrailing thought at the time and these these students of Boaz are like yeah nah fuck that and are actively fighting against it. But you know we'll say that the the bio ant or the physical ant folks. You know, come around. It takes you know Nazi Germany to really get them ah focused and back on to studying humans in a in a nicer way. 21:14.41 archpodnet Most of the time still dealing with them. 21:17.15 David Howe Yeah, and I think did you guys mention that we recorded this before it didn't work. No what doesn't matter last time we we did that I brought up this point I wasn't sure if you guys did it again here but the like. 21:21.44 connor No. 21:22.13 archpodnet No. 21:35.27 David Howe In the 30 s and before that in Germany like a lot of scientists had defected and came to the states um or to you know England or elsewhere a lot of europeans went down to South America that's different story they had like there was some prevailing science overseas that wasn't you know. The best and like a lot of them came over here and boas obviously being a jewish german himself came over here and was like you know taking calipers and measuring people's skulls wasn't the greatest kind of science and he he kind of saw that and so but I think he also did some cranial metric stuff too in the in the beginning. 22:12.36 archpodnet I think yeah, but he came out out here in like the late 18 hundreds like really before the third right really popped off. 22:13.57 David Howe But I don't think it was to drive like race type. Um so I can't remember if beau as did or didn't he has something to do with it. 22:23.14 David Howe Yeah, well, that's about when a lot of people started to coming if they had the money to I guess is or I'm going with that but like later on like Oppenheimer and all those people started leaving like you know at the yeah like when shit was hit in the fan. But. 22:33.70 archpodnet Yeah. 22:33.23 connor Yeah. 22:41.72 David Howe Point being a lot of scientists came over here and Boaz like in the late 18 hundreds was one of those which is why? um, did we talk I think I sorry I keep thinking I did this in the last time I also just woke up. Sorry but the boaz is coming on like the huge tail end of the darwinian synthesis as well. Um, which is why like you know we have this new found way of looking at science because you have the enlightenment and then that kind of pushes towards yada yada and then Darwin comes around and we have this o pushing towards evolutionism and things in in science and a lot of. 23:11.75 connor Are. 23:17.97 David Howe Like the cultural evolutionism at the time was not that was also a predominant thought among anthropologists. But Boas being like well we shouldn't look at everything this way and that's where he kind of was profound in saying like cultures don't evolve the same way though like there is evolution like affecting humanity in many ways. 23:33.18 archpodnet Yeah. 23:33.42 connor And it's not youlineial. It's you know it's different ways. So I think on that note, we're going to come back in the second segment and we'll dive into more specifically archeology. Um in the early twentieth century. 23:37.96 David Howe Yeah.