00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode one fourteen and you know Alan we've been talking about the human representation of gender and and and the people that create the rock art and thing like that. But 1 of the biggest features of rock art and as you alluded to in the last segment. Animals. There's animals all over rock art. They're represented all over the place and you know I was wondering about some of the assumptions made regarding animals And for example, we were talking about this on the break. You know my assumption is because this is what I've always heard is that you know female animals are often often represented and in conjunction with. Fertility and and things like that and male animals are often represented if you can even tell the sex. Sometimes you can't but um, male animals are often represented with you know in conjunction with hunting and and dominance and things like that. So what are your thoughts on on all that. 00:55.43 alan Well, let's give you a ah living but living breathing example of sort of the ah contradiction or conflation sort of the intersection of the male and female gender in. Animal representations. So we have the the big horned sheep that appears throughout the great basin and also these horned animals that appear literally all over the world. It's a yeah, um, a key figure that is represented in rock art in. But really yeah in in many of the major rock art recorded areas all over the globe. So one of the things I learned from a scholar who's interviewed these ah rock art scholars that are doing work in the Altai and. southeast asia in um, where else in Africa Etc etc all over the place where there is ah depictions of these longhorned animals I said First of all the longorned animals. Ah often. Or ah frequently are always represented with tails and I and and we thought that to be curious because when you when you view some of these huge horned beasts one of the. 02:27.69 alan Sort of the least evident attributes or parts of their physiology that you'd want to even bother rendering is a little tail right? Their tail is often tucked tucked nicely into their behinds and. 02:39.51 archpodnet Um, right. 02:46.10 alan Rarely shows up in any particular fashion when you see the animals. Well, it turns out that those tails are a analog or metaphor for exactly what you've talked about and that has to do with fertility and. The tails are shown ah in an upward mode either parallel to the ground or or at ratcheted up towards the heavens and ah that that was a mystery to me for a long time and it was discussed at great length. 03:05.70 archpodnet Um. 03:24.61 alan Um, in a number of books and articles and I finally discovered exactly what the story was um when I talked to wildlife biologists about these horned beasts. 03:45.82 alan Ah, bighorn sheep and sheep in general. They told me the only time that these animals would have their tails erect is in a posture called flagging and flagging is. 04:00.72 archpodnet Okay. 04:04.31 alan Is the female communicating to the male that they're open for reproduction and have the ability to procreate and produce produce an animal so you have this horned beast but yet we also have the fertility. 04:10.21 archpodnet Oh okay. 04:24.15 alan Compliment this open. You know, ah introduction regarding this mixture of metaphors and this happens all over the world I was ah told from ah Aaron Barnia who is producing a. A motion picture called the ibex code who interviewed these scholars it said? Yeah well all over the world. We knew that that's ah, that's something that's ah, common knowledge amongst ah, experts who study rock art that that's what's going on and I said really I see they said well. 04:51.30 archpodnet Ah. 04:59.60 archpodnet Um. 05:00.17 alan Yeah, of course, why did why didn't you ask me? So so it took me a long time to figure that one out and I had to go round the horn to do so but that's what's going on and that's that's ah, a fascinating sort of intersection between. 05:06.33 archpodnet Ah, right. 05:18.76 alan The male and the female isn't it. 05:22.20 archpodnet Um, yeah, it really is and I wonder if well ah to back up a little bit one of the first I think maybe the first time I ever saw you speak and ever possibly even. Ah, met you in person I'm not really sure though was at the san or sacramento San Francisco I think society from american archaeology meetings something like ten years ago and I remember you talking about bighorned sheep of the coso and this representation with their tails being up. It was very animated. Ah. 05:41.28 alan Um, yeah, ah. 05:52.74 alan I'll bet I'll bet. Yeah, well, it's been a. It's been quite a mystery for a lot of people. But I think we've got that mystery solved. So um as well. Ah. 05:59.19 archpodnet Yeah. 06:06.89 alan There seems to be you know we've talked about indexical animals and those appear as well and they of course have metaphors of abundance metaphors of creativity and creation and fertility all mixed together with both male and female elements. 06:19.61 archpodnet Um. 06:26.88 alan Ah, ah, part and parcel of that. Um, when when we look at these ah these human or animal-human figures they have attributes that will tell you whether they're men or women anatomically. 06:28.70 archpodnet Yeah. 06:46.17 alan You know men have penises and the women have have ah the feminine Genitalia and the feminine Genitalia is sometimes a couple of lines Sometimes it's pendant labia Sometimes it's an inverted V or ah, a V the other way. Also. 06:47.31 archpodnet Brett. Oh. 07:05.68 alan They show menstruation on females and they show the ah hair ah bobs the famous you know, ah hopi sign of the women coming of age and the Princess Leah 07:09.81 archpodnet Oh. 07:21.57 archpodnet Yeah. 07:25.31 alan Hairdo that demonstrates they've reached a critical benchmark in they're coming of age and now they're able to menstruate and they can ah get pre get pregnant and are. 07:36.82 archpodnet Yeah. 07:43.19 alan Creators of life and that is all intermingled in rock art. They show that in rock art. They show the hair they show the menstruation and they ah of course show a number of different symbols. That are interconnected with anatomically with with both human and animal human figures that will show us. We're talking about creation fertility coming of age rights all that intermixed does that make any sense. 08:20.89 archpodnet Um, yeah, it really does Um, you know just shows the again shows the fluidity of the whole thing. You know what I mean and and but then also some commonalities right with the. 08:20.92 alan Yeah. 08:31.37 alan Yeah. 08:33.40 archpodnet Almost revering of of women when they're able to you know, get to that point where they can reproduce. They've been and you know like I said almost revered across the world. Um, as you know creators of life. So that's definitely a commonality you see throughout lots of cultures. Yeah. 08:45.13 alan Yeah, yeah, and um and that's a good segue because not only men but women are shamans. Ritual Adepts who fashion rock art and are recognized as individuals who can reach or communicate and be liaisons with the divine. The divinities. The. 09:05.86 archpodnet Ah. 09:21.67 archpodnet Ah. 09:21.82 alan Creator the supernatural beings in the heavens as well as ah, connecting to the terrestrial realm and communicating the power and the connections and the healing energy to do just that. And who's better to do that than perhaps a woman who has a more effeminate sensitive. Ah creative posture than the rough and tumble men right. 09:51.48 archpodnet Or head right? Yeah wow, All right? Well any any final thoughts to wrap up this topic. 10:03.13 alan Yeah, um I think and you've mentioned this from the very beginning when we started talking that we have to go and revisit some of the pivotal sort of perspectives and assertions. That are part and parcel of sort of the arcane knowledge regarding rock art. The exclusivity of men the ah hunting element as being a major element and an an absence or diminution of the feminine and the derepresentation of women. 10:27.18 archpodnet Ah. 10:39.94 alan And so I think it's a coming of age and we're returning to ah ah a bit of a paradigm shift on that matter. So it's been an interesting dialogue and I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this chris. 10:53.77 archpodnet Sounds good. Yeah, this is very interesting if you've got any questions hit us up wherever you found this podcast and there's contact information on the show notes if you can't find that just over to arcpodnet.com or archeology podcastnetwork dot com. And look for the rock art podcast logo on the main page there and then you can go to any show and take a look at the notes and take a look at the links that we have in there. So with that I think we'll go ahead and and say goodbye again leave comments if you can and we will see you next time. 11:23.80 alan See in the flip flop Gang Thanks for patching in God Bless and Happy holidays. 11:32.60 archpodnet That's right happy holidays. Oh let me say 1 more thing if you're listening to this on the day this comes out. It is the ninth anniversary of the archeology podcast network we turn 9 on December first so there we go I just had to throw that in at the last minute all right. 11:46.23 alan Happy Anniversary Happy and.