00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode one forty three of a life ruins podcast we investigatste the crus and research of those living a life in ruins I'm your host Carlton Gover and today we are trying a new a new format for the show. It's just be today. No guests just Carlton David's not here. Think he's set in sail on see a thieves and Connor is doing connor things in Wyoming somewhere and I was really inspired by The Pseudo Archeology Podcast Hosted by ah Dr Andrew Kinkello I like his format where he just kind of sits there. And talks to the audience for like 30 minutes we're going to try to talk to you I'm I'm going to try to talk to you guys for for an hour. Um and see if this is something that you guys our listeners guys gal apache attack helicopters enjoy. So I really I wanted to talk to you everybody about about 3 things here. And this is what we're gonna cover. We're gonna talk about peeping of the Americas then we're going to hit up the Preclobus versus clobus debate and ah then we're going to round this out with with some overkill hypothesis like what happened. To the pleistocene megafauna. So those are gonna be our 3 topics today because we you allll listen to Connor and David the other day anytime I'm not on the show. You know they talk about things that they know get me wound up. Um, and then we got some feedback because people were confused so I'm I'm just going to present what I think. 01:31.48 archpodnet About people in the americas precolobus versus clovis and overkill hypothesis megafauna extinctions right? So this is coming from a couple things right? I have the same paleoian masters background that David and Connor have like we went to took the same classes. We went to the same department. Um, I still do paleoindian archeology I'm working on a Jones Miller which is a hell gap aged um bison butchering site out in Colorado there's at least 200 by antiquus um, so still have that going on. Helping some folks up at Wyoming with the Colby mammoth kill and so like I'm still very much engaged in paleo indian archaeology even though I haven't it's not my main focus. It just keeps bringing me back and then addition to like I've worked at the same sites. Connor and David Hath like I haven't done laprele but I've done um, um, rock shelter and i. Worked a hell gap for two summers and one was which is a crew chief like I'm pretty I'm very familiar with paleo indian archaeology and that was like what I was hired to do at Denver Museum Of Nature And Science so even though like focus on planes towns and the transition from the mesolithic to the neolithic I still have that that deep background and. An appreciation for palem and archeology. Um, and the reason why kind of stay away from it is for some of these topics that we're going to head into like some of the more pervasive themes that are just kind of still withheld within the field. So like I want to let's talk about peopleing in Americas first. Okay, so this really all stems from. 03:00.52 archpodnet Questions of antiquity of the earth right? So we were talking about theory in these past couple episodes and really during the age of enlightenment in the Nineteenth century. You know, like we said we've had the principles of geology by Charles Lall that's that's from like 18 30 18 30 three in which he demonstrates the principles of unior mater and st stratigraphy. Um, this determines the age of fossil remains by the stratum. They occupy below the earth meaning like the stratum being the the Geo Geologic layers right? So the youngest fossils are above the oldest fossils in in the dirt right? We all know this I think of a 3 layeryered cake. Dinosaurs at the bottom um, in the middle you have a place to see megafauna at the top you have like plastics and humans right? like I mean that's just a very quick example then we also have origin of species by Charles Darwin 59 and this is the theory of natural selection right? like this isn't the theory of evolution. This is a component of evolution. It is the theory of natural selection. Um, he does not you know Charles Darwin doesn't mention the word evolution at all in the early editions of of theory of natural selection so he didn't coin the term um but around this same time. We have some fossil discoveries in the some valley in men mencha court minute Menacor Menaccot France I I don't speak french I'm sorry I have no idea what to tell you guys here? Um, so you know the did jaque. 04:31.80 archpodnet You know this is done by Jacques Bo share de perth I buttchering the hell out of that name but you know we can either consider im an antiquatorium or or an amateur archaeologist right? Like at this point in time. It's like which term do you want to go with I think for this instance, he does good enough work. We can call him an ampphiture archaeologist. Sorry to set a sip a sip of Dr Pepper there um so he's an amateur archaeologist right? He's french he's working in the psalm and he publishes the antique. 05:03.13 archpodnet So lateique I have no idea how to it's like antique celtique at antite de viionnnas I have no idea. Um and what? what? what his book does in eighteen forty seven like forget the french name of the book. Um, he proposes the antiquity of people in Europe but as far back as the ice age and this is done from these excavations in the Soam Valley in which they're finding by faces flakes and the remains of extinct Pleistocene Megafauna found in context with one another which have butchering marks so they find this discovery. Of of once again, placece megafauna they're extinct. They're no longer around and they're also finding stone tools like that are legit. We're not talking c seruta here. We're talking like legit buy faces. These are finished tools. No doubt about it. People made these in context with plycene megafauna now even though this book came out. He wasn't it wasn't totally validated. It was validated. Um, when ah John Lubbock published his book prehistoric times which is also what introduced the term paleolithic into the. Into the literature. Okay, so we know it this time. It's kind of becoming accepted. We have the principles of geology which set up the order the relative chronology of extinct animals. We have Charles Darwin with natural selection. 06:34.98 archpodnet Have these discoveries in the song now what about in the Americas and that's you know we've we've talked about it a little bit in the podcast already. You know I haven't been able to go in my full rant until until now you guys are listening to it and this question of how long people have in the Americas has been. Asked since America's um, um Europe Europe europeans First arrived in the western hemisphere. So originally right? they're they're going for the biblical interpretations especially like in new england with you know, the that was protestants. And like we we all have to remember you know let's get this out like the the people that settled new england right? Those they're like radical extremists like the puritans they were like kicked out of england to the Netherlands to Belgium maybe anyways one of those principalities in between our countries in between France and Germany. And they kicked him out. You know, like these are like radical religious extremists which might explain some politics today. Um, so when they show up, they are trying the biblical interpretations like they dig go with the tower of babel or sons of Cain which really comes later. Um, like their lost tribe of Israel like they're trying to figure this out but in the eighteenth century right on the Nineteenth century. Really? um, we have the mound builder debate and and a lot of this like how long a people been in Americas wasn't really a thought process. 08:04.00 archpodnet Or thought exercise for legitimate like scientific knowledge. It was really grounded in trying to figure out and mostly prove that the native American Indians that colonists are running into were not the original inhabitants. They hadn't been here long enough. They're trying to justify colonialism and. Genocide you know state sanctioned genocide and and cultural genocide like that's that's what they're trying to do here. Um, so that we have the mound builder debate. We we know of the mounds right? We're talking about these large earth and earthworks you find them in the southeast new england midwest um, you know areas where there were early colonists. Um, colonial invaders and they're coming across these structures which are are fundamentally. You can do by yourself in a couple buddies and buckets of dirt and they're like ah these are too advanced now those savages today they couldn't have built those? No no, no this is far beyond their intellectual capability to create these and and as we've talked about right. Thomas Jefferson slaves were able to figure this out on under Tj's watch they excavated um, did did a ah oh what's the word for it. Ah you know they didn didn't dig in the mound willy-n nily like it was it was thought out excavation like it was methodological methodological that was the word I was thinking before. Um, a methodological excavation and they're able to see using you know, relative chronology these principles of geology. You know they they were able to find like european goods and some of those mounds that were early on and they're like okay this is definitely american indians um, however, so we we know people have been here longer but but. 09:40.82 archpodnet But the problem with these mounds right? Not really the problem. 1 thing that people aren't finding is a clear cut association with American Indians and pleistocene megafauno that we saw with the som right? And so we know they haven't been here as long as the pleistocene that that's what people were pushing. It. And that's fine. It was fine with these early interpretations like okay well we know? Well we've been in Europe forever you know since the ice age. Um, but. 10:14.32 archpodnet Indians couldn't have been here in the ice age because we can't find it so like they haven't been here that long so it's kind of fine that we're just you know getting rid of them right? So they weren't totally upset by this. Um and this is all kind of moving into you know manifest destiny so all this is is going on. However, things changed um in ah the early twentieth century with George Mcchunnum we talked about on the podcast former slave turned ranch foreman in New Mexico he's after a heavy rain. He's riding around on the. Ranch comes to an arroyo and is able because he works with cattle. The guy knows his bones that go to de bovids notices that there are some rather large bones protruding out of the arroyo and he like rides back to town to tell his buddies. But. Back then this ranch was huge. It was like a 2 to 3 day horse ride to get to the site of where George found these fossils bones nobody wanted to go okay, but then like George dies in the early nineteen Twenty s and his body is that he talked to one of them had just bought ah an early automobile and they were like you know what? let's go check out that place George was mentioning and so like what it what used to be a 2 to 3 day horse ride was like a half a day car ride. So just drive out there and they find it. 11:47.84 archpodnet Okay, and they're like they're blown away. They end up getting ahold of the archeologists from the Denver Museum Of Nature And Science well back then it was like the Denver History Museum Natural History Museum right whatever they go out and that's refined the like famous famous famous bullsom point in between 2 um, bi and tickless ribs. This is the smoking gun. We know that people have been here as long as ah, the ice age. Okay, now it's confirmed no doubt about it. Folsom point in between 2 ribs like at the same level. Can find this picture. They even have it at the Denver Museum Of Nature and science it's in the the hall of time. Whatever the hell is the dinosaurs in it. They have a really bad anthropology part at the very end. But if you get to the end of that hall of time exhibit. You can see what we're talking about I've seen the collections they're they're absolutely phenomenal I got to take a gander at at Folsom. Um, when when I worked at Dmons and so now and and today you know it's ah the discovery is accredited to George even though George Died he was the one that found the site. Um on we had cars earlier right? So that now we know people have been in the United States or in North and south america well least North america as long as the night two twice? Um yes George Mcjunkin got and and like this is February too. Wow yes, so I mean go george go George um, I'm trying to think because like I have I'm actually like looking up some slides. 13:19.90 archpodnet Um, so folsom at that time was was believed to be the oldest right? We know we know today that it's it's not it was um, can I tell you as a story I'm going to tell you as a story. Um, that's related to folsom. It was like my my first week at see you Boulder. I was taking a ceramics class with Dr Ecort Scott Ortman and ah Devin Pedigre who has been on the podcast he was in the class with me and it's like day one. It's like syllabus day and we're sitting there and then like after the end of the syllabus lecture Scott asks. Everyone's like oh do you guys have any questions. And and this is a ceramic class my and this like random undergraduate like stands up and he's like yes, well we have the opportunity to like research the oldest known projectile point like folsom points and Scott was like no this is a cerams class. Not a elixis class and the and the students like but why why don't we get to study and it was this really weird back and forth. And finally I like you and I I stepped in I was like you know Folsom's not the oldest point right? like you've heard a clovis and the kid was just like what I'm like have you never heard of a clovis boy before like Clovis is older and there's like a whole preclovis clovis debate like and I mean he's an undergrad but it's like a really funny exchange anyways. So. We know people have been here longer and then after that fun fact. Um so folsom we know is at that time in the early twentieth century was the oldest and then we actually found um the next one that had clovis points in it and this is this is a fun fact. Ah is is actually dent. Um. 14:52.54 archpodnet So there is the dent mammoth site and it is ah next to the South Platte River and southeast millikn Colorado it had clovis points in it and it was discovered before blackwater draw. The issue is is it wasn't published first. That that's the big one so it is it is associated with mammoths which we'll get into later. It's indent so like technically Clovis should be called dent. But the folks down at blackwater draw New Mexico which also found you know the same point typology in association with the kill. Um, they didn't able to get it published. They got it out first. Um, so that's why it's called Clovis and not dent and that's kind of the but you know that's that's one of the things of of publisher parish right? Um, so yeah, that's ah, that's a fun fact. The clove the people in New Mexico got it out quicker so another amazing discovery. Ah, could have gone to Denver Museum Nature and science archeology but they they sat on that on that goose or sat on that egg not a goose. You don't sit on Geese um, you can sit on swans though. Ah, but 1 of these. 16:07.60 archpodnet Commonalities right? both in Europe and in North America at this time is in order to find the um, the oldest sites. They're generally looking for pleistocene megafauna. Okay like that's those are the blinders. It's like we know we can find. These archeological components with these extinct megafauna. Um, and we're going to get into that more in segment 3 when we talk about overkill hypothesis. And the extinction of the megafauna but I want you to save that thought because next on this next segment of episode one forty three we're going to talk about I'm going to talk to you guys about the preclovis versus closed debate so stay tuned and we'll be right back to to hear my thoughts.