00:00.00 archpodnet 1 go 3 00:04.10 alan Welcome everybody out there in rock art podcast land this is your host Dr Alan Garfinkel and we're blessed and honored to have ah our most popular guest scholar Dr. Turtham muah habadi from Mexico with us again and I'm and we're going to call this particular episode sort of the archeology of motions part 2 how about that turha. We are you with us. 00:33.46 TIRTHA Yes, I'm with you Alan thank you very much for inviting me and once again, always a pleasure to be with you. We could definitely call it archeology of emotions part 2 and it should lead us as we were talking about it. Ah, few moments ago we could. We could generally try and also look at the original religions from the perspectives that we are going set up. Yeah, right? yes. 01:02.90 alan Yeah, we can pick we can pick up pick up pick up that theme as well. So how would you like how would you like to kick it off ah doctor. 01:12.19 TIRTHA Thank you Alan um I guess we could start off from where we left in the last podcast conversation on the emotive quality of rock art templates and you know yes. 01:25.88 alan But but and I've given that a lot of thought and it's been interesting. You know I was reflecting on that particular theme and I went back and listened to some of my earlier episodes of the ah rock art podcast and came across the ah piece. 01:29.29 TIRTHA I have. 01:35.65 TIRTHA Great. 01:42.62 alan That was done on archeo acoustics and I thought that it was rather remarkable because ah Steve Waller had said specifically how his spirits were buoed and he was shocked when. 01:43.99 TIRTHA I have. 01:51.62 TIRTHA Ah. 02:01.46 alan He found that many if not most of the rock art sites that he has researched have an ecophonic property and that in part plays into this. Um this way in which the um the rocks begin to speak. 02:06.50 TIRTHA Okay. 02:20.00 TIRTHA 8 02:21.39 alan Themselves and it is ah it's a mysterious and overwhelming and remarkable ah realm of communication where we we have this flavor that the spirits themselves The supernaturals. Are communicating from inside the rock envelope. How's that. 02:48.39 TIRTHA Ah, yes, that sounds interesting indeed. The I guess you you are also referring to the notion of the the whole concept of psychoacoustics of of place. Yes. 03:00.72 alan Guess. 03:05.27 TIRTHA And ah, primarily even if we consider the very empirical nature of the location or the space that surrounds rock art that that incorporates and surrounds at the same time rock art representations. Rock art depictions. It's ah the 1 thing that we are confronted with immediately is is this is this is the quality of the silence. The vast sway of nature and land and. 03:43.67 TIRTHA Ah, untold yet if we are sensitive to the properties of place we seem to identify ah eerie feelings of being there Of. Of being connected to very strange sensations of of space and and and above all silence I Guess if I'm not very familiar with our kill acoustics. 04:18.64 alan Right. 04:20.57 TIRTHA Ah, in in the sense that I do not have much experience or feel experience studying ouraacoustic properties. For instance, you have I guess done more ah studies on this theme along with. Our young scholar from Santa Cruz Chester yes 04:44.15 alan Right? But but I but but I think that what the issue is in a broader sense is is these particular sites have an inherent spirituality and the images have ah a numinous nature. Ah. By their very characterization and the sites and places that are selected for rock art are often if not overwhelmingly remarkable places for their drama for their particular. Um. 05:19.27 alan Topographic Ah and what would you put it. It's sort of the the to it's it's ah it's a land form that speaks to us. Um, one of the things that that came came to me which surprised the heck out of me. There was a woman that that took a trip down the. 05:21.72 TIRTHA Yeah, like. 05:32.93 TIRTHA And. Right. 05:37.70 alan Little petrick with Canyon with with me. She'd never been out there and she's an an author and had written a ah lot of children's books about some of this this subject matter we're talking about about the animal master and about some of his qualities and. 05:48.97 TIRTHA A. 05:55.64 alan And as as she began to descend into the bowels of the earth because the canyon itself is is invisible until you get there and you see it and it goes into the interior of the ground and goes deeper and deeper and deeper she so she said well Alan. You've missed the whole point this whole particular canyon this whole landform all of these images speak to the animal mistress animal master concept and she went through a chapter in verse and showed me how this is the the. 06:32.63 TIRTHA If you. 06:33.45 alan Underworld Netherworld of the ah the super mundane beings that transmogrify and bring back the animals and allow them to live and be eternal beings. 06:45.45 TIRTHA Well, that's I couldn't have and narrated a more wonderful story but surely the the wind the the passage of winds the the path of was and. Sounds that that these natural forms make against each other through their interactions and the very nature of silence in these vast ecological. The alive and animated locations these these are and and the and the shamans were so sensitive they could um. 07:26.62 alan Absolutely. 07:38.77 TIRTHA They were they were they were I mean the word that that's just coming to my mind right? away is sense sense Relies Senseibility as shown which is which is like you get you get to sensitize yourself to this deeply Anim animistic talking nature talking stones says. That's what that's the title of the documentary that you made on the Kosa Rock Arts isn't it right. 08:04.12 alan It is and I think it's It's very appropriate because even when you're there and you're viewing these images at a rock art site. The images are silent and you're silent. But. 08:18.54 TIRTHA Right. 08:23.33 alan You have this feeling this sensitivity this this sort of overwhelming unction that the images have something to say you don't know what they're saying maybe but you think but you know that they're communicating to you. 08:30.96 TIRTHA Ah. 08:41.34 TIRTHA This was ah absolutely one of those very interesting themes which were developed by some psychologists who so who were studying the effect of all a WE O Or wonder the sense of vastness or admiration and ah I was quite surprised to find ah this may not be a case of mathematical Strait jacketing. But while studying the properties of all. The the aural effects. In fact, in in archeoacoustics. There is prevalence of the term ah oralization of Landscape. So The landscape creates a ah holistic. 09:29.46 alan Name me. Okay. 09:36.26 TIRTHA Ah, total integrated aura out of ah the ah interanimation of certain factors in the in the landscape and in psychology Very interestingly, um, there are references to. The the psychological effects effect tenses as they call it in Psychology was just one The one of those technical phrases that you use effect and motivation and they and they speak of they try to Categorize. Or identify the the several factors that create the oralization effect and one of this is ah is a sense of self a type an altered time perception and Alter time perception. Which is born out of an intense engagement with the object of view or with the with the sensation of sound the acoustics. Ah and and you lose the sense of time or you've begin to feed a sense of more intense. Intenser time of being there. Presence there is a reference. There's reference in the literature to to a sense of self-diminishment which is provoked by fear or. 11:09.78 TIRTHA Some kind of supernatural sensation and one of the other ah secondary secondary factors which which creates the sense of oralization is. Is the context of the vastness of the landscape of of the sublime nature of those features and the the flow of wind and the sound effects that they create. So. The the whole sense of self. So how do we characterize the feelings of a viewer who is placed in the middle of these these formations natural formations and they are looking at these. Marks which on on the rock so surface which you're trying to tell them something I mean yeah, this is also I have been to an underground location subterranean river location in central India. Ah, where the river keeps running for several meters. They need ah several kilo. Ah ah, a couple of kilometers and ah creating so very small cataracts or. 12:44.13 TIRTHA These waterfalls and the sensation of sound water and the silence within a subterranean passage. They come together with very eerie. Ah. 13:02.24 TIRTHA Effects and motivations or maybe even withdrawal a sense of you know the the total oralized being that we associate with the the landscapes. 13:18.75 alan So I Think what we're talking about and to sort of bring it. You know somewhat of full circle is we're talking about transcendence or a transcendent feeling some sort of connection to the C Celestial Supernatural Creator. Um. Beings this this overwhelming sense of ah connectivity and I don't know Sensuality I guess is part of it too. 13:49.70 TIRTHA It's ah it's ah it's the Hedonic tone or the Hedonic tone of that awareness of that feeling which is very exceptional and yet which is something which is supernatural and. 14:07.70 TIRTHA It's It's a very fertile ground for ritual experiences and. 14:10.28 alan Yes, and so and and and ah it would make some sense to me that there would be ceremonies of dancing singing drumming or other kinds of cooperative or collaborative or ceremonial groupings. That would occur in association with those kinds of Imagery am I correct. 14:36.39 TIRTHA Yes, This is ah what we could call or what what you just mentioned this the the pro-social actions of being together and and and. Celebrating with with the drums. The rhythmic um unison the that that rhythmic harmony that that the that the most ancient musical forms create some of which Is. Of course still evident the roots. The roots are evident in the the tree so to speak in the organism even with and yeah, and so so this creates this anticipates the ah neuropsychology. 15:20.96 alan Um, yeah. 15:32.39 alan Ah. 15:32.61 TIRTHA Ah, neuropsych the neuropsychological reflections or we might indulge here in trying to understand what this experience is like and and and the and the 1 word which covers and. 15:49.33 TIRTHA Recapitulates everything that we are trying to say here as as perhaps animism and Animism. Ah, which should be understood as provoking these other orientations. In the feelings These transformations of the individual self. But yes. 16:14.17 alan But let's let let's leave it there and we'll pick it up on the next segment catch on the flip flop gang.