00:00.30 archpodnet All right welcome to the rock art podcast. This is your sometimes co-host Chris Webster talking because I'm going to be interviewing Dr Garfinkel today Allen how's it going. 00:12.48 Alan You know it's going well been in this interesting day. Um, where are you located right now. Oh my word. What's the weather like there. Oh my words cool? Well I'm here in Bakersville California my. 00:16.17 archpodnet I am on the oregon coast central oregon coast yeah, the high was 59 today 00:29.29 archpodnet Yeah. 00:29.47 Alan Home away from home and it was. We've had some good weather. It's been cooler. It's not been that hot So we've ah been blessed a little bit so it's it's good. It's good so that the continuing the continuing digital you know connection always amazes me. 00:38.40 archpodnet Um. 00:41.24 archpodnet Indeed. 00:48.51 Alan And matter where we are. We've got we have a robust way of communicating. It's great. 00:49.70 archpodnet Exactly and and before we really get into the topic today I just want to let our audio listeners know our podcast listeners know that there is a video component to this. Um I'm going to be dropping this on the archeology podcast network Youtube channel and if all goes well. Dr. Garfinkel's Youtube channel as well. We'll link to those down in the show notes once it gets up and then also for our video listeners. Anybody who did happen to find this on Youtube you can find this podcast by just searching the rock art podcast on Apple Podcasts google podcasts Spotify I heart radio all the different places. Um, or you can go over to arcpodnett.com/rock art and you can find it there. So if you're interested in the audio version only then you can do that otherwise we are going to try to include a presentation that alllan has to go along with this in the show notes and it should be um, along with the video as well. if ah if all goes well. So we'll we'll see how that goes. Um anyway and this is the first time we've actually done video with the rock card podcast. It's ah it's through our platform that we record with called Zencastr and it kind of just does all the work for us which is pretty great. So you know we'll see how it goes we're just trying something new here. So I think. 01:51.33 Alan Yeah, yeah. 02:04.30 archpodnet I think with that Allen will get into talking about a a particular rock art image if you will that has special meaning. 02:12.30 Alan So I've I've been thinking about this for quite a while and wanting to discuss a particular symbol that is Pan Pan north america and also in some ways Pan Mesoerica and it's called the encapsulated cross. It's called the encircled cross. It's an abiding symbol of native american cosmology and it has ah intricate connections to a lot of history religion. And um, ah, the values and themes of the nature of native american what would you call it native american religion but also native american value systems. And heritage. So all of the above. Um, go ahead. 03:09.74 archpodnet So what before we get too deep into this. Why don't you describe what? one of these looks like because I'm imagining like crosshairs in a rifle or something. Okay. 03:19.57 Alan That's exactly what it looks like. Um if you put a cross on a piece of paper the intersections of 2 a vertical and a horizontal line and you encircled them with a circle. That's all it is. It's encircled. 03:34.23 archpodnet Okay. 03:37.52 Alan Cross Now you would think that something that's simple would not have much gravitas but it certainly does um in in Mesoamerica in indigenous cosmology. 03:44.72 archpodnet Oh. 03:55.44 Alan Amongst what we call the nawaddle. There's a term for this thing. It's called Nawa O Lean which means for movement and there's many names for this. It's a quatrefoil. It's a quinsunk. Um and it means perpetual movement of the universe. 04:02.98 archpodnet Okay. 04:12.74 archpodnet Okay. 04:14.58 Alan It means integrating and reintroducing the energy and infinite motions of the cosmos and if you look at ah the um aztec codices. They actually have a symbol. Which is called a nawa nawi oin and this represents the fifth age the fifth sun the um sort of ah you know it's a deep time uts tech and sacred narrative and it's it is. 04:35.19 archpodnet Okay. 04:49.89 archpodnet Ah. 04:50.82 Alan It links with a one of the most important creation stories that you can have for a culture. It's um, you know so it's all that and much more. So the the story goes. 04:58.30 archpodnet Okay, yeah. 05:07.68 Alan For the aztecs that all the gods had gathered to sacrifice themselves and create a new age the world and the sun had already been created but it would only be through sacrifice that the sun would be able to be set into motion and time and we had these. Ah. 5 sacrificial volunteers that were going to do this. They would have one of them would have to jump into the fire but none of them really wanted to do that. But the the smallest and humblest of them was the one that decided to jump into the flames. 05:32.76 archpodnet Um. 05:46.69 Alan And was transformed into the sun and set the sun into motion through his sacrifice. But as that but as they leaped into the fire and became the sun. The sun didn't have enough momentum or energy to can. 05:52.36 archpodnet Wow. 06:06.70 Alan To move in the heavens so they had to assemble all 4 or 5 of these ah you know volunteers or pilgrims to help lift up the sky. 06:08.71 archpodnet Um. 06:25.17 Alan And move the sun into the heavens so it could perform its regular movements. So what we think what we think what we So what we think about constantly for those that are connected to the celestial movements. 06:31.65 archpodnet Wow. Okay. 06:42.81 Alan Of the sun and the moon and the stars is when the sun finishes up its travels which is at the ah winter solstice Sunrise it stops in the heavens its movement Stops. It sits in the same place for several days and that is what's called the winter solstice and during the winter solstice was when they when these several groups inaugurated or commemorated this phenomenon and they would have what's called the New. Fire ceremony and the new fire ceremony is when they would you know charge up and get the movement going again and continue the ah world and its natural cycles. Keep. 07:21.88 archpodnet Okay. 07:39.74 Alan Keep the cycles going and that was ah that was something that was considered to be 1 of the most sacred of times and that was December Twenty first or twenty second and since it was a pagan holiday euro-americans decided that. 07:44.00 archpodnet Um. 07:53.76 archpodnet Hello. 07:58.18 Alan That would be a good date for Christmas and so they created a ceremony that would vie with the pagan holiday and so December Twenty Fifth is now our Christmas holiday. 08:10.68 archpodnet Right? Wow there you go So how does this all lead back to the ah encapsulated cross then and when you say cross too. You said ah a horizontal and a vertical line. You know when you say cross I imagine like a Christian cross but do we mean that. 08:25.55 Alan Um, right. 08:26.37 archpodnet An offset cross like that with 2 different linked lines or more of a plus sign. Okay, yeah. 08:28.80 Alan More of a plus sign. That's what it's cost. It looks like a plus sign and when I went to my catholic church today and I looked up. They had an exact replica of this symbol with a circle around it at a plus sign. So. 08:44.41 archpodnet Um, wow. 08:48.16 Alan It's still there to to this very day and it's it takes a central place in many ah churches and many um, many representations. Um, they call it the Saint St Andrews cross they call it a maltese cross. 08:50.10 archpodnet Interesting. 09:01.64 archpodnet Ah. 09:07.13 Alan But else did they call it a fourpedal flower. It's a four week butterfly. Um, what else it says the quiintessential symbol of what's called the fifth Era Now this um. 09:07.95 archpodnet Ah. 09:23.53 archpodnet Um. 09:26.20 Alan Symbol is sometimes called at Oline O L L I N it's the glyph of movement and transformation now there's a flower that grows in Mexico it has 4 petals in a center. 09:32.24 archpodnet Okay, um. 09:44.60 Alan And that's considered to be the equivalent representation of this oleen now if we are looking or wondering about the catholicism and christianity and now that sort of interdigitates. With the native world on the tilma of Juan Diego in the representation of the virgin of guadalupe over her womb is a nawi a lean, a quinsunk. It's exactly the same picture. It's this 4 our-pedaled flower with the center in it. It's a symbolic way that the indians understood that she's the mother of the sun god the sun god was in her womb and he was the sole author and giver of life. This was a this was sometimes you know identified as the flower of the sun. 10:31.59 archpodnet Um. 10:39.60 archpodnet Okay. 10:41.91 Alan Now now. All of this is is interesting and and and ah you know of of relevance. But if you look on the rock art in California in the great basin all throughout the Eastern Mojave desert and even into Southern California you're going to see this symbol again and again and again it um it is it is something that is I guess part and parcel of the cognitive map of the universe of the native people even though it's it's also part of Christian symbol. 11:03.55 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:20.90 Alan Symbolism I Believe it's more popular and more central to native people. 11:24.54 archpodnet Yeah, well probably older too I would imagine. Yeah. 11:29.36 Alan Much older, much much older I think it goes back thousands and thousands of years and and I bet if we if we identified it. It probably ah is part and parcel of some of the earliest symbols that we might have. In um, going back 5 six seven thousand years or more. 11:47.16 archpodnet Ah. 11:49.30 archpodnet Yeah I would imagine I mean it's a relatively simple symbol to construct so that helps right? and and like you said it it can be. It has a lot of meaning depending on what you look at it. You know how you look at it and and who you are so. 12:01.91 Alan Right? So so if you think about this this symbol it is related to and so and similar to if not 1 and the same as what's called the broken cross. It's this circular symbol. 12:11.90 archpodnet Um. 12:16.90 archpodnet Okay. 12:21.18 Alan Cross in a circle. It looks like a counterclockwise swastika and it's our whirling logs and you see them I've seen them several times in the Kosos and they're all over baskets from the Southern California indians and also it's ah it. 12:24.51 archpodnet Well. 12:40.68 Alan It is depicted in the in in the Navajo language as well. So it's it's sometimes called the cosmic cross the solar cross and when you see this these 4 parts that represents of course the 4 basic elements of life. 12:41.57 archpodnet Um. 12:44.00 archpodnet Oh. Yeah. 13:00.48 Alan Air Wind Fire Water Earth Yeah air wind represents life fire is warmth and light water is sustenance of life and Earth of course is that terrestrial plane where the humans abide and that's provided with the life-giving plants and animals. 13:01.67 archpodnet Grant. 13:16.20 archpodnet Okay, yeah, that is amazing. 13:19.36 Alan Amazing. So for the for the hopi they have something they call the tequa wheel and that's definitely the same same element and it means ah together with all nations. We protect both land and life and hold the world in. 13:31.78 archpodnet Um. 13:37.40 archpodnet Okay, well. 13:37.71 Alan Balance That's what the tech what wheel was all about so with with this na we olene. It's a symbol of movement. It represents the congregation of and generation of of energy. But it's also diametrically opposed. It attracts and repels at the same time. It's in constant movement and rotation. It mimics Celestial movements of the heavenly bodies. It's the principle of integration dualism and intermediation of opposing forces. 14:11.83 archpodnet Okay, yeah. 14:17.50 Alan Ah, all that in a nickel buy a cup of coffee side. Go ahead. 14:21.40 archpodnet Ah, all right? Well how about how about we take a break right? there and ah you know before we go to break again. Check the links in the show notes for more information on this topic and where you can find the video or where you can find the audio depending on where you're looking at this. And also in the show notes is Alan's website where you can find a lot more of his resources and we have a link to his Patreon where you can support some of these efforts and and help keep all this going. So with that. We will take a break and see on other side back in a minute. 14:46.73 Alan How we doing. 14:51.96 archpodnet Okay, stop.