00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode one zero seven and we are talking about an indexical symbol Allen calls it an encapsulated cross. So let's continue diving into the subject. Dr Garffriendel 00:15.74 alan Well Professor Webster one of the amazing things about this with this indexical cross this encircle cross. This symbol is that it's associated with what's called the new fire ceremony. The new fire ceremony is a ceremony that is associated with the snake dance of the hopi and it's also associated with the um, the famous Aztec winter solstice festival where they actually see. 00:41.13 archpodnet Okay. 00:53.33 alan In shadow the snake crawling up the side of the pyramid as well Now what's also amazing is I believe that I see depicted in Koso in little pagliff Canyon a panel that also. 00:56.63 archpodnet Um. 01:12.65 alan Bears The indication of this new fire ceremony. It's um what I might call is a meta narrativerrative. It's ah it's a time of renewal reinauguration of the sun and and in each of these situations. There's a creation narrative. 01:24.38 archpodnet Um. 01:32.59 alan So I mentioned the creation narrative of the aztecs. There's also a creation narrative of a sun story for the we chill the we chi are a indigenous people that have kept their culture alive very conservative people. They're famous for the um pilgrimage to the to to garner peyote. 01:49.39 archpodnet Okay. 01:52.10 alan Which they call their their grandmother and they live in a very southernmost edge of Texas but main mainly North Mexico so in the time before time their ancestors abided in the underworld which was located in the west. 02:10.33 archpodnet Um. 02:10.94 alan Time without form divide of human kind and shrouded in continuous night. The moon was the singular illumination. The prima primordial ancestors queried grandmother growth mcaway what they must do so the sun would emerge. Decision was made so that one of the 5 pilgrims would perform what was called an auto sacrificerifice 4 of the 5 attempted but failed but the fifth chose to ah cast himself into the fire dropped through 5 levels of the netherworld battled ferocious beast. Attempted to kill and eat him. But after 5 days he reached dawn mountain burst forth through the cave door and in doing so was transformed into the sun father since his powers had been depleted. The sun could not rise high enough in the heavens. And it began to descend the sun began to burn up and melt everything on earth but the 5 ancestors reassembled to raise the heavens and the four were placed in the corners of the cosmos with one in the center. So the sun would now reside in its proper place. 03:23.29 archpodnet Um, wow. 03:24.92 alan And that's the story of the weechel very similar to that of the of the ah of the aztecs as well. So as we as we continue we have a picture on a pyramidal boulder in little little petrickly canyon. 03:31.75 archpodnet Um, indeed. 03:44.72 alan And here's our 5 primordial pilgrims with their hands up in the air holding something that looks like a parachute and I think it's a a cloud and then in the center of their circle is a another figure. 03:57.31 archpodnet Okay. 04:04.12 alan Holding the snakes and above and it's above a lunar crescent moon. So these ah, it's what I call the skybear Bearer and the origin of the sun panel and this would date to maybe about say 2000 Bc but four thousand years ago so what we see in this picture. The number 5 is a very significant number to the to the aztecs and to the nahwaddle people as well as the people. Ah, the we chill and it's been as a symbol for man meeting god god meeting man divinity and transcendence harmony and beauty and the one true god so harmonizing these opposites is one of the key metaphors of what's called this quinsunk this quatrefoil this. 04:51.80 archpodnet No. 05:01.59 alan Nahu o lean symbol and it it tries to intersect or or identify with compound metaphors embedding what's called the poly seamus the many ah meanings all in 1 heaven and earth. Day and night good and evil morning and evening stars which is venus man becoming god and god becoming man sound familiar. 05:29.94 archpodnet We indeed? yeah. 05:34.76 alan So it's rather remarkable that this symbol can be so interconnected with so many various cultures and have so much impact and substance to it. So go ahead. 05:51.60 archpodnet Yeah, and similar meaning too similar meaning too. That's what I'm yeah. 05:53.62 alan You had a question no and similar meanings. Yes, similar meanings when you think about Jesus, you're thinking about the reincarnation man becoming god god becoming man when you're thinking about resurrection and transformation coming of age. Um, ah the turning of the seasons. It's all interconnected. It's all interrelated and the more one thinks about this the more sense it all makes and especially for pre-contact or pre-literate societies I just talked about this earlier. 06:16.86 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:28.26 archpodnet Um. 06:31.62 alan These people had a whole different association or understanding vision. Ah connection with the Earth and the environment and you know that right? How how did they? How did that differ. 06:44.28 archpodnet Right? yeah. 06:51.11 alan From the way we work today. 06:51.56 archpodnet Well I mean not very many people today have any connection with anything outside of their you know their house and their job. So yeah, yeah. 06:58.82 alan Right? right? right? and and and when we're dealing with native people or dealing with this pre-contact civilization. All they knew was the land the trees the birds the rocks it was all part and parcel. 07:12.48 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:18.40 alan Of who they were and what they were and what they did and what they learned and their culture. What I've what I've learned in the small amount of time I've done on this planet. Um, often native people do not. They don't talk much. Okay. 07:22.66 archpodnet Um. 07:37.41 alan They don't words are words are you know, not that important to them. It's it's words right? They're very fanciful. They're they're like wisps in the wind they listen and and the listening ah the the things they hear. 07:37.91 archpodnet Um. 07:44.20 archpodnet Um. 07:46.35 archpodnet Right? right. 07:55.99 alan And the things they sense and feel are sometimes much more important than these fanciful words we we think are so relevant. Do you agree. 08:05.95 archpodnet Indeed I do yeah yeah, I've actually you know as a founder of the archeology podcast network and an editor of most of the shows. Um, one of the shows we have called heritage voices actually our host Jesse a quinto. Um, she. Interviews a lot of native americans and I got to say you know with a lot of people that I that I edit I will take out like vocal crutches and pauses and things like that. But it's more of ah, it's more of a common thing for for native speakers native americans speaking on a show like this to have those. Longer pauses and really pick and choose the words that they're going to use rather than having more vocal crutches I've noticed. So yeah, um, I've just noticed that in in podcast editing. 08:50.22 alan Yeah, and when you talk to native people they look at you and they wait and they want to see what you're going to say and how you're going to say it and how do you look And how do you feel and what's your what's your deal you know and then. 09:03.25 archpodnet Um, right right. 09:09.80 alan When you read their narratives. They emphasize the sounds and the feelings that are associated with the place and when you go to these places you hear things and see things and sense things. 09:14.90 archpodnet M. 09:29.67 alan It's a drama. It's a transcendence. It's an overwhelming emotional experience. Do you ever get that when you're when you're there at a rock art site. 09:33.95 archpodnet Indeed. 09:41.63 archpodnet Yeah, but that I'm an archeologist I almost get that it I get that of lots of sites. You know when you're trying to just put yourself in the moment you know, um and really kind of feel it. That's um, yeah, that is it's It's a really interesting experience I Guess yeah, um. 09:44.40 alan Yes, yes. 09:57.65 archpodnet You know, real real quick. 1 thing I was thinking about with the I guess similar definitions of especially this encapsulated across similar meaning across cultures really across the world in in some cases I'm sure we see that with other. Symbols that are of a more simple nature right? Not your more complex ones. Those probably have a lot more complexity locally and regionally but a lot of your more simple symbols that reflect nature and they reflect you know some somewhat everyday circumstances. We must see those reflected in rock art across the planet. Um, and and probably have similar meaning although we can't really know what that is in most cases. Yeah. 10:33.61 alan Yes, absolutely. But but we can't we can in a way gather or garner when looking at the images ask oneself. What are we feeling? What are we sensing what emotion does this bring out. 10:46.46 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:53.90 alan Is it awe Is it fear is it joy is it sadness. Is it a sense of connection with the supernatural or the divine. Um, there's an image. There's an image in little petrickliff Canyon where they have this this creature. 11:04.96 archpodnet Maha. 11:12.42 alan It looks like a woman perhaps coming out of a crack in the rock right? And it's it's surprising. It's abrupt. It's in some sense beautiful as well. And if you look very closely and move your head. 11:16.27 archpodnet Yeah, um. 11:24.84 archpodnet Nice. 11:31.94 alan The left and down. You will see a small figure with his hands holding them up to the sky as a supplicant. What's a supplicant Allen it's a it's an individual that is entreating. 11:43.66 archpodnet Um, ah yeah. 11:50.45 alan This this divine or this deity this supernatural for their aid and their help in overcoming the challenges of life. 11:54.88 archpodnet Okay. 12:00.44 archpodnet Okay, well you know what that sounds like a good point to take a break and then come back and wrap up this discussion on the other side. We'll be back in a minute all right. Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode 1 Oh 7 and we are gonna. Wrap up this discussion not just about the encapsulated cross. But you know other symbols and and their meaning and and nature so continue. Please. 12:25.19 alan Yeah, so as I was mentioning earlier if you look on baskets and even if you look on on the rocks themselves this encapsulated cross has this fourfold. 12:36.72 archpodnet Um. 12:42.71 alan Or Fivefold symbolism and one of the ways. It's represented is with this backwards swastika. You know first time I saw that it it reared me and I said why am I So seeing a swastika here in in the aboriginal way and then I found out that oh before they came up with the swastika. 12:52.48 archpodnet Bright. 13:02.50 alan The indians had it but it was going the other direction. Well amongst the koya Southern California indians this is known as the wheel of life and it it represents the 4 ages of man woman. 13:05.56 archpodnet Um. 13:09.95 archpodnet Okay. 13:20.35 alan It's in constant motion. It has forearms being birth youth maturity and death. So that's rather interesting as well. Here it is on the baskets here. It is for the Navajo and here it is in koso rockard. It's all over the place. 13:24.22 archpodnet Um, okay, that is. 13:39.80 alan And I it's it's also a symbol one of the primary symbols for the group of indians in the Eastern Mojave Desert who are agriculturists known as the mojave or the keitan and the mojave the Mojave Indians 13:55.85 archpodnet Um. 13:58.71 alan Were agriculturists and they also were very lean fighters. They were rather aggressive in Warriors and they also were the famous people who were called the Mohave runners what they did was they imported trade items. 14:11.28 archpodnet Ah. 14:16.69 alan From the american southwest and they would carry those on their backs running across the mojave desert from the Colorado River to the coast there amongst the chew mesh. It would take them take them ah about a week or two weeks to 14:30.95 archpodnet Um, wow. 14:35.70 alan And they and they kept running day and night and they would get there and they had cotton blankets and they had other items along those lines and and then they would trade but the but the major symbol that you see in the petoglyph sites of the mojave. These are. Individuals who brought belonged to a different ethtolinguistic affiliation. The humans while you m a n they had. They had this encapsulated or encircled cross and it had a very special place in their cosmology because. 15:02.97 archpodnet Ah. 15:13.47 alan What it represented was the morning and evening stars and also the constant Also the the the concept of resurrection and. 15:20.81 archpodnet Um, ah. 15:28.73 archpodnet Um. 15:30.99 alan Transmogrification and rebirth and all of this because to them their major deity which was called mustambo and he was found etched on the ground with the ah geoglyphs. And both sides of the Colorado desert. Um, this is the being that of course incorporated or employed the ah concept of resurrection in their creation and their creation narratives. So this. 15:48.25 archpodnet Now. 16:01.61 archpodnet Um, okay. 16:06.75 alan This was a central and important symbol for the folks of the mojave and it's 1 thing that's very distinctive and central and prominent in every rock art site. You're going to see in the Eastern Mojave Desert 16:22.11 archpodnet That's interesting and you know something I was thinking about because we we had a little side check going here between segments you mentioned spanish and I've been using duolingo for the last. Well I think it was seven hundred and twenty days this morning to do spanish every day a little bit. 16:35.12 alan Um, yes, ah right. 16:38.11 archpodnet Because I never I never took spanish when I was younger and now my wife and I are going to go spend a month in Greece in October and so I've kind of pivoted to Greek just to see what that's like and it makes me wonder it makes me wonder you know when you look at these. 16:52.23 alan Um, ah. 16:56.16 archpodnet These symbols together and especially learning the greek and you know Greek is one of the oldest you know, continuously used languages in the world right? I mean it's just goes back almost twenty one hundred years and you look at some of the symbols and and the groups of letters. The groups of letters that make up certain sounds that that make up the words. 17:04.87 alan It's earth. 17:14.83 archpodnet You know you'd put these groups together and they mean something as a whole well something I've never thought about with rock art really and I'm sure you have and and other rock art scholars is something like this encapsulated cross does This is this often found in association with other stuff is it by itself. Is. It. Can you commonly say well if I find this then I know this is somewhere Nearby. You know what? I mean. 17:38.60 alan Let me yeah, let me speak to that in just ah, a simple way. Um, there's an image in the cosos. It's in the Monster Canyon that I was telling you about and there is a. 17:50.40 archpodnet Ah. 17:54.93 alan Always like it when there's something that I I know what it is So there's ah, a thunderbird mo motif. It's rather obvious it's got wings outstretched and it's there and looking right at you and instead of a face. It has it and it has a ah encapsulated cross right? there. 17:55.49 archpodnet Yeah. M. 18:12.64 archpodnet Um, wow. 18:13.52 alan Front and center and above the above the image besides the Thunderbird right looking right? at you. The rain is coming down. It's got rain rain rain all all around it and of course to those that don't know about the the Thunderbird. That was a ah ah mythological animal human spirit bigger than the biggest bird that existed and it brought on with its with its wings. It made the heavens rumble and roar with thunder and lightning. And brought on the rain and so so there is a there's a site but I have never seen except in in pictures that exists in Saline Valley which is one of the valleys right near Death Valley one of the. 18:52.97 archpodnet Um, wow. 19:09.35 archpodnet Yeah. 19:10.16 alan Driest places on Earth and there's a um, a white to gray to beige volcanic escarpment that goes on for many many meters and on that escarpment. 19:27.21 alan Are 8 huge examples of these wonderful eagle-like thunderbirds and besides that they've been depicted or placed. 19:39.11 archpodnet Um, wow. 19:45.24 alan So that when that rains the rain spout the rain drippings goes right down the center of each of those images and and interspersed interfingered with these images of the rain deity. 19:51.25 archpodnet Um, well. 20:04.54 alan Is fertility symbols ah reproductive elements of females. Ah and ah bighorn sheep copulating and and ah and all the rest and it's all there I mean it's obviously about. 20:06.15 archpodnet Um. 20:14.58 archpodnet Of course. 20:23.48 alan Fertility and life and rebirth and you know exposed just there so you can ah obviously grab onto it. Um I think that's why I like rock art so much. It's just it's it's fun and it's interesting and endlessly engaging. 20:29.15 archpodnet Um, yeah, wow. 20:43.12 alan Because the more you think about it almost the deeper. You can get and the more connections and relationships and ah insights and epiphanies one can can come to does that make any sense. 20:57.96 archpodnet It does and and that's probably why I mean you start hearing the the phrase rock art being used less and less right and in favor of like rock drawings or something else like that right? um or just the. 21:06.25 alan Yes, yes. 21:10.36 archpodnet The actual archeological definition definitions of pictograph or you know, um you know something like that. So um, and and part of that is because the word art implies something that may not be the intention. It's It's almost more of a language. It's more of ah a symbolic language. You know what I mean Um, which. 21:12.90 alan Right? right. 21:25.96 alan It is it is it is it is indeed and that and that's that's ah, that's the subject for another podcast. They just they just had a news item that shows that someone believes they've decoded. 21:29.25 archpodnet Yeah. 21:43.50 alan Some of the oldest rock art as to what some of the recurrent symbols mean. But so yeah, go ahead. 21:49.25 archpodnet I'll I'll tell you what we can talk about that because we've got an episode of the archeot tech podcast coming out tomorrow talking about 3 3 news articles all related to using Ai to basically suss out something that. 21:55.26 alan Oh well. 22:01.43 alan Oh my word. 22:04.73 archpodnet Humans are just not able to see you know one of them was new nasca lines found in Peru um using training ai to look at images and Ai found I mean very obvious patterns where have been missed for 200 years um using ai to read cuneiform. 22:08.19 alan Um, really, ah. 22:15.70 alan Wow! yeah. 22:21.38 archpodnet Tablets to translate them straight to english from sumerian and akkadian um, and then you know using Ai to do a number of things so it wouldn't surprise me, you know that we could use Ai to to find other shapes that we maybe didn't think were significant but I'm not sure about. 22:29.55 alan Wow. 22:37.64 archpodnet The actual interpretation because we don't even know what they mean you have to train the Ai with something right? So you have to teach it what you have to say this symbol means this and this symbol means this find more of those and tell me what it all means. But if you don't know those starting points. It's hard to make it continue. 22:41.27 alan Right. 22:55.19 alan And and in some ways we do know what certain symbols mean as though I've you know, professed today and so if we go from the known to the unknown which is sometimes called the ethnohistoric method or the ethnographic analogy. Um. 22:57.20 archpodnet Sure yeah. 23:07.30 archpodnet Right. 23:11.70 alan I Think we we could be surprised at what we might learn or what better questions we might be asking. Um, yeah I think the rocks can begin to speak talking stones right. 23:18.70 archpodnet Um. 23:23.59 archpodnet Exactly exactly so all right? Well any final words on this topic before we end the show today. 23:35.62 alan Um I just I just think going to rock guard sites and studying. This subject is one that is endlessly engaging very mysterious and a heck of a lot of fun. 23:44.74 archpodnet Um. 23:51.72 archpodnet Indeed well said all right? Well with that again look down at your show notes or if you're on Youtube take a look at the notes for this video and um, check out Alan's website and Patreon and he's got books. He's got he mentioned talking stone which is also a video that you can get so. 23:52.42 alan See you next week on the flip flop gang. 24:04.18 alan Great episode, great. 24:09.40 archpodnet Ah, check that out and with that we will see you guys next time with another great episode of the rock art podcast. Thanks a lot. 24:18.76 alan Then.