00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode one thirteen and we're talking about you know, native indigenous perspectives on rock art cultural heritage history and I got to acknowledge right? off the bat which I probably should have done in the in the first segment that I I think. Dr. Allen and I both understand the irony of 2 white professional archaeologists discussing native american perspectives. We're not trying to pretend to know any you know any answers or even provide any solutions to be honest with you. This is just I guess our take in our certain niche in this world on. Ah. On this topic you know, especially given the the protesters at the petroglyph festival in richcrest because you know the the people who put on that festival think that from their perspective they are doing everything that they can to help promote and and therefore protect through education of of the wider the wider public. You know the native american um, not only cultural heritage but just just the the thoughts and the ideas that they have you know without people knowing those keeping those close to the vest nobody really knows it. You know it's why a lot of languages. Go extinct. What do they say like 1 language goes extinct like every week or something like that. Um, because. 01:12.60 alan That's correct. 01:13.64 archpodnet Because not enough people are speaking it. Not enough people are putting it out there and and not enough people have studied it in order to retain that language. So it's the same with your cultural heritage if you really want it to die then don't tell anyone about it right? And maybe that's exactly what they want but I don't know. 01:29.81 alan Well no yes, ah yes, and no, um when I worked on the kawaa su handbook one of my primal motivations to do that was that even the anthropologist who is most well known as an expert. 01:36.25 archpodnet Um. 01:46.34 alan On the kowaa si had said they went extinct and that there's that there's no more kowaau well that wasn't true. There was hundreds of Kowaa Si and they they knew their culture. They have ancestry and they um. 01:52.72 archpodnet Oh. 02:05.12 alan Was even some that were still speaking the language not many but some and just because we don't they don't live in tepe and they don't make drawings on Rocks anymore doesn't mean they're not native people at heart and have a. 02:19.42 archpodnet Ah. 02:24.33 alan And a valid interest in their heritage and in preserving their indigenous voice and their native tribal identification. So with that in mind I wanted to show archaeologists anthropologists. That the Kawais who are still here. There's lots of information about them and please recognize that these people have a heritage and a valuable 1 and let's pay them homage and recognize their significance. So I think that was that's the same voice as the ridgecas petogla festival. But again, um. 03:07.66 archpodnet Oh. 03:20.42 alan You You walk a ah fine line because ah one can validly say these are my ancestral etchings on Rocks You're never going to understand them. They're valuable and sacred and powerful. 03:36.76 archpodnet Ah. 03:40.20 alan For us as indians you have no right to access them nor to you know, adopt them as your own signature or emblems or to sell depictions of them in your shop such as the Materango Museum or to replicate them on rocks and sell them. Those are all things that offend me and please don't do that. So if if that's the case then an institution like the materango museum that is based on. 04:01.80 archpodnet Um. 04:06.12 archpodnet O e. 04:17.74 alan Those principles of taking those images and emblazoning them on rocks on on glassware on plates on on. Um you know tank tops and other sorts of pieces of you know clothing. 04:20.26 archpodnet Um. 04:36.16 alan Can be seen as as you said it appropriation right? Yeah and one what when when then one would say that isn't this just a continuation of colonialism and the western idea of. 04:42.51 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, it's. 04:55.77 alan Entrepreneur and business and commercialism and taking the sacred images and using them as a means of generating income for for themselves. 05:08.86 archpodnet Yeah, and even if the I mean I see the perspective too because even if the petroglyph festival as say an organization or an entity. You know, really doesn't make a whole lot of money off the festival I'd be really surprised if they did maybe to cover costs or something like that. But the city of Ridge Crest certainly gets a benefit from 50000 people showing up for the weekend to spend money there and do different things right? Um, so that's an economic benefit to the city. Yeah, but here's the thing. Ah. 05:32.84 alan Sure sure of course big big time and and end they end they've emblazoned the city with the signature we are this we are the city of the petrolyphs. That's what and they have it. 05:48.88 archpodnet Um, right. 05:52.25 alan Have images all over Ridge crest on the trash cans on the signs. Every place there's petrolyphs keep going. Are you there? yeah. 05:59.73 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, it's no, it's It's crazy right? Um, and and that's the thing that I wanted to talk about too though because it's really hard for I feel like ah you know. Modern peoples so to speaks which is everybody who lives right Now. Um to keep things small right? We always want to. We always want to start something and say you know what I want to grow this so everybody comes and it's massive and and and people love it. Well it sounds like they're victims of their own success. A little bit right because the bigger this gets the more people that come in. The more commercialized It's inevitably going to feel even if this was an entirely native American Run Festival with every single person being a native American and enjoying everything somebody is still going to have an issue with it because of the amount of success. It's had because of how big it is because of all the people coming in and then all the other. 06:37.59 alan That's true. 06:51.94 archpodnet You know the ancillary appropriation that's happening you know because even if they said don't do this the city would probably still put petroglyphs on the trash cans. You know what I mean so um, it's it's and I don't know how to fix that right I don't know how to fix that it's It's um. 06:58.22 alan Of course. Yeah. 07:05.68 alan I don't I don't It's it's a conundrum. It's ah, an inescapable problem that I think will only be assuaged assuaged if we come together in some fashion and. 07:10.58 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 07:21.64 alan Bring Nate bring the native voice into into commission and that's not so easy to do is it. 07:24.40 archpodnet Brett. 07:30.14 archpodnet It's not but you know we try to do what we can and if anybody is listening to this podcast that that knows any native american scholars I mean not even they don't have to be that they have to just selfidentify as a scholar. Let's just say that way. Um, you know if they're knowledgeable on the topic. We would love to have him on the show right? Especially talking about um, rock art and things of that nature on this show. But um, also on any other show in the archeology podcast network. In fact, there's a whole podcast dedicated to indigenous. Um. Voices. Basically it's called heritage voices and hosted by Jessica Akinto she's been doing this for about five or six years now 7 years something like that and it's a great podcast so we we try to I guess enhance those kinds of things. But again, it's really difficult because people just sometimes don't want to come onto a podcast. You know it no matter how much you ask them. So ah, but the platform is here so that's um, I guess that's the best we can do so to speak anyway, yeah. 08:28.21 alan Well I I think that's that that puts a puts a bow on it and I I promise we'll have more uplifting and educational topics in the future. So see in the flip flop gang.