00:00.37 alan Welcome back, Rock The all you archeology podcasters to the rock art Podcast. We're taking a deep dive into the archaeology of emotions and talking about the origin of religion and what makes rock art tick and. During this last segment we're going to talk a little bit about sacred narrative and the mythologies the stories that are in fact, emblazoned upon the ah the stones and how those are characterized tertha. 00:35.71 alan Kick it off for me, please. 00:36.93 TIRTHA Thank you very much a yes, the last segment can be devoted to an understanding of the you know these are extending the lessons that we learned from rock art. The. That beautiful narrative of sustenance of sustainability of being in tuned with the logical the harmony of the Universe. You know that you call it the call it the dao of the Universe. Call it that sense of being out there like um Toroh characterized of in of man in wilderness the. 01:31.90 alan And I and I think that in certain occasions. It's it's not it may be Common. It may be uncommon to have the creation stories the sacred narratives actually depicted or characterized. Within the rock art imagery itself am I correct. 01:52.74 TIRTHA Yes, of course. But what seems more fascinating I just wanted Maybe I'm jumping I'm I'm jumping with your kind permission. But but the the creation stories they are so important to the sacred narratives. 01:57.83 alan Yes, please No no go. 02:12.55 TIRTHA Of all cultures irrespective of the timescale that we consider not just in the the cultures of native America of North America in the in the throughout the world throughout the world. Yes, the the creation stories for instance. 02:21.86 alan But throughout the world. 02:31.23 TIRTHA The creation story of the book of Genesis creations story in the sacred narrative of the aztecs the the father and mother of getzo quotal. The the winged serpent and ah this great. 02:50.31 TIRTHA Ah indifferent maybe ah inebriated or you know intoxicated father creator who created and forgot about creation and all these very nuanced funny. Interesting ways of storytelling that is inherited in in the sacred narratives of the world. They point towards the creation of the world. But but what I wanted to go ahead talking about is. The way in which the narrators the earliest narrators handle the theme ah of time because ah, no amount of logical rational. Narrative skills will enable humans to speak of the of of a so-called past and and creation of coming forward to having been created. At some point of time or through some phase of history I mean how do we speak of the whole story of creation in an in a moment or through 1 metaphor or through one image that great challenge. 04:21.54 TIRTHA It's ah it's a challenge to ah, it's a challenge that the that the very limits of of being a human imposes on the storyteller but at the same time. 04:26.42 alan Maybe happen. 04:40.80 TIRTHA The the metaphorical imagination the this the sensitivity to the the silence towards the silence as much as towards the acoustics of it this helps the narrator. To talk about creation in the way they do in the in the sacred narratives of creation. For example, if we if you think of the book of genesis and those seven days in which god creates. Ah, adamm. Ah the the creation of the human. Well the male comes first and and and an eve is created from the ribs of Adam and you know that's that sequence. It's it is it a time sequence. It's ah it's ah it's both a time sequence. It's both a narrative in time and it's not in time and ah from the deep waters and god's spirit overs over you know the over the darkness of the waters and and then it's created. If you look at some of the african or south asian or the um siberian myths of creation. There's the same reference to the waters to to a primeval ocean. 06:14.50 TIRTHA Or a darkness and the coming of a bird or or the command of ah of ah of a satin bogna I mean some scholars have went ah out to the extent of identifying. Of linguistic equivalents in in the names and etymology of the gods and goddesses we are dealing with a very long time frame of Sacredct paraatives but at the same time. There is this coming together of 2 principles a male and a female or darkness and light and ah there is ah a creation that the world comes into being and humanity appears. And the so whole sacred narrative of creation and the dt and it's a Dt this process. There could be no, ah, no better way to incorporate that incrediblely. 07:28.35 TIRTHA That in that in finite that history on ah which ah, which which was which occurred on a scale that would beat any kind of imagination and it gets represented in a figure. In a human figure who did that So what? What do we derive from that that story the of of the egg of a bird laying an egg in the in a darkness of Waters. You know it's.. It's just that the answers are not to be found in not true, a process of quantifications. The answers are to be found in our emotional responses to. World. 08:27.73 alan Yeah, you're exactly right? Yeah, um, it's it's meant to be evocative. It's meant to be emotional. It's meant to not only entertain, but but Tug at your heartstrings to to further. 08:42.35 TIRTHA Um, right up. 08:45.57 alan Connect you to something beyond yourself beyond your your small and and diminutive presence here on the globe on on Earth and somehow feel that you're connected. To something greater than yourself some some broad pattern an epic store an epic story correct. 09:07.92 TIRTHA Sure sure that that yes, yes, the the or the origins of epics and ah the creation stories there they are they all refer back to. Um. To this understanding of of of a benevolence of ah, ah, but of Abundance Bounty you could call it bounty even for the ah for humanity in in its hunter gatherer forager context right. 09:40.66 alan Yeah, yeah I I've in in in my publications I've I've ah called them increase rights or or you know having some sort of an understanding of ah. 09:43.33 TIRTHA Talk. 09:51.89 TIRTHA Right? a. 09:56.25 alan Of of a collaboration or a connection of a group of people trying to enforce some sort of a prayer or some sort of ah a benevolence from a supernatural deity is that correct. 10:01.11 TIRTHA Sorry right. 10:13.23 TIRTHA Yes, yes, yes, of course it's in in the word increase which increase writes it. It's It's a very significant phrase I Guess which is which appears in many of your ah. 10:28.56 TIRTHA Um, papers on the team of on the under on the rock arts really on the on the on the ethnography, the ethnographic records of of the cultures of of the California mojave. 10:39.52 alan Um, yeah. 10:44.11 alan We're dealing with issue. We're dealing with issues of fertility. Obviously it was incredibly important to the preliterate societies to be able to have a child have a child That's that's healthy and have it live long enough to procreate. 10:46.59 TIRTHA All right. 10:53.66 TIRTHA But is up. 10:59.77 TIRTHA Okay, yes. 11:00.97 alan And continue the the bloodline and that's not such an easy thing to do if you're a hunter gatherer faced with starvation or faced with the vagaries of a um of an environment that's unpredictable. Correct. 11:17.77 TIRTHA Right? And more moreover that the great danger of competing groups. Um competition and survival because it's it's also intrahuman that. There are these untold unexpected threats from from different angles and and war the possibility of the breakout of conflicts within within those internesine tribes and populations for. Same resources and and if you if you look at the story of quetzel quattle who comes quetzu quattle is like ah you know one of those versions of the of the legend of Quetzel quattle among the aztecs and. And generally not just the aztecs but also the the the other related ah the contiguous cultures like the you know that the word is theasteca the hoastecs who whoever to the the various. 12:24.80 alan A. 12:29.97 TIRTHA Ah, denominations that came into contact with the aztecs. Although the aztecs were the um were the most prominent ones and advanced. Um the material culture advancement was most. Prominently expressed among the azticcs but the waztelers have 1 version of thequetzel quattle met where wherequetsu quottle where is he he he belongs to the winds and he would come and there's this prophecy there's this prediction. Ah, who. Who would come to to a kingdom which whose ruler is a warmonger and who is violent and who who is irrational. Ah, who has to emit these negative energies. Not just to you know defend. But there's no defense There's only greed perhaps symbolized and in the in the the figure of who wemack and. Quetsel quottle appears. Ah when quetzel quoottle really appears and confronts who amak the the king is completely overwhelmed overwhelmed not with not just. 14:03.84 TIRTHA By the by the by the power by something physically identifiable but by the by the peace by the Harmony. By the message as schizootal offers ah to to bring together as the all the conflicts and the dark energies of night and to express as a God of. Dawn. So The sense of the dawn. The the divinity is always identified with with sustenance with as you call them the increase rights with Peace. With all that is ah helps preserve the dynamics of the system rather than create a this equilibrium and the sacred narratives are always are always returning us to this theme. 15:15.27 alan And it's it's really it's regenerative if they're looking at the cosmos you've you've got the night star and the day star. You've got the ah and that and that is the seasonal cycles. But also it has to do with with sort of the the the resurrection of. 15:17.52 TIRTHA And yeah, right. 15:25.70 TIRTHA The season of cycles. 15:34.13 TIRTHA Yes. 15:34.84 alan Life life from death as as the sun sets it then arises as the moon comes it grows in pieces and then it's birthed and then it becomes invisible and it comes back again. So there's this, there's this as you look at the natural world. 15:54.32 TIRTHA Yeah. 15:54.55 alan Is shouting to you conceptually about the concept of a start a finish visible invisible light dark ah the underworld and the sky world. It's almost as though. 16:11.81 alan The environment is teaching you or showing you the cosmological nexus that you portray correct. Yes, yes, absolutely. And unfortunately the story is about ready to end for us today. 16:18.96 TIRTHA And the story continues. 16:27.98 TIRTHA Yes. 16:31.80 alan In our and and so ah I'll give you the last word tertha. 16:36.23 TIRTHA Well, it has been a great experience talking to you on this platform and especially I feel honored and privileged to have launched this this notion of the archeology of Emotions. And I Only hope that we take it forward that our listeners ah also feel that there is much to think about in. This whole project of the transformation of the positive sciences. 17:16.73 alan Sounds good seeing the flip flop gang take care. Thank you Tertha god bless and see you again shortly. 17:22.38 TIRTHA Thank you.