00:00.00 archpodnet Go. 00:01.00 Alan Hey there in archeology podcast land this is your host for the second segment. Dr Alllan Garfio I got Willie pink here who's ah, quite a historical fellow who's going to talk about the genealogy in the direction things are going and we're going to have an interesting conversation on on. Mitigative Archaeology and what all that means and how that relates back to rockard go ahead. Will he I've go let you open is open it up. Ask me a question and we'll throw it back and forth. 00:32.49 William Ask you a question. Okay I mean um, first of all Define Mitigation archeology. What is it. 00:37.61 Alan Well I I think what we're talking about there is with cqa and with nepa we're given a mandate to first of all identify and evaluate archeological sites to see which ones are significant and that's. That's really, ah, quite a quite a mouthful but we try to do that. Then we see if they're eligible for the national register of historic places that gives us these criteria and then assuming it is then we have to find some way to deal with minimize. Adverse effects of a project and that is and and I've been involved in some of the larger projects of my lifetime including multimillion dollar projects two of them now. Um, where where we have a um, an adverse effect. On the landscape on the ground and we're trying to figure out some way to protect preserve or or minimize that effect and um, sometimes that that that literally ah you know works or sort of doesn't work. It's a head-on. 01:53.49 Alan With the native Americans trying to deal with values that they have versus the way the law has been interpreted and I can get into the details of that. How's that for please. 02:03.47 William Yeah, let let me kind of let me respond to that and stating that I know that in in the Southern counties. There is now more land set aside for rats than there is for Indian people. Okay. 02:16.50 Alan Ah I did not I did not know that. Okay, yeah, yeah, oh my word. Wow Yeah, yeah, yeah. 02:18.78 William Yeah, when you look at Multispecies Critical Habitat you know out there and it actually bars us from gathering in those areas as well too And that's that's become real upsetting is because we go we've we run up against locked gates fences. No trespassing in areas that we've been using for quite a while. 02:33.50 Alan Yeah, yeah, so so there's there's that alone So that's ah, that's an issue of course it is indeed. Yes, so. 02:36.25 William So and that's part of mitigation as well. It's part of the mitigation as well. In terms of trading here's another example of where you get. Let's say an eighty acre site and a kangaroo rat is noticed down there. So what they do is they say well we're gonna we're going to put aside an acre up here for the rat. Well how do you know the rats move up there. It's living where it is because that's where it wants to live you know and later on when they don't find any rats and they develop that last Ac or 2 you know. 02:54.89 Alan Um, ah right? ah. 03:03.57 Alan Ah, exactly yeah, that's it's it's it's it's silly and it's ignorant and it's it's offensive. Absolutely yeah, it is. It is sure that next. 03:12.19 William But at the same time on the part of the developer. It's intentional. You know in it's in the 70 s we we can in the 70 s we could never vision. Yeah. 03:20.64 Alan They're trying to find find. It's all about the money. It's about the politics. It's who you know and and what so so let me give you this s realal life example. Okay, so we're putting in one hundred and ten wind turbines in Kelso Valley and every place we try to put those wind turbines in There's an archeological site. So the native people would would like to see us preserve those sites protect them cover them over and leave them alone so we um, we attempted to do that cover them over. Somehow protect them avoid them if possible. Um, and and we were able to do that on maybe twenty five thirty percent of the sites some we couldn't some were on on. Ah you know stone on rock and we found historic beads. Glass trade beads from the 1850 s right there on top of those rocks and I was recommending that we collect those beads and um, somehow mitigate the adverse effects of the development. The native people thought that was abhorrent. And horrendous that those were sacred sites. That's where the native people would pray and have vision quest and other things along those lines and um that that would be and that they should move the turb but the turbines. Um. 04:56.28 Alan And I was in the middle of that one and ah needless to say the natives did not win that issue and and um from the stand standpoint of their heritage values. they they ah really um, did not approve. Of the resolution of that issue go head Willie that's a classic case right? go ahead? yeah. 05:18.27 William Well and that's um, it's it. It is in a sense and but and I need to go back to what I was starting to say because it kind of in that same area. In the seven days we would actually get counties degree that you know a portion of the property would be preserved and the reason being mostly because it involved rock art and a lot of these sites in Southern California are associated with rock outcroppings. We did not see that they would be building huge machines that would grind those rocks up later on. 05:39.40 Alan Right. 05:46.11 Alan Ah, right. 05:48.36 William And so that's been occurring at a rapid rate in Southern California where what used to be preserved simply because they were rocks now those rocks are becoming road base. You know been state of California past mara which allows developers to go in without a necessary permit for for mining and extraction of gravels. 05:56.30 Alan Well. 06:07.99 William Go ahead and develop a sound gravel operation and be able to not only just use it for their site project but also export as well. So they're exempt and that and what's funny about that is it came on the heels of the passing legislation to protect Pilot K Nob for the qshhan. I don't think they realize the impact it had on us here. You know Pilot knob was preserved and then we lost I would say probably good 50% of the sites. Um, that were preserved as a result of being located within the rocks. 06:42.30 Alan That's terrible and I wasn't aware of any of this actually? um and I don't and I don't think I don't think we have the and you're aware of this I don't think we have the political consciousness The the particular. 06:46.44 William Um, while they bring out their Ex there you know. 06:59.94 Alan Historic preservation laws that have teeth and accountability to to deal with some of these issue. Do we. 07:07.13 William Um, not on the level that we can you know compete with the building industry association the cbcbi you know they're ah they're a strong force and and without their support on any kind of change. You're never going to get anywhere. That's. 07:14.47 Alan Developers right? right? right. 07:24.80 Alan Um, okay. 07:27.90 William There are some things you know we do have within our legislature now James Ramos who's a Serrano Indian and um so he tries his best but again he has to walk that minefield of having to try and please everybody. You know it's not an easy thing to get legislation through. 07:31.32 Alan Yeah, yeah. 07:44.60 Alan No. 07:45.78 William You know and you and you never know when you're going to be ambush at the very end after you spend almost two years hard work trying to get something and those and you know the Uc regents used to be very good at doing that just sitting back and waiting their moment and saying well in the name of science and then all of a sudden everything would become unraveled. You know. 08:03.44 Alan Ah. 08:04.86 William So it's it's so getting people on the ground to understand that is is one of the difficult things as well too and especially in I and a fight for like trying to oppose wind generators. Um, it's how do you explain to them that there's overriding economic concerns at the moment. 08:16.45 Alan Right. 08:24.70 William And mitigation isn't going to happen because all they got to do is come back and and say look we need the electricity and this is where it's going to be and and too bad for everything else. You know though and that's the way the laws are written. 08:35.75 Alan Right? right. 08:43.17 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah, so there's there's that side to it as well. I I absolutely understand that and I think you know my experience has been that sometimes there's a. 08:43.90 William So you know. 09:02.37 Alan There's an influx of funding for native people that comes on the tailed or the feet of some of these wind or solar projects with respect to native american monitoring I trained like 50 native american monitors. For this, you know 6 or $ 7000000 hundred and one wind turbine projects and they made 50 to $100000 for that six month or year long period. But the longevity or the the windfall stops there. There's no. Economic or ongoing means of sort of tethering or bringing in something that would create some sort of an economic force or be of great plusing or any sort of positive impact to the wind and. Solar generating facility. You understand what I'm saying. 10:02.66 William You see it comes back to and and just listening to your talk and this brings back a lot of memories is why is your voice paramount to mine. You know if those are my ancestors If that's my ancestral territory. Why are you? an archeologist allowed to come in and have a. 10:15.64 Alan Right. 10:22.26 William Voice bigger than mine more authoritative than mine and you know Bob is as simple as that all of sudden I'm pushed to the bottom bottom side and I see that a lot occurring now as they don't even bring native american people in until after they've done their walkover surveys so I'm supposed to trust. 10:38.36 Alan Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no yeah, no year and and that's ah, that's a very good good point because when I've done this kind of work this compliance work The and. 10:42.10 William People that they you know that what they're telling me in their report is true and accurate. We find out. It's not. 10:57.72 Alan Environmental work both for ciqa and nepa. We almost never have native americans that are involved with the survey portion of the initiative. Um, that might change somewhat. It's just also. You know, bringing this full circle. There was a book just published from Australia that serves as sort of an example of how to bring in native the native perspective the indigenous perspective. Of the cosmology of the understanding of the environment to a study of rock art and this is the first brill book that sort of does that as an example where you have ah a full resident authentic voice. Of the native perspective of what those images function as mean, the tether the religiosity the cosmology, the animism everything else that is inherent in that and bringing that in as a. As a primary vehicle to a better appreciation of call it rock art for what it is um and that's and that's interesting. You know what? I mean I mean it's nice. Nice to see but that but that's rarely done in the states. 12:23.65 William Yeah, no idea. 12:32.20 Alan I I think stafl has tried that in Nevada and Arizona to some extent. But um. 12:36.87 William Well and and let's go back to the reason why it's rarely been in the states is because you know Allen during the seventy s there was so much force out there saying um you know these people don't know anything. 12:48.10 Alan Right? right? right. 12:51.16 William You know why should we consult with native americans they don't know anything the people that are here today are not the same people that are representative in the past and via archaeology we had battled out all the way to show continuity. You know that's still an issue today. You know they came out with you. 12:59.70 Alan Right. 13:07.24 Alan It is still and its it is to look look at the you know the the recent work that we had to do for Ah, the discovery of some of the human remains and trying to to deal with that those situation and we have the same situation to its very day. With respect to to dealing with um she's big with um you know with the academic personnel with the academic personnel. Ah who call themselves scholars. Who are directly antagonistic or you know directly opposed to native American concerns. Um from some of the top universe go ahead. 13:48.76 William Well it it becomes a it becomes a different level in terms of you are not an archeologist until you learn to be an archeologist correct. Yeah, you might mean well you. 13:59.87 Alan Go ahead I didn't catch that last piece. Sorry. 14:06.72 William You weren't born an archeologist so you had to go through a learning process and that's that's true for Indian people I don't care an Indian person isn't born. You know cultural is something that you learn. But when you take away your teeth their teachers and everything else you know. 14:07.36 Alan No, that's right? Yes, yes, you're right. 14:18.55 Alan Yeah. 14:25.31 William That becomes an issue but then all of a sudden The archeologist gets to say oh that person doesn't know anything because guess what we killed off their ancestors so we sent them to school and beat it out of them. So why shouldn't we at the barer dealing with these people because we're pretty sure they don't know anything about their culture. You know. 14:34.51 Alan Right? right. 14:43.95 William But you're going to a group at that time especially in the 70 s people were terrified about talking about their culture because they understood how their parents were beaten in school and and it just made you seem like a lower class citizen if you spoke the language or if you did anything or talked about some of the things that you would do culturally. 14:48.37 Alan Yeah. 15:02.50 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're exactly right? It's not very different from people who you know I'm I'm ah hail from the Jewish tradition and it was similar to the to the Jews who didn't want to be Jewish because they were afraid and they yeah. They somehow mask themselves off as something else so that they could not be identified as having that ancestry. So It's not not any different. Um, do you think that's changed any. 15:35.41 William Um, unfortunately the people that are up in the pre ranks still kind of have that view and vision. Yeah, unfortunately when you get into people at kroeber who make statements like there's nothing else to learn about a California indian because I've you know I've done it all. 15:48.70 Alan Done it all. Yeah and and the even even the anthropologists who have studied and appreciated and documented particular indigenous groups say the most. 15:51.48 William You know, but so we're still. 16:06.47 Alan Ignorant and stupid things like you know there is no more ah of this particular group because they they no longer exist and you know that's that's in in print right? So ah, it's yeah, some of the. 16:18.28 William Yeah. 16:26.34 Alan Some of the worst people are some of the most scholarly which is not much of a help either. Well on that Joyous note go ahead if didn't like what. 16:31.59 William And when you wanted to get rid of somebody that you didn't like voice well when up in central valley in the foothalls when you didn't want somebody interfering with your project. You declared them to be Nissan on not miw walk. 16:46.70 Alan I see I see. 16:49.86 William And I actually saw that happen you know and that was ah just because that person had a loud enough voice knew enough that it was going to interfere with those persons walking away with their million dollar mitigation fee. 17:01.63 Alan Well yeah. 17:05.13 William So They just said oh that person doesn't know anything. They're actually nisan on So it's ah it's been a rough world. It's been a rough world in terms of trying to bring the 2 entities together who should be. Trying to work to achieve the same thing and as I say every time a site is destroyed. It's like ripping, it's ripping pages out of our history. So It's ah and actually what we see now more today is. 17:23.56 Alan Yeah, yeah destroyed And yeah. 17:42.70 William How populous California was how many indian people actually interfere and that was that goes back to krober and them again too. Florence Shippeck and lowell bean um start out with this number of 300000 people here at the time of contact I would just. 17:50.21 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 17:59.80 William Based on the number of sites alone. You're probably looking at closer to 2000000 if not 5000000 people that were settled in here and then because we always look at well how you know they eat acorns. Well there's enough acorns to feed 300000 people and g a I a genius and there's three hundred Thousand Indians at the time of contact. 18:02.21 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18:16.36 Alan Right? exactly. 18:18.49 William You know, um hotwash and then all they did was back out the number because Kroeber you know he was hired to do that work in terms of guessstimating the population of Indians for the claims case and so another person then because I I got to avoid names here took that number and just had it. 18:27.99 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18:37.63 William Divided it into the number of acres and californians at oh it takes six acres to support one indian person in here in California. 18:43.33 Alan Yeah, well see on the flip flop gang. We'll pick it up next. Thanks.