00:00.00 archpodnet Building. 00:00.00 Alan Hey gang we're back. We're going to try to try to pick it up a little bit to hire in the stream and talk about rock art and maybe some of the more positive things that are going on vis-a-vis native California. Ah, initiative, go ahead. Willie Give give me give me give me something positive. 00:22.13 William Okay, ah well something positive I think we're beginning to see more preservation and and private properties where rock art is situated transference of property to like the mot preserve over and near the Paris area. Which is probably one of the better examples of rock art shelters and of that thing of quite ah quite a complex there. So Audie Murphy where some of the tribes got got avoid names and are actually taking stewardship over those properties and. 00:44.21 Alan Um, yeah. 00:54.56 Alan Okay. 00:57.56 William And actually getting involved in preservation and have some authority to deal with trespassers and such. Um, so we're seeing we're seeing more and more of this link up together to where we can enjoy that type of preservation and to where the public can enjoy it. 01:03.89 Alan That's fancy. That's fantastic. Yeah, um. 01:16.40 William Because there is some control on the situation when when we build houses up to the edge of these things. We also see a degradation of the sites. But at least the intent is there then I think it's up to organizations like California rock art foundation. It's up to tribes to kind of step in and and do that final element of preservation whether it be fencing. 01:23.48 Alan And. 01:35.46 William Sensors Cameras Whatever it may take you know to try and preserve some of these sites because whats are gone. They're gone. 01:41.46 Alan Yeah, yeah, which sites do you think are in desperate need of preservation and protection that you're aware of that ah needs need our attention. 01:57.54 William Gee you know we start with the inauos. The and tonos was a first national registered district in the United States it was the nomination was made by the heritageish mission in cooperation with Javon Ro he provided much of the aerial photography for that and was submission and it was a ah. 01:58.90 Alan Sure. 02:14.91 William Prode we submitted 500 elements of inaurios out there and and still the big area that's not been examined yet is Milkpedus Wash because that was the flow route for the Colorado river you know we keep going down this artificial route that the river's now been forced to go through. 02:24.10 Alan Okay. 02:32.53 William Ah, without really giving any concern to the possibility of loss of of geoglyphs in that milpeti wash area and also it's been partially destroyed by the activities of Patton during world war ii as well. You know all the tank activities you had a couple more. Um. 02:44.92 Alan Yeah, yeah. 02:50.90 William War games out there as well too. So I think it's reopening that situation and looking at it. How much damage has occurred I've I've revisited sites out there and I've seen where bulldozers were would drop their blades and intentionally go across some of the inauoss or geoglyphs and destroy them and so. 02:51.28 Alan Sure. 03:09.85 William Which goes to a greater question in terms of can they be restored can rock art. Be restored you know and I and I think this is something that needs to get into a discussion level and what does it mean Restoration is that it's in itself some way of degradation. Um. 03:15.67 Alan Right. 03:27.53 William By doing Restoration. A good example is chauca in and grinding rock which has had tremendous amount of petrolyphs on its surface but due to the fact that it's a carbonated limestone. It dissolves in rain and so a lot of those petroglyphs have disappeared. I Think the local Indian people should be allowed to take photographs or follow the remnants of what's visible on there and scor them back out a again so where they're visible to the public and visible to the tribal people ah rather than somebody just making a decision saying well they should just be allowed to die natural death. And wasn't an Indian decision that was a parks decision. You know? So Why did parks. 04:00.78 Alan Right? right? And and and we do and we and and we do know at least I know other people know as well that the native people would revere call it embellish if you will or. Somehow enhance the ancient designs and repeck them to bring out their power Correct. You've seen you've you've you've seen you've seen that haven't you so that happens very commonly. 04:28.66 William Ah, yeah I would personally I would say yes there are yeah. 04:39.29 Alan In ah, certainly in the in the Western Great basin or at least in the my own research area and so that seems to give us a genealogy of that activity that it wasn't to destroy but it was to enhance or Somehow. Ah, create the but by going back and rescoring it I think you're revering those images and and enhancing their visibility I think that would be amazing. 05:14.45 William Yeah, the the other thing with all of the sites and that's the connectivity. The 1 site in relation to another site. Why are there 4 5 6 Mazes out there. What is that connection. You know what are they using the mazes for are they the same people or is it something that. Is cross cultural lines of there. Are you know the topak maze which is still a mystery There's a maze out by um, sit mule mountains that's not mule mountains. That's the next one over the little Marias believe Mccoy mountains. 05:33.75 Alan Right. 05:44.60 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:49.82 William Ah there's a maze out there as well too. What do these represent you know direction is everything and so you know when you destroy elements around a site later on you learn hey that was a key aspect to the site why that site was even there you know. Then we get into arguments over wave boulders that it have multitude of cups on them where I've had some people come up and argue that those are zenalist. They're just you know harder rock eroding out leaving these pockets on them and weren't they weren't made by human. You know, but when you connect them all together and you've got almost 27 of them in a region. Ah, there's a strong connection that you just can't make that analysis from just looking at 1 site you have to bring all 27 together and which which we're really facing. 06:27.16 Alan Are. 06:36.40 Alan Of course. Yeah. 06:41.15 William Why are they facing that way in all of these different things that that that lead us to a greater understanding Why some of these things and and it's kind of amazing. Ah, when you realize that the ability to look at the stars and actually plot things and make connections. Ah that it takes a lifetime. 06:58.89 Alan It does. 06:59.85 William Um, and passing on that information to a group of people that are going to be reliant upon those things to know the seasonal changes. You know, um, be able to predict weather. You know, knowing when you're going from winter to Summer summer back to winter. And I think there's been too much focus on solstice without enough focus on equinox because I think equinox is actually more important than solstice was so these are things yet to be learned and if we keep destroying everything we're never going to learn it. 07:31.78 Alan Right? And it's so rare that we have a professional astronomer or even native people for that matter that ah will will do the hard work and the scholarship necessary to understand a. A rock art site an archaeological site a sacred site. Um there. There is an example of that at Mary's cave in the eastern mojave desert where they've got 25 years of experience studying it. Um and it is a. 08:07.91 Alan Archeoastronomical site which has celestial imagery on the ceiling as well as on the floor and it has to do with the equinox and the winter solstice as well. Ah. And the viewing of it from that rock shelter and there was ah an extensive book of over seven hundred pages written online from an astronomer who studied it for that length of time to um begin to understand some of the nuances. Surrounding that site. So but that's that's rather special that doesn't happen very often. 08:53.25 William Yeah, but you know which again when you get around to different locations and you start matching things up and and unfortunately when you don't examine the entire site of zap we had 1 site where we had actually pictographs in black. 09:08.66 Alan Yeah, yeah. 09:11.27 William Kind of a grayish thing. But when we waited we were close to equinox and the shadow kind of moved across the pattern between 2 stones but there was actually 2 pillared like stones probably twenty feet high at least and so then. 09:20.34 Alan Um, ah. 09:25.53 Alan Wow. 09:30.46 William The tribal people as well as the archeologists as well as the developer said oh we got to preserve the rock art. So I went back out there. The 2 mast stones that were part of the complex were gone and they were turned into road base and I said. You know one can't exist without the other you know the whole purpose of trying to preserve the site was preserve the rock art and preserve you know the mast stones that had everything to do with the rock art. Why the rock art was there in the first place. 09:48.93 Alan Exactly. 10:02.69 William See yep. 10:02.70 Alan Ah, so you sometimes you damned if you do and damned if you don't right? Yeah it. But so it I get that I get the sense that yeah. It must be rather frustrating for you being you know somewhat on the on the cutting edge of trying to defend and deal with some of the most thorny problems that Native Americans have in terms of preservation and dealing with. Heritage values and you've been doing that for decades right. 10:38.64 William Yeah, there there's still some old sore points. You know it's like when you travel and to Sacramento and I five that you know there's ah over two Thousand native american burials were used as rote base in the construction of I 5 10:51.64 Alan Um, well. 10:52.84 William You know, but 1 mound was destroyed. They just used it as Phil you know and there were several mounts that are I believe 2 mounds were actually destroyed then the ah Brazil mound is still partially intact. Anyway, um. 10:55.43 Alan Ah, yeah, yeah. 11:03.57 Alan Yeah. 11:07.14 William And again, that's a shift in cultures shift for me because going up in the sacramento area and all of sudden realizing setters for is on a burial mound. Ah, you have these various mounds. You're around the Sacramento area and I didn't understand it from my own cultural aspect of it and. 11:12.30 Alan As well. 11:23.48 William You know so you have people living on these islands and were they handmade islands and yes they were. That's an awful lot of intensive work going to putting these things together so that they could survive the winners so you get into a whole bunch of things and. 11:32.63 Alan Yeah. 11:37.10 William And when you get in the foot hell and you start getting back into rocky points and everything and all and all of a sudden you got petroglyphs again. You know it's like I this goes back to 1 um archaeologist you gave a paper one time on the lack of of bedrock mortars in Orange County and 11:40.80 Alan Yeah. 11:51.98 Alan Ah. 11:52.46 William Everybody was applauding her for such an observation because she did it through researching the paper record and I said yeah but you failed to tell everybody 1 thing there's also a lack of bedrock in Orange County 11:57.50 Alan Um, yeah. 12:04.13 Alan Ah, you can't have a bedrock mortar unless you have bedrock right? hilarious. 12:06.70 William Yeah, so but we kind of do that with with a lot of different things. You know we just you know if you were to paint the boundaries where rock art is Central Valley would almost be blank zero nothing there. Yeah. 12:20.98 Alan Yeah, it's it's devoid there a but very much rock rock in the Central valley. So and even with the archeological sites that are there or were there and are still there. They're buried under many many meters of alluvium. Um, they're ancient. 12:25.44 William Is note. 12:38.18 Alan But. 12:38.30 William But it goes back and ask the question. What did they use then for their astrological guidance for a lot of different things. What did they rely upon Mount Diablo was one you know, ah there were several the ah peak outside of the the town of Jackson of Mccony Hill 12:41.80 Alan Right. Yes. 12:51.47 Alan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:55.97 William You know? so even from there even the faintest fire could be seen so those fires were you know carried signals and and so there's a lot of communication going on across that valley. Um, and from observation posts you know and informed people of things. 13:09.98 Alan Um, yeah, lots to do lots to think about Well God Bless you wool eat Pink Thanks for your reflections and dropping in and. Giving us the the view from on high I I Really I I appreciate it. But God Bless you But God Bless God Bless you all you fans of rock guard and Native American concerns see on the flip flop. 13:31.52 William Um, how that's fish I appreciate your time.