00:01.71 archpodnet Welcome to the rock art podcast everybody this is your usually ah producer and editor Chris Webster but today as we've done in the past I'm interviewing Allen Allen welcome to your show. Ah. 00:13.41 Alan Oh thank you. Thank you Chris it's it's always a joy and ah a wonder when you and I have a chance to share our repartee and and and converse it's been a while? yeah. 00:23.35 archpodnet Yeah, it's been Ah, it's been a while since we did one of these. Yeah um, it. 00:28.88 Alan Yeah, and it's It's a lot of fun and I usually wait until I can think of something that's very topical. Ah very very interesting and and needs to be discussed and I think there's a subject subject we can We can. We can all agree is. 00:42.68 archpodnet Um. 00:46.49 Alan Is rather interesting. 00:46.69 archpodnet Yes, and we are going to talk about one of my favorite subjects the dating of things because as an archeologist I mean honestly, we all talk about oh I want to know this and I want to do this but really we want to know how old something is every single time. That's like the. The first question that we want to know is how old is the thing then we can learn about what the thing tells us about other stuff right? So dating of rock art is exactly dating of rock art is notoriously difficult and we're going to talk about that in a very particular context today. All right? Yes, so. 01:06.72 Alan Exact exactly? yeah. 01:14.77 Alan Excellent, Be a lot of fun. 01:21.79 archpodnet We are going to talk about some of the oldest rock art in North America let's start with setting that stage. 01:27.46 Alan Yeah,, let's talk about that. So ah, we have had a ah real challenge in trying to understand the antiquity of rock art and rock art. Especially Petroglyphs. Don't leave much to date. There's no,, There's typically no organic material to capture and radiocarbon dating on Petrolyphs Rock Drawings is not really a ah feasible way because there's nothing organic to to date typically. But there was an exception to that and that was in ah in the great basin and that was something that had a ah newsworthy item where was that doctor where did we find that famous. 02:16.29 archpodnet That. 02:20.27 Alan Ah, antiquity of rock art. 02:21.38 archpodnet So if memory serves that was in the winaucka lakes area of Northern Nevada 02:28.58 Alan That's exactly right? and the problem was what they found was there's ah ah, some sort of a a official. Ah you know calcium coating that picks up the organics and it covers the rock art. 02:44.57 archpodnet Um. 02:46.35 Alan And so what they did was at certain times when the lake was higher. The rock art was covered completely covered and and so they were able to bore into this calcareous sort of envelope. 02:55.36 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:06.12 Alan On that rock art and begin to examine its age now they knew that they knew that it was old and it was rather distinctive in its character now. Ah, this is not not the common rock art that you might see. Everywhere you see it you you see rock art and most of it is rathericcial. It is ah pecked out on some sort of a you know canvas which is typically something that is ah sandstone or granite. But often. It's basalt and it has a desert varnish coating now this rock art in Waitamuka Lake was on some sort of ah a white limestone type of base now when they went when they were able to excavate and and. 04:00.83 archpodnet Ah. 04:04.91 Alan And peer into this particular envelope. They found that there was a way to sandwich the rock art between 2 ages one was about fourteen thousand years ago and the other was about ten thousand five hundred years ago so it was some. Somewhere in that middle between the oldest date and the youngest date they both are late pleistocene now that would be a time that typically we talk about having some of the ah earliest or the basement cultures. 04:43.94 archpodnet Yeah, well and and when does the pleistocene date to. 04:44.80 Alan Chris Webster what are the basement cultures of north america well the pleistocene ah terminates at 10000 and so you've got that it's on the it's on the bubble right there now. 04:53.59 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:03.43 Alan When we think of the earliest cultures up until relatively you know recent we would talk about something called Clovis Clovis was the as the basement culture for the Americas and it was a unique expression and. 05:14.34 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:22.71 Alan 1 that was originally identified with Clovis New Mexico it's what they call it clovis and the hallmark of clovis is a fluted projectile point and these are ah beautiful cryptocrysalline very rarely obsidian but beautiful lancellate. 05:29.30 archpodnet Ah. 05:42.19 Alan Dart or spear points that have a very um, significant flake taken out of its base and thinned and that's called a flute and usually that flute is either on one side or or I think more commonly. On both sides and they believe that that flute may have had something to do with the ah ability of that particular weapon that armage armature to um pierce the skin of ah of an animal and cause it to continue to bleed. 06:17.75 archpodnet Um, Brett. 06:19.38 Alan They would it would bleed out and they wanted that to happen because then they could actually kill and acquire that animal for food. So that's that's the way we were thinking about archaeology until relatively recently. Clovis was the basement culture. The first expression it kind of arrived on the scene at about thirteen Thousand maybe two hundred and fifty years ago and continued to let's say twelve Thousand Eight hundred or so years ago and it was a very. Ubiquitous expression. It was all over the place very quickly and it was associated with megafauna. They did hunt for those ah mammoths and mastodons and camel and other ah megafaunal animals which went extinct. 06:58.22 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:16.84 Alan During the late pleistocene. So all of that was the story that we've been living with for many many many many years. Well recently that whole scenario has been up ended. It's been turned on its head. Ah, you're aware of that. Are you Chris. 07:35.78 archpodnet A little bit. Yeah, but I'm interested to hear more. 07:41.45 Alan Well, we we thought that that was about as early as we could get ah with paleo indian or um, ancient peopleing of the Americas that that was the beginning of the. Immigration or in migration of native people into the continent and we had also sketched a scenario that that corridor or that pathway that those native americans. 08:04.19 archpodnet Ah. 08:17.80 Alan Entered North America was an ice free corridor coming up through the bering strait and moving across Canada into United States across the bearing land bridge so that was the story. Well as we. 08:27.54 archpodnet Right. 08:36.52 archpodnet Ah. 08:37.60 Alan As we began to study. Ah this information further and further they found that that particular land bridge and that corridor closed at about what I think it was about in the neighborhood of let's say. 08:55.84 Alan Thirteen five or fourteen thousand years ago and anything earlier than that earlier than that would not have had a pathway a land bridge a corridor a land corridor to travel from Asia into the Americas well if they can't get in. 08:57.11 archpodnet Okay. 09:14.73 archpodnet Brett. 09:15.55 Alan That way. How did they get here. 09:17.85 archpodnet Right? And I just you know some of the theories that go through my head are following following the shoreline through various means you know following food sources along the shoreline of the Northern Pacific Ocean which would have been. 09:20.16 Alan Well go ahead, please. 09:37.67 archpodnet Horrendous during the in the in the end of an ice age right? I can't even imagine how that would have been because it would have it wouldn't have been like a a couple weeks journey it would have been years and years and years and and generations that people spent traveling this direction and and basically moving down this way. Um, and then there's there's those other theories where you know people came. 09:39.64 Alan Right. 09:57.27 archpodnet South from South America and and East from the Northeastern United States as well. So um, some we have better information for than others. 10:01.28 Alan Right? So one of my colleagues very smart man who teaches in Oregon came up with the idea he called it the pacific kelp highway hypothesis that. 10:17.19 archpodnet Yeah. 10:21.90 Alan That they were moving in boats maritime people and sort of clicking off and stopping at various spots and moving along the coast and then moving into from the pacific northwest. And even in from California across into the far west and into the plateau and into the northwest coast and into the great basin. So this was all working hypothesis's absolutely no evidence for that originally well well as. 10:43.16 archpodnet Um. 10:56.37 archpodnet Brett. 10:58.87 Alan As as luck would have it a number of researchers began to explore areas that they felt would have very very early. Perhaps even what they call Pre-clovis aboriginal activities. And they did that in Oregon they did that in idaho they did that in South America as well and and lo and behold. They began to acquire artifacts that. 11:23.82 archpodnet You know. 11:37.31 Alan Appeared to be older than the oldest clovis material which which would have been older than about thirteen Thousand two hundred and fifty years ago well that that changes everything if they were here if they were here that early. 11:43.30 archpodnet Ah, right. 11:52.73 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:55.51 Alan And they could not migrate through that ice free corridor. They had to move along the coast. They had to come in boats and then they had to move some way or other into North America via watercraft now 12:11.97 archpodnet Ah. 12:13.80 Alan Another little sidebar was the artifacts that they found that are earlier than Clovis are not are not fluted. They're not clovis points. They are what they call Western Stemmed projectile points. So they. 12:23.78 archpodnet Um, right. 12:30.27 archpodnet Yes. 12:33.42 Alan They're unfluted and they have a kindred connection to a type of point that is simply you know narrow and shouldered and and sort of even a convex or straight based but. Something that that we did not know would have continued as a projectile point type for thousands upon thousands of years and so first we began finding things like at um at some of the dry caves and so the dry caves were interesting. 12:51.32 archpodnet Um. 13:09.00 archpodnet Ah. 13:10.90 Alan they they said well if we've got these ah these ah you know these these copper lights these preserved fecal matter things we can date them and plus we can identify if they have human Dna on them and if they are human and they were. And then they began to find an association with those that were dateable talking about fourteen Thousand or more years ago they found these western stemmed projectile points and no and no fluted points. Not at all these were completely earlier. 13:46.17 archpodnet Brett. 13:49.34 Alan Then any and there were no ancessors. There were no antecedents from those clovis points to show they they appeared to have been been. You know, almost brought forth fully birthed and and they and they are autocphonous. They are they originated here in North America and have no earlier antecedents but the but but the western stempoints continue for thousands and thousands of years it looks like first of all, we found them at 14000. 14:13.99 archpodnet Right. 14:27.46 Alan And then they another site went back to sixteen thousand years ago and so we've got that 6 go ahead? Please yeah. 14:30.77 archpodnet And that just real quick that 14000 year old ah site was paisley caves in Southern Oregon was it not yeah okay, awesome. That's what I thought what's the 16000 year old site I don't think i. 14:43.13 Alan That's exactly right? yeah. 14:49.45 archpodnet Remember hearing about that or I forgot about it over Idaho that makes sense all the good stuff's up there and. 14:51.70 Alan That's over in Idaho and they yeah yeah, and so and so I've been talking to the discoverer of that those idaho finds and he ah he believes that there's even stuff earlier. 15:03.45 archpodnet Ah. 15:07.41 archpodnet Sure. Wow. 15:07.81 Alan Than that like 171819 or even 20000 years old that they've got there and they're waiting to corroborate that so that's really a huge game changer with that whole different look of understanding this much more ancient. Expression and one that was fed by a maritime set of corridors or in migration routes I mean that changes everything now now what was what's been interesting. So. 15:38.16 archpodnet Yeah, it really does. 15:47.10 Alan As as ah as a bit of infotainment from all of the listeners. Um I happen to be working on the most on the most the largest and most expensive culture resource project of my entire 50 year career right? Now. It's um, it's an $8000000 project. That's how much the culture resources cost. Um it is it is it Douglas County Oregon and it has to do with a the largest fire that they've ever had in that county and it burned. 16:06.14 archpodnet Wow. 16:20.87 archpodnet Um, ah. 16:23.61 Alan Hundreds of thousands of acres I think they had 80000 trees they had it cut down and when they went in there and since the ground had been burned so it was a very hot fire. We got to see everything in the ground. 16:40.39 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 16:41.96 Alan But for a change and if you and if've ever seen Oregon you don't see much on the ground. It's covered by by vegetation. So so when they went in there and they did the survey to protect the sites and try to preserve them and do what they could every place they looked they found sites. 16:47.86 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:01.64 Alan And the sites that they found that they thought were small became huge and the and the amount of material the amount of ah, diagnostic temporally diagnostic material that we began to see was enormous and. So All of that showed that there's that the occupations were larger the sites for larger. The sites were richer but the reason I bring this up is ah we had a chance to do? What's called Obsidian hydration dating. Source specific temperature adjustted Obsidian hydration dating and I mean hundreds of those particular measurements and this was using the state of the art Methodologies. So We were able to get. 17:40.88 archpodnet Um. 17:57.39 archpodnet Let's ah, but let's talk about? Yeah, let's talk about Obsidian hydration tating on the other side of the break because I think we want to talk about that a little more because it's It's a really important technique in the meantime yet before we go to break I've got some links that I've been taking while. 17:59.54 Alan 1 is you want to stop it. 18:07.50 Alan It is. 18:14.68 archpodnet You've been talking and so look down at your show notes everybody that's listening to this. There's some pretty good stuff in the show notes I've also got links to Dr. Garfinkel's website and his Patreon page. So check those out as well and we'll be back on the other side of the break to keep talking about this back in a minute.