00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode one thirteen and we are talking about well to be honest, a tough topic especially as you know, white archaeologists studying native american culture and one of the things I was thinking about was you know it's it's such a. 00:00.00 alan That. 00:19.62 archpodnet It such a unique circumstance that we have here in the United States well I think it happens in Australia too actually with their indigenous populations is you have a whole entire profession of people. They're not all white I mean there's black white. There are native american archeologists. There's hispanic you know Latino there's all kinds of archaeologists out there but to be honest, most of them are white. It's just I don't know why. But that's just that's just one of those professions that that um happens to swing that direction and I don't understand it but the interesting thing is I mean I mean most of us got into this field because you know, especially if you're studying prehistoric archeology is. We want to know the origins of things that was my start I started studying paleoanthropology I wanted to know the the real origins of things where did humans start right? Well my career in my education. Never really went that direction so I couldn't really go that direction so you know I started doing north american archeology and. You know you still you just want to know the origins that's the questions I'm interested in when did people get to this you know to North America when did people get to this little valley right here you know when did that happen. How did it happen who was it what were they doing what were their lives like it's just a fascination with the culture as a whole and then on the other side you've got the. The descendants of that culture go in? Yeah but but that's ours and and we don't want you to either know that or learn that right? Um, but it comes from a place on this side of just wanting to understand and then of course you throw in all the the. 01:48.84 archpodnet Pipelines and the walmarts and the and the oil fields and all that other stuff that is thrown into this whole thing that really sucks for them because they don't get to partake in that but I'll tell you what neither do we as archeologists. Um, you know we're still getting paid a a pretty low wage to be honest with you. But um, it's a. It's very few people that benefit from things like that and I think as Archaeologists I try to look at it as Well. The more we can learn about past civilizations. That's the benefit that that we can provide to you know to other people that want to know this story. Um, it's just it's difficult because it's not really our story to tell. But then again. Nobody else is telling it and we feel compelled to which I don't know if we should or not, you know what? I mean it's tough. 02:30.76 alan Well I think that the um way to go about this in the future is to incorporate the native perspective and we only do that by actually involving them and listening to them and when we. Publish or when we produce, books or articles or presentations or cinematic expositions. They would have a chance to share their own perspective on archaeology on rock art and on their. Ah. Sacred ceremonial religious iconography. Um, as you mentioned in Australia ah sometimes the ah creation of rock art paintings is still going on and there are individuals that that know. 03:13.48 archpodnet Ah. 03:22.32 archpodnet Oh. 03:27.11 alan Ah, the stories that they're telling and know the reasons that they're created and can deconstruct and provide meaning for those images. Um, that doesn't happen as often in in North america or other places around the world but occasionally it does. And so um, I've certainly had and had an experience where I partnered with a native american and we co ah wrote or co-published co-authored a book on kawau a handbook. Where these southern piute natives were acknowledged and recognized and it told the story of their land and their culture and paid homage to their places and their creations. 04:06.50 archpodnet Um. 04:14.41 archpodnet Um. 04:24.80 alan And so ah, at least that that goes a step in the right direction yet. Others would say well you were the senior author on this book you made money on the book where did the money go when the sale of these. Of these books should generate income for the Kowaaasu nation and I've heard that from kawaasu members of that indigenous tribe. So and that's valid, certainly valid. Um, and additionally um. 04:48.48 archpodnet Ah. 04:56.90 archpodnet Brett. 05:01.45 alan Is it a fact or is it something that we can live with to say that these rock pictures these these images on stone are the heritage exclusively of the native people and their descendants. And the Non-indians the non-native people have no right to study explore preserve conserve visit etc or access any of these resources I don't think that that bodes well for us as as a profession. 05:32.22 archpodnet Mother. 05:37.47 alan And I don't think that is really a valid view I think this heritage these cultural resources are a legacy a body of of ah resources that I think we all we we should be able to enjoy. Ah, collectively. Do you agree you do? That's right, right. 05:58.45 archpodnet Yeah I mean I agree but again, that's you know that's our perspective right? and and not everybody shares that. Yeah and it's and that's what makes it really tough. That's what makes really tough because you know there's the other thing is especially when it comes to things like rock art I mean. We've talked about on this program before it is extremely difficult to date rock art right? and dating things obviously is what helps us give attribution to a time period First off, but then also if we have other evidence. The people that that did it because we can say well they were there at this time dot dot dot. 06:34.64 alan Right? right. 06:36.91 archpodnet They made the rock art right? and and that's the that's the idea but it's very hard to do that and a lot of rock art sites are um, you know, probably largely undated or just loosely dated based on things around them or based on the the imagery itself or something like that and so we live in a world of proof. We live in a world where. Everything requires evidence. Everything requires proof from legal issues to you know to medicine to other sciences and archeology is no different. You know so so for us to do that. But that's where we kind of get into trouble too right? because the 1 thing in this world that doesn't require proof is religion right? if people say. 07:09.55 alan That is a right right. 07:16.42 archpodnet I'm religious and that's what I believe Well we just kind of back away and say yep, Ok, that's actually true and then it's just so cloudy when we we mix the the Native American um ah, cultural heritage which is religion to them right is definitely religion. 07:30.61 alan Right? right. 07:33.27 archpodnet We mix that with archaeology and science and wanting to know more and they clash right? whereas studying christianity or studying judaism or something like that we can. We can do that and that doesn't seem to be a cultural issue with that right? So it's all very confusing. 07:37.50 alan Right. 07:46.56 alan Right? And what we're dealing with is a clash in theology. The Western industrial perspective demands proof the native perspective. 07:52.15 archpodnet Yeah. 08:03.90 alan Has to do with a whole different theories. Um Theorems regarding power and sacredness and the. The connections are unifications of the natural world and the human world and what I mean by that is I've discussed this you know in in many of the podcasts that theology is animism is shamanism is totemism. 08:27.37 archpodnet Um. 08:38.39 alan And all of these other elements that are very foreign very antithetical to a western industrial mind am I correct Yes, right now. Only now. 08:48.33 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 08:56.97 alan You know 2023 at the end of beginning 2024 shortly? Um, we're finding that for instance, shamanism and the use of certain psychotropic substances is being embraced by Modern Science. As a means of affecting the ah problems of our culture. Um, including depression anxiety. Ah ah, other sorts of physiological perspectives from Humankind. Um. 09:24.20 archpodnet Ah. 09:34.78 alan And they're finding that by using these psychotropic substances. People's minds are changed. They're expanded. They're transformed. They find a reason to exist They understand the world in a whole different way than they've done before. Does that make any sense. Yes, and no right. 09:53.14 archpodnet Yeah, it does and again one of the interesting things about that is yeah well you see you see cultures all around the world. You know you've traveled all over a place I've been all over the place and you see cultures all around the world I Guess profiting off of their off of their cultural knowledge and heritage in ways like. Like for example, drugs or something along those lines medicinal things right or procedures or you know something along those lines. The tourists come In. They're more than happy to take their money and say here this will make you better. This will do a thing you know do that? Um, and yet you talk to. 10:14.75 alan Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 10:30.41 archpodnet Um, native american scholars in particular and it's very much the opposite right? They don't they don't really want to share any of that. But then again they don't all they don't all feel that way like we're driving through New Mexico just the other day and we're on the eastern side of New Mexico right now and you drive through Arizona New Mexico and there is just about every exit. Has some sort of claims to be native american trading post kind of thing where you can get you know? Yeah ah rugs and and and blankets weaved by native americans and authentic native american gifts and authentic native american pots and authentic native american this and that so. I say more power to them if they can make money off the tourist by selling those things and by you know by maybe in in some little way promoting their culture and their heritage through that as well. Not just as a trinket you buy on the you know on the interstate on route 66 um, it's it's interesting, right? But again, not everybody feels that way. It's very polarizing I think even amongst the native american community on essentially selling your culture. You know what I mean and and profiting off of that. 11:33.10 alan well yes, yes well yes and no, um, I'll give you an example, there's a navajo silver smith that attends the international rock art conference who is ah a Navajo from Arizona and. 11:45.60 archpodnet Oh. 11:49.77 alan He sells his silver um, extraordinary jewelry for quite ah quite a price I bought a um, a cut a cuff for $700 and um, other other people certainly were willing to spend an equivalent amount. 11:56.91 archpodnet Yeah. Cheese. 12:09.33 alan Because he is such an exquisite craftsman and Artisan so there are exceptions correct and the same thing goes with my story about the people that learned how to be native American monitors. 12:17.37 archpodnet Um, absolutely. 12:27.35 alan Out of that group of 50 There's 1 or 2 who actually became professional native american cultural resource managers and they made a business ah ah, literally a a profession profession out of that ah experience. So. 12:28.81 archpodnet Um. 12:37.39 archpodnet Right? yeah. 12:46.54 alan It doesn't always go south but ah, only rarely and only exceptionally do we find that have you had any experience like that where you see people up. Okay. 12:48.46 archpodnet Ah. 12:57.57 archpodnet I mean Yes, yeah yeah, um, you know, definitely worked with professionals in the past. But then again that word professionals kind of loaded too right? like somebody somebody gets. 13:07.67 alan Um, right. 13:12.80 archpodnet Some of these tribes. They really give a lot of training a lot of cultural resource training in-house to their monitors and these people may have no more than a high school degree right? Um, but their cultural knowledge because of what they're given by the by the tribe is way more than I'll ever have right way more than any quote professional archeologist will probably ever have either? um. 13:22.80 alan That's that's correct. 13:31.71 archpodnet So again for us to it's all perspective right? Which is what we're talking about for us to go say you know? well they're professional. They need to go to college and they need to have a degree of some sort right? And that's not necessarily true in their culture. 13:45.00 alan So I have ah an interesting perspective on that um native Americans have hired me to teach them their culture. Um I was hired hired by the Koayu the tabbata label. 13:55.99 archpodnet Oh. 14:01.84 alan Was hired by the sierra miwwak to literally um, teach them native native american monitoring teach them cultural resource management teach them about what an anthropologist or an archaeologist might know or think about indigenous. Cultures the peopling of the Americas Archaeology Anthropology etc I spent a week doing that amongst the miwok and I was paid to do that I did the same thing with the Owens Valley career development center and brought the native people to see ah indigenous archeological sites. 14:27.29 archpodnet Ah. 14:40.90 alan And rock art sites men women, children families et cetera and um, those were for me some of the most enriching and wonderful experiences of my life. 14:43.13 archpodnet Ah. 14:48.60 archpodnet Um. 14:56.44 archpodnet That's all I mean that's that's great, right? Um, and it's It's a you. It's a unique. It's a unique experience for sure. 15:00.36 alan Right? Yeah, and so I I try to um, always have a positive spin. My um, my colleagues have told me I always wear rose colored glasses and if I so. If I Saw a field of cow manure I'd say what? Ah what? a wonderful source for fertilizer. So um, in any event. Um I tried to work with Native Americans that enhance. Ah their personal value. Their recognition. Ability to understand or appreciate my perspective I think partly um, in many instances to some instances. Anyways, um, I'm I'm viewed as ah with a bit of kinship because I am so so religious. Um, and such a student. Of their culture as well as my own. So I think I think one of the one of the larger problems is many archaeologists or many I don't know how many but in my experience most archaeologists are non-religious people. 15:55.77 archpodnet Um, ah right. 16:13.50 alan Would you agree or not Chris. 16:16.28 archpodnet Ah I would I would tend to I Guess agree to a standpoint I've heard so many say that they're they don't subscribe to a religion but they're spiritual that kind of thing but um, as somebody who's not religious I sometimes feel like that's a cop out and they're not just willing to go full tilt say they're not religious. 16:24.31 alan Work. Yeah. 16:31.54 alan Um, yeah, exactly yeah. 16:33.95 archpodnet But that being said, um yeah I mean I to be I mean for me I Just I lean back on the science and I can't get away from it. But that's how my mind was developed in you know, early childhood and and not everybody's like that Obviously I'm definitely in the minority on that. So um, but it can't be helped. 16:45.51 alan Sure. 16:53.54 archpodnet So you know. 16:55.71 alan So I think native people um are often very religious people. Um, sometimes sometimes religious people in the sense that they they may be part of a formal religion. 17:06.00 archpodnet Um. 17:12.95 alan Catholic or Christian but they also tend to retain a special association and ah religious fervor for their own native american traditions at the same time. So there's this syncretism as it's called right. 17:29.39 archpodnet Ah. 17:31.58 archpodnet Right. 17:32.43 alan Ah, syncretism where there's both the ah adopted religion and their native religion integrating as one there's a native American Church where they drum and they dance there's ah Christian expressions that also follow certain other religious. Beliefs. Um, anyways I think you understand my point point. 17:55.59 archpodnet Um I do and ah, let's finish up this discussion on the other side we're going to take our break right now and we'll come back with our our final thoughts on this topic in segment three back in a minute.