00:00.00 archpodnet 1 go. 00:00.47 alan Well welcome back gang to the rock art podcast this is episode 1 1 6 with Johnny Valdez a prestigious and and incredible resource for the native nations. the ute and the pueblos in the Colorado and larger environs Johnny we were just getting into talking about some of the unique ways that we have to deal with cultural resources and. Ah, the understanding the theology or the unique perspective of native people in contrast to sort of the western industrial cartesian perspective and I know offline we had a lot of discussions on that. Do you think that's something we should. Focus in on. 00:56.74 Johnny valdez Yeah, absolutely you know as I was saying at the end of the last segment you know my my friend and and chairman Matthew boxes was one of these guys who was just so incredibly into. Who he was as a native as a native person for his culture for the people around him and bringing people together and it's such an important part of of all the things that you talk about on this podcast and what's so interesting about it is we we had a lot of difficulties. 01:24.77 alan Yeah, but let's let's talk about that when yeah and and those difficulties revolved around what particular subjects or issues. 01:31.43 Johnny valdez Yeah. 01:40.46 Johnny valdez Well one of the most difficult was around repatriation. Um and repatriation for those who really don't know what that is is basically nagpra and there was in this act that was put in place many years ago 01:44.10 alan And. 01:56.26 Johnny valdez That was just a ah situation where museums and private collectors and anyone who had found native objects or or people that needed to be taken back to Tribes. Could be done and there was ah a process and a procedure for doing that but in in that Vein. There's a lot of people who won't give back these these cultural people back to the places they belong and you're talking about. 02:31.80 alan So so this so these John Johnny so these are these are but these yeah so these are both artifacts their imagery their ritual and ceremony and sacred objects. Um. 02:31.94 Johnny valdez Universities and colleges. 02:46.46 alan There are artifacts from an archeological standpoint but to a native standpoint they are living beings with agency and aesthetics and power am I correct. 03:02.77 Johnny valdez Absolutely and and actual bones and skeletons as well. Some that were quite literally persons. Um in in the sense that we as as basic humans understand what a person is. But there's personage as you're pointing out in everything in in all of the items the the work that went into it has created that into something different the use of a rock the use of arrowheads you know, ah an arrow. Ah a bow a staff. But also basketry and pottery' they're built by hand they're they are a living object and they are repatriated back to to native nations and the difficulty is that a lot of times Bates State of Colorado state of Nevada. You know these places have a difficult time letting go of those things you know they're held in museums they're in universities in colleges they're in they're in schools they're in classrooms they're in museums for people to come and look at and in some ways there there are some things when they're done well that. Really makes sense and there's some where when you're a native person you walk in, you just cringe. You know that's like that's not honoring that person that that right there is a bone all made out of human bone I mean what are you doing. 04:31.40 Johnny valdez And it's It's really difficult because it it mixes in all of these other things that that we as natives have to be involved in and which is fighting for for your sovereignty and the repatriation of your people and and their sacred objects back Into. Um. Into their land into their homeland and you see this happen quite a bit um in our area. 04:53.42 alan So when you so when you set when you say when you say when you say sovereign. Yeah, when you say Sovereignty help the ah listeners to understand what that means what that implies. 05:02.97 Johnny valdez Yeah, yes, so sovereignty and of course with native people. We're quasi sovereign I'll explain that but but sovereignty means that you you basically are your own country you you do all of the rules. Everything is done within your own. Reservation or your reserve within your place. Your rules are what are followed your culture your ah spirituality is honoured in that area and other groups outside of you say the state of Colorado or the United States protects your sovereignty. As a as the ute tribe for the southern ute indian tribe for example or or the um the akama pueblo and so the the difficulty there is that sovereignty means that that you get to you know, take care of yourself. You're self-governing. And you do it all within your beliefs but we are also imposed beliefs over the top of our beliefs by the United States government because all of these tribes in America are within the United States so we have to follow those rules as well. So we are what is called quasi-sovereign. We're sovereign within our own borders. But then we also have these other rules that we have to follow so it makes it confusing and difficult and because it's confusing and difficult sometimes other people will take advantage and say well I'm not going to provide it back to them because I don't really know if they know what they're doing. 06:38.56 Johnny valdez I don't know whether they have a way to take these um artifacts or cultural pieces or these persons back and and rebury them or do something with them. We don't know how to handle that and so over the past twenty years or so it's gotten so much better. So many different universities and colleges are bringing back rock art and you know things that we'd never thought and they were like oh yeah, my grandfather got this off the Colorado River near grand junction you know. Almost one hundred years ago there's a picture of him standing next to it in this place and then they they send it back to the tribe and say could you please take this back so we've had all kinds of repatriation issues and um, ah there was a wonderful lady who collected arrowheads and and the reason she collected these arrowheads. 07:13.69 alan Wow wow. 07:31.20 Johnny valdez She was a school teacher I don't know her name but she was from Washington state or her family was anyway but she came down and and taught school. You know, probably one hundred miles away from here. Um in Alamosa Colorado and then she went up into the mountains near Silverton Colorado in the in the 1920 s and 30 s and she would go on mining claims and pick up these big beautiful arrowheads spearheads some of them. Paleo I mean there are many many generations that spanned all kinds of of a arrowhead. She just loved collecting them because she knew they were going to get destroyed in the mines. Because the mining people were just digging up all the gravel and crushing everything up. So this lady took it upon herself just to come out and and kind of claim jump and steal these arrowheads off of other people's property so they wouldn't get destroyed and um, she just had them hit in a way and wrote. 08:19.47 alan Are are. 08:28.43 Johnny valdez Nice little notes about them and then her family sent them back to the tribe so it was ah a really wonderful repatriation that happened ah, but there's difficult ones too. You know someone's building a road somewhere and they just hide it under the road because they don't want to go through that process because it sometimes. Can be time conssuming and archaeologists have to come and and people like yourself. You know Doc I know that you you you do some of this out in California where where you're asked to come in and it is costly and and time consuming and so these people don't want to do that and I'm just like you know you have to this is. 08:55.60 alan It's it's it's it is costly. Yes, yeah. 09:07.70 Johnny valdez This was not your place. It was someone else's place and and unfortunately we have to go and do this and so the state of Colorado has done a very good job I believe I believe the Us government has as well. There are some funds available for people to repatriate things. It's. You know you kind of have to know the ins and outs of it and talk to somebody like me and ah get you pointed in the right direction and then they can ah get some funding to get things back to where they belong and ah the long process that's involved. 09:44.40 alan Now How do how do you and your your kindred folk think about rock art about the paintings and the rock drawings that are in your area. What is your perspective be it religious or. 09:54.90 Johnny valdez Are. 10:03.38 alan Sacred or however else about um archaeologists and the general public etc. How do how do we? best? Um, you know understand or appreciate how to. 10:20.41 alan How to how to contextualize those resources. How's that. 10:23.74 Johnny valdez Yeah I think I think what happens here is that people work and the different kin and whether it's ute or Navajo or apache or any of the individuals. The zuni you know you see all these beautiful art. This beautiful artistry. That comes from petroglyphs and pictographs all the way in the entire southwest. We certainly have ah a wide variety. It's some of it's exactly as is out in the koso range that I've seen and some of it is a little bit different but. What we do here is we put it into our storytelling into our hunt stories into our origin story. It's in the pottery. It's in the basket tree. It's in um, in dress it's on hides. It's painted on your horse. It's. In your staff or your arrowheads. it's it's copied let's say and um for to honor those who came before. Um even though something might be more effective. 11:32.58 Johnny valdez You know and a different type of arrowhead might be more effective in in some certain use use the most effective one that you can use but you may have a ceremonial arrowhead that you copy off of of a rock art off of ah a petroglyph you've seen somewhere because it relates to your family or it's. Where your clan or your um Band lived and when you go to that area that is your sacred area and you know where it is. It's Hidden.. It's usually someplace. It's difficult to find and and that's very powerful and it means so much to your family and your people when they see you. With it whether it's painted on as war paint on yourself on your body on your horse on on ah a hide representing a hunt. Um, it's just a beautiful thing that it it's it continues to live. 12:26.60 alan And so these picked so these pictures so he's picked somebody's so these pictures on the rocks are as you put it stories and also commemorations memorials to individuals to episodes of history. 12:27.90 Johnny valdez Through all of the art that we provide here as utes. 12:46.33 alan And also they would have religious and ceremonial implications. Yes. 12:53.71 Johnny valdez Yes, and and I would say the most powerful thing about that is they are living stories right? So they didn't tell the story just so it could be a 1 ne-time discussion and something to walk away from it's living. So it's telling a story of how it happened how it's going to happen and what the future is of that story and and so that it can be added on to many times if you look at petroglys sights and I've seen you I've seen you standing next to pictures of these sheep and one sheep is. Clearly older than the others you can see that somebody added to that story. You know there were only this many sheet before but now we have had an abundance and there is now this many sheep and other places you see where they've been picked off the rock because they're not there anymore and. That's really painful and and sometimes that's not damage done by outsiders or you know people who are causing a mess sometimes it's by the natives themselves saying look this is what happened and and this is how it has affected us they are sacred drawings very much like. Um, the discussion. You had a month or so ago with the individuals from um Australia their sacred drawings. It's hard to call them. You know pictures or pick the graphs but but they are they are picked pick the graphs they are petrolyphs but those things are sacred drawings and. 14:19.00 alan Um. 14:28.13 alan And the stories and the stories are on on the land. Yeah right and they're on the land. The land itself is alive and so those stories some creation stories and other other episodes are there. 14:28.69 Johnny valdez And they're they're living. They're alive and they have a spirituality. Absolutely absolutely right. 14:47.64 alan And as you're saying that in part I I Guess um they I call it. What is it Personal memorials. There are sometimes you know commemorations of individuals that have passed. Kin and ancestors and his history am I correct. 15:11.27 Johnny valdez Absolutely right? You you you know it's such a history I Think about my daughter who's this great Artist. She's she's a great artist and when she draws something compared to somebody else. It's as if the. Campfire is dancing behind her as she's making the drawing she's in that place and she sees it in a good way and and that is what's powerful about these these drawings this artistry. 15:31.96 alan Oh Wow yeah. 15:41.63 alan But but Johnny we only have about a minute left. What? yeah, ah, in this particular episode. We only have about a minute left. What what would you like to tell our listeners. Um, that may um. Run across archaeological sites and artifacts or or see or want to see these native paintings or rock drawings. How would you want to communicate with them. What would you tell them. 16:13.49 Johnny valdez Um, ah. 16:16.19 Johnny valdez What I would say is to really enjoy them and see beyond what is just painted on there. Obviously you can take a picture but but blur your eyes a little bit look at what they were seeing take that photograph and and pretend that you're. Dancing under a beautiful full moon with the firelight around and your best friends there and someone's telling the story and remember that you're part of the story. Even though you're you may not be native. You're part of the story. You're part of humanity. You're part of history. You are alive as it is alive and as you honor it and look at it. It's honoring you back with this story. That's just uniquely yours natives are still here. We may have a completely different world view. 17:11.73 alan Fabulous! Yes, thank you? But yeah, you're still here. Well we're gonna we're gonna have you back for the next episode Johnny and we'll give you the the full hour but on this one we're going to call it quits. 17:14.26 Johnny valdez But but we are here. 17:29.40 alan At this point and pick it up on the next episode. Thank you gang and and at the the next segment we'll ah have a chance to reflect and collect and talk about some of the other things that I'm involved in that see you on the flip flop gang and and Johnny I. 17:45.60 Johnny valdez Um, thank you. It was a great honor. 17:47.57 alan Ah, really really? ah, really am honored to have you God bless. 17:50.61 Johnny valdez Absolutely.