00:00.73 archpodnet All right? and we're back with episode one forty three for another one of ah for this Carlton Conversation we're all having so and and last step the last segment we talked about kind of setting the stage for people in the Americas how long have people been in the western hemisphere. So now I want to get into this debate of really this pre-clovis versus clovis who is here first or where did people come from so kind of tying in the kclovis versus cle pre-clovis and people in the Americas right? and I'm going to wrap this up in the context of some of the 4 theories for peopleing. That we see and this is tied into really you know Cloviss versus prechlobus so we have 4 prevailing theories. We have the ice free corridor or the bearring Land Bridge two we have salutrine or the atlantic migration three talked about this bit maritime route or Kelp Highway Hypothesis or pacific culture route and then the fourth one we have the Oceana colonization or the Polynesian Route we're just to go through these real quick 1 by one now. So like the the most prevailing theory that was held for the longest time of of first right? Um, we just. Discussing who came through which route first not necessarily if these were possible later on this is like where the first people to ever come into. Um the western hemisphere and which weight do they use right? So one is the icefree corridor the bearing land bridge. 01:32.31 archpodnet If you've ever seen like a picture of what bridgeke look like you should look it up because it's really not like a land bridge. It's a whole ass like connecting of the continent like it it doubles if not triples the land mass between Alaska and and Russia and remember Alaska is our biggest estate. It is huge. So people wouldn't have known. It's a bridge like they would have just thought they were crossing into more of Asia right? like it is it is massive. Um, so people are coming in from Siberia predominantly because there are glaciers in Asia. As well as north america the pleistone ice sheet and and these ice sheets they do block you can get into western Alaska sorry the ice sheets do not block western Alaska or like mid Alaska they they follow. Some of the ausian Islands Southeast Alaska and into Canada like that's just kind of where the wall is so you can go into Alaskan people were there. So some of the earliest occupations we know of are in Alaska but they're not in the continental north america yet they're not. They're not on the interior. They're kind of stuck here and. This icefree corridor right? This was originally associated with clovis culture which is a culture that we've talked about should have been called dent and and these cultures early on we should provide context clovis existed is dated right now from ah 11300 to 10850 calbi. 02:56.88 archpodnet Be oh shit. Sorry 26300 to 12850 bp before present which translates to 11300 to 10850 Bc right? So we're talking. Um. About thirteen hundred thirteen thousand years ago and you know 12 twelve thousand Eight hundred years ago and these cultures that we talk about Clovis Folsom these are all based on projectile point typology. Not necessarily real material culture. There's no pottery at this time paleoindian and archaic we we separate time and archeology based on these large these large groups you have Paleodian period you have the archaic period woodland and then you know prerecontact and. And stuff like that and that bet basically like paleoing and archaic is the equivalent of the paleolithic woodland is the equivalent of the mesolithic and everything that comes after woodland is really the neolithic and these things change they happen at different points in times. And North and South America right because it's not just like 1 sudden snap of the fingers and everything switches. You know there is genetic evidence that does show relationships between some contemporary bridge in populations and indigenous populations. No doubt about it. The issue is is when. 04:21.91 archpodnet Did the icefree corridor between the laurentide ice sheet in Canada and the cordoarian ice sheet in like Western Canada and and Alaska separate in order to allow people to get in through Alaska. Basically dumping them into the rocky mountains and the great plains right? So this is where it would have opened them up into is the interior wasn't the West Coast now dumps them into essentially wyoming and they have free rain. We do know the iceree corridor was indeed open thirteen thousand years ago so right at the time Clovis could have come in the issue though is when could have been supported life the iceree corridor even though it could have been opened. It needed time for plants to 1 recolize and then also for animals to come in and have enough food to support the herbivores and the carnivores. So even though it was open I mean we're talking about a stretch of ice. In between Alaska and Wyoming that is a long way with chevro legs to move yourself. So even though it's open we' there's still needs time for animals and plants to kind of utilize there. Also it's a hellhole. 05:49.15 archpodnet In that ice recorder there. It is loud. There's constantly ice breaking. Um, it's wet. It's not the not the greatest environment but we do know it's possible. People are definitely being dumped in there and the genetic evidence does show like okay, there's are some subberian populations but are they first? Well we'll get into that but the second. Which we've talked about a bit on this podcast but we kind of talked about all this stuff on the podcast before where I want to talk about salutrin real quick. You know Salutrine was really so proposed by Bruce Bat Bradley and Dennis Stanford and Dennis Stanford as suddenly passed away and this is the most bonkers theory and it's it's not. Legit but I want to cover it and they they proposed that people sailed from central France and Southern Spain or Northern Spain sorry along the glacial maximum in the North Atlantic to Eastern North Atlantic to Eastern North America sorry and these sites predict the opening of ice free cordor and they are saying clovis points to quick solution points they they don't. Solution points aren't fluted. They don't look like Clovis additionally like they're they're basing this off of like really for sites Kenosha in um Michigan what's above Illinois it's Michigan right? No minnesota what am I thinking. 07:06.67 archpodnet Wisconsin wow I'm bad with the Midwest States cono Wisconsin meadowroft in Pennsylvania cactus hill in Virginia topper in South Carolina we talked about these those components are highly they they they don't have projectile point typologies. Their assemblages are really kind of sketchy they're they're very so they don't. And they have like weird broken rocks but nothing absolutely There's no smoking gun to those sites and I've been to meowro it's it's kind of bonkers the problem with this theory is 1 people have had a sail there without any sort of Landmas without any sort of ability to support themselves on very you know rudimentary boats. Additionally. The problems with this the pre-clovisst sites you know Meadow Cro topper cactus hill don't have any projectile points and a very small artifact assemblages that are highly questionable and there's no dna evidence that we have so far to support any sort of mixing between the indigenous populations here are coming from. Ah. Europe also solution points don't look like clovis points right? Solution points aren't float fluted and salut and culture predates the clovis culture with a huge time gap like Salutrin is from 21000 to 17000 bp and Clovis is from thirteen three hundred to 1285 bp so there is a like 3700 year time gap between those 2 points. They don't look similar at their fucking bonkers and the issue with this is why it needs to be squashed. Squash is like nazis like legit nazis love salutrion. 08:39.60 archpodnet Because they they're like oh you know archaeologists approved it europeans were here first and like indigenous people wiped them out so us coming back this all ties back into colonialism and like validifying the genocide of American Indians it's just crap you can I don't recommend you do this but there's like if you go to the white pride worldwide website. Like on their homepage. They have a taglines called. It's official whites were the first americans second of all people in Europe during this time in Sutrin weren't weren't white. That's that's later much later like these people we all know they're not very intelligent to begin with but solution. Didn't happen. Ah so yeah, that's it. You've heard it for here probably ah several times now Salutrin's bullshit don't believe it. It doesn't didn't happen. There's nothing to support it. Third 1 ah, maritime route this is the kelppiway or pacific coast hypothesis right? This theory is people migrated from Coastal East Asia into the West Coast the Americas via watercraft along an unglaciated coast which existed an ung glaciated coast and basically they're just following seals and kelp it is a highly rich biodiverse marine ecosystem people could have easily just sailed across it. They weren't you know they didn't have like they weren't sailing open ocean. They're just following the coastline um you know and and archeological sites along the West Coast have had robust artifact assemblages that predate the opening of the ice corridor in span across the west coast of North and South America 10:01.55 archpodnet And recent Dna analysis has shown genetic affiliation between subs siberian populations and indigenous groups in the Americas right? and the and the sites here we're talking about and we're talking about the channel islands which are like thirteen hundred years ago paslet caves fourteen hundred years ago in the triquette islands roughly fourteen hundred years ago and we also have Huico Prieta at 1500 to 1455 sorry quabrata yagua at Thirteen Thousand Ah cobrata techkwai in South America 13000 and then you know monteeverde Fourteen five right so we have sites that have project out points and and robust artifact assemblages that are along the west coast of north and South America they're earlier than close right? Um, so yeah. But there are some dubious things with it but we'll get into that here in a bit as we round out this segment now. The fourth one now. The oceanic pot colonization. You might not have heard about this one. This is the polynesian route people coming in from polynesian into South america now there are you know the theory that oceanic voyagers colonize south america there is very very very little genetic evidence to suggest interaction between south american populations of polynesians. However, this really seems to have occurred around a d Eleven fifty or eight hundred fifty years ago well after the initial colonization so it happened but like much later in time they still beat the europeans you know. 11:29.71 archpodnet s it's kind of like a cool fact. It's like well polynesians we're also here and then also like people forget that inuit in like west coast natives and especially in alaska were interacting with people from asia all the time you know they were on the like d as end of the s silkph road we have italian we have a venetian beads and alaskan context like they were trading it with their relatives right across the channel. So. That's a whole different thing so salutrins bullshit oceanic isn't bullshit. It just happened much much later so we had the 2 main ones that we really got going for right ice free corridor and maritime it really really. Looks like the first way people got here was maritime and then people later came into the iceree corridor but number 1 is maritime now. How does this all fit into clovis and preclovis right? Well, that's that's the Big big deal here is clovis to me really seems to be associated with ice free corridor those I think those people were definitely clovis were equipped with clovis typologies and like clovis was a really quick culture right? like those dates on clovis it's only like a couple you know like. Maybe four hundred five hundred years old like it was quick. Um, but the problem with these pre-cloisites or some of these maritime right sites. It's like they might not have projectile point typologies associated with them. Some are kind of dubious. 12:59.74 archpodnet And this is where we're going to kind of get into with well who are the first people were they equipped with well Clovis is definitely is established and and the way that I think about this the clovis and pre-clobes debate to me. It's very much like if we're to use a metaphor It's kind of like the the gun debates in in the Americas right. So you have 2 camps pre-clovis and clovis the clovis people are they're kind of like ah very much like dont the dope band guns part of our government. They're all on the same page no restrictions they're everyone's on the same page like no no background checks. Whatever the hell it is right like they're all in the same camp the pre-clovis people even though they're all under this banner of pre-clobus they they all disagree on what how far back or what constitutes pre-clobus right? similar to like what we see in our and in the american political system where you have people that do want to limit firearms guns. But they all have different ideas of what they to do some want background checks somewhat but you know what I mean so even though you have 2 camps 1 camp is way more fractured and divided and what constitutes it so it's it's harder for them to get on the same page whereas the other side the clovis firsters or the clovis first mafia they're all like Nope Clovis is here first. Everything you guys have to say is bullshit. Where the people on the pre-clova side are like well these this is way too old. This is not legit. My site's legit that you know you guys get what I'm saying pre the pre-cloviss camp is way more divided and it's really a bunch of subset camps on some of these sites right? They might still be clovis. 14:28.27 archpodnet People carrying clovis points but we just haven't found the clovis points. That's the other thing is like how old is really clovis is still up for up for debate because some of these sites don't we haven't found a clovis point we haven't found a point we have a like stone tools butchering marks whatever we do have some good robust artifact assembls. But they're missing like a projectile point typology or you know. Like a finished stone tool product. So it could be col clobu. We don't know the the search continues. Um Monte Verde you know word word out is that on the street from David there's about to be ah, a pretty good piece disproving. Um. Monte Verde based on the geology and and I really didn't know this debate either. But apparently the guy that does the excates mont of verde like guards it pretty heavily and doesn't want people looking at it and that's a huge red flag to me. Paisley caves is legit I think that has like human poo in it and like human poo is pretty good like yeah people were definitely here right? Um, the other issue with this coastal route. When the glaciers melted sea levels Rose so a lot of those early sites that were on the west coast are underwater makes it a lot in a way more difficult to find them whereas at Clovis point like clovis culture is like they're in the interior of the United States right like they're not really affected by rising sea levels where that coastal route hypothesis like that is super like those sites are underwater like we even know of sites in the mediterranean that are underwater and those are only a couple thousand years ago right so like those sites unless they're in high elevations that aren't like like Monteverde in Chile right. 16:06.90 archpodnet That's that's high up there like you got it, you got to do some climbing to get to it so finding some of those sites that they they might just be gone. You know? um, but Clovis is really tied to land. Ah, the ice freee corridor where pre-clovis is kind of tied into this maritime route. And they and they're different populations right? like it's not just one group that came to the Americas there was multiple migrations. How many people who the hell knows probably not a lot and we're going to. We're goingnna get into that pretty heavily in this next segment. So and and I don't want to? um I very much believe people were here older. Then you know Clovis I don't you've heard us talk I don't believe in srudy the white sands footprints I'm still out on the chickwahita caves thing. We talked about that's bullshit. Um I think people have been here older than clovis what we assume is like the the start date of Clovis. Whether that is still clovis I don't know because we don't know if those other sites were clovis or had clovis and and just anyways, it's just a fucking point projectile point typology. It's basically we're we're arguing over the kind of phone people had for me like this idea of like what's the first artifact assemblage I don't give a shit It's like how long have people been here for and even that kind of point is moot. It's just a thought exercise for me is' like oh how long were people here like that's about it like the way people get so fucking bent out of shape over clovis or pre-clobus is fucking childish like oh at the end of the day they're arguing over rocks. 17:38.49 archpodnet And a lot of these interpretations like are kind of meaningless like it's cool like I think it's just fun to know like how long people have been here. We know American Indians have been here for longer than 10000 years end of story. How long ago like I just want. Where's the anthropology behind like how did people get here what kind of. Challenges adverseity up to face like these are colonizing populations that are coming into a brand new world that has never seen that hasn't seen apes you know in a long time but there used to be miocene primates in North South america they're gone. You know those are the kind of things that I want to talk about not like well. These people had the iphone and then the people with the drid they came like it's it's fucking stupid at the end of the day these arguments and how worked up people get is ridiculous and it gets childish. But I do want to talk about something that does have consequences and so we're going to talk about like you know plyoine megafaunic extinctions here in a bit and kind of the routes that are going in there. So for me I think people were definitely here earlier than what our latest dates of clovis so I think people have been here based on some of the sites longer than. You know 11300 bce um, whether they have clovis points or not I don't care but people have been here longer. Ah and the first people probably came through the coaster route based on the earliest sites and the fact that like even though Brindia was open. It might have not been able to support life. 19:05.19 archpodnet So that's that's my two ah cent we're going to be right back I mean we're going to I want to talk to you guys about the plety megafauna so stay tuned.