00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome everybody to the rock art podcast this is Chris webster co-founder and sometime co-host of this podcast of the archeology podcast network so we haven't had a show in a little while but we're. Coming back and we're kicking it off with one where I interview Alan as we've done in the past. So Alan how you doing? yeah. 00:23.44 alan Well better I've been gone for about a month and a half I had a quite a challenging bout with a disease called pneumonia but I'm on the other side they gave they gave me a chest x-ray and I'm clear my my lungs are clear so ah praise god and. 00:29.70 archpodnet Yeah, so. 00:39.78 alan Thank you for the opportunity to reconnect with all of my listeners. 00:45.10 archpodnet Outstanding. Yeah, well, it's good to have you back and glad to get the show back on its feet. So hey, if you're new to this and this is like the first show you've heard then go check out the back catalog because this is episode 113 and there are 112 other great episodes. So. Definitely go check those out all right? So we mentioned a little bit in the introduction. But what are we talking about today. 01:08.31 alan Well today I'd like to kick it off and have a discussion with you I certainly would welcome your reflections and comments as well. Chris um, about the issues relating to rock art and archeology. And native or indigenous perspectives and so ah I can I can kind of mention why this came to the fore in my mind we just ah completed the ah weekend. 01:26.28 archpodnet Okay. 01:41.47 alan Of the petrolef festival in ridgerest California and it's their tenth anniversary and surprisingly surprisingly enough. Ah they had a group of indians who were picketing the festival. 01:43.76 archpodnet Yeah, oh right? yeah. 01:58.89 archpodnet Um, okay. 02:00.44 alan Um, and they also gave out flyers and I I think the issues that they were raising had to do with colonialism and genocide and the perhaps the you know. And know what you call it where you take over the symbolism and religious metaphors of another culture and use them as your own etc Etc. It was a very small group. Yeah Appropriation. So It was a very small group and they certainly were a fringe organization. But it cast a. 02:22.11 archpodnet Um, appropriation. Yeah. 02:35.37 alan Ah, long shadow in ah, a public relations. You know bombshell on the festival itself. They have been trying for 10 years to create a platform for native american education and acknowledgement and. 02:47.57 archpodnet Ah. 02:54.76 alan Creation of Heritage Values cultural values of the indigenous people from ah from ah a regional a regional standpoint and I think they're I think they're getting there so it was kind of a surprise hiccup in that. 03:00.78 archpodnet Brett. 03:13.50 alan Arena um, additionally when I think about the go go ahead. Certainly yeah, why don't you chime in Chris. 03:17.82 archpodnet Ah. 03:19.24 archpodnet Well, yeah I was just thinking you know this is the tenth year of the petrigola festival and I don't think I've ever heard you mention that there were so picketers or protesters before and it seems like every year they put this on there trying to. You know include native and indigenous voices in not only the festival of course but in the planning and and you know all that so I'm just wondering you know is this a ah is this going to put a damper on future festivals. Are they going to. Have they talked about yet I know it just ended but have they talked about yet. Okay and we need to do things differently or you know what is the conversation so far is everybody just kind of trying to figure out what happened and what they're going to do. 04:05.10 alan I would agree with all everything that you've said by way of reflection and let me also mention that in some ways this is not an isolated event. There was an article in the Los Angeles Times years ago. That also cast aspersions on the festival and echoed some native american voices saying ah why are they using our symbols if if why do they have to study us. We're not we we know who we are and these are our. 04:29.99 archpodnet Ah. 04:41.66 alan Ah, sacred places and in fact, the ah Festival does not represent us and they don't have a a good cross-section of ah regionally relevant native people that are part of the festival and um. This is really a continuation of Colonialism So put that in your put that in your pipe and smoke it. So Um, and then a a couple of a a couple of episodes ah ago we had a. 05:11.23 archpodnet Ah, indeed Yeah, for sure. 05:19.83 alan Gentleman by the name of Willie Pink and he gave us a strong dose of some of his experiences with oversight agencies the governmentt etc in in in how how they have misused their power and um. 05:25.40 archpodnet Um. 05:39.60 alan Not benefited but I'd say yeah, um had been quite adversarial to native American views and values and lifeways. So it it continues to a great extent. Um I have to say that. Um. 05:53.77 archpodnet Ah. 05:59.33 alan If you look at archeology as it's done. Let's say in California or the study of rock art I would say that you could count them on. Maybe 1 hand or 2 native americans that are actively involved as professional. Cultural resource managers archaeologists or rock art scholars. Would you agree. 06:25.86 archpodnet Yeah I think so yeah for sure. 06:31.40 alan Um, so there aren't many are there. 06:34.60 archpodnet No, no there's really not um I mean that is that is a problem across archeology right? especially from a native indigenous perspective right? There's just there's never enough. Um, one idea that comes to mind is the ah the Navajo nation I know they have their own. Their own cultural resources people their own cultural resources archeologists and you know they send them to I mean the the usual schools and all that stuff and then they come back and then they get all their they get all their training and and work specifically on tribal land which is. Really not something a lot of tribes can afford I mean there's not a lot something. Not a lot of states can afford. You know let alone tribes. But um, you know it they keep it inhouse so to speak and I think that's ah, a good model. 07:17.83 alan Well, there's a lot of there's a handful in California of federally recognized native american tribes called tribes and and they are ah often in the an overwhelmingly most cases casinoed. 07:27.66 archpodnet Brett. 07:35.69 alan Have a casino and if they have a casino and they're federally recognized often. They have a division a particular group that is tribal heritage preservation and they ah represent that tribe. 07:38.59 archpodnet Um. 07:53.21 alan And they have ah paid Native American monitors that come out and work with archaeologists who are typically Non-indian and those natives um are compensated ah at varying rates but they do participate. 07:57.85 archpodnet Um. 08:11.95 alan When there are excavations or circumstances where there could be um, impacts to significant archeological sites. You've seen that haven't you. 08:23.14 archpodnet Yeah, for sure I've worked on lots of sites where native american monitors were hired um and to be honest, they can be a pretty valuable resource as well. I'm I'm thinking of 1 example, working up on a project in Clear Lake California up on the northern end of the of the state. And we had this native american monitor that he actually you know we requested this but he actually told us in the first day we spent the morning just listening to him talk about some of the unique things that can be found in that area that his you know his ancestors and and current tribal members have done and used and and different artifacts. We might find. And and what they would look like what materials they could be made out of just to you know, give us a good baseline for things that we were looking for and that was really appreciated. 09:15.40 archpodnet Can you hear me. 09:19.39 alan Yeah, no I can that really sounds like a nice um model for interaction now I've had other interaction which didn't go extraordinarily well um, one of the. 09:25.43 archpodnet Oh. 09:32.79 archpodnet Ah. 09:34.65 alan 1 of the circumstances was that one of the native people. Um, one of the monitors I think was quite adversarial to um, the archaeologists and was critical of their um procedures and wanted to identify things that. He thought or she thought were um, artifacts that some of the professionals or the you know the archaeologists who are non-indians believed weren't so we had that issue to to deal with um. 10:06.54 archpodnet Ah. 10:11.00 alan 1 of the most expensive archeological projects I was on was in a place called Kelso Valley where I trained I'd say about 50 native americans in in how to do monitoring and what to look for and how to do that and ah. They learned a lot from that experience but I have to say that they also ah were highly critical of the archaeologists and the ways in which they were conducting their affairs. They were antagonistic and adversarial as they thought that some of the sites. That we just that were discovered were sacred or valuable or significant and wanted them to be avoided which the ah project proponents said could not occur and um, they yeah, they actually um. Would create signs you know indicating that they thought that the archaeologists were you know destroying their culture and destroying their heritage. So um, some of the some of the issues that. 11:19.91 archpodnet Right. 11:27.44 alan Haven't been properly dealt with I think from a standpoint of economics or from a standpoint of dealing with it in an appropriate posture. Um is when you've got projects that are costing millions and millions of dollars and they're going to be generating. You know, sustainable energy for quite some time often. The native people would like to see some economic benefit from that project and they they normally don't see anything in the long term. Um, also they may they may benefit briefly. 11:57.91 archpodnet Sure. 12:03.68 alan By being employed as monitors but there is no longevity to that association. Also ah their sites are then covered up or collected and the artifacts has in museums and sometimes those museums are not. Located in their tribal territories. Um, and so there's a lot of issues that come up even with rock art sites especially there's a lot of issues that have come up for instance in Eastern California with um. 1 of the more significant rock guard sites in little patrickliff canyon the koso range native people have said they would not like to have any public tours because the place is too sacred and they'd like like to see that whole canyon shut down and so that's been an issue. 12:57.70 archpodnet Um. 13:01.90 alan Um, additionally often frequently and and the lion's share of archaeologists that study rock art. Do not involve. Ah the native american perspective on what that rock art means in any of their discussions or. Professional papers or presentations or what have you? they? Um, they really avoid them or they say that that how could they know anything about this rock guard. It's hundreds or thousands of years old and these native people their cultures have been shattered or destroyed. And really they have no connection to these resources have you heard of that have you heard that perspective. 13:50.70 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. Um I have yeah and I have definitely and you know I've got some thoughts on that and let's take a break and continue this on the other side back in a minute. 13:58.75 alan Um, please okay.