00:01.28 Alan Welcome back to your rock art podcast episode 68 this is your host Dr Alan Garfinkel who is honored and blessed to have turtha muahaba day. Dr. Turtha who is with the guananawato university in the. Nation of Mexico and we're really talking about a journey a journey to understand the development and evolution of iconicity. The symbolism the the nature of the cosmology of the uto aztecan. People talk about a big problem and an interesting subject that we really had no idea that we were going to delve into I don't think this was something that we consciously had selected as our research topic was it tertha. 00:53.57 Tirtha Yes, I'm here. Yeah, a. 00:58.49 Alan Are you there? yeah yeah I don't I don't think I don't think we consciously selected the ah nature and evolution of the iconicity of Utah as teen as a specific topic for a book. 01:09.84 Tirtha No, ah we were ah what we actually seemed to discover and what we see what we seem to be saying here the hypotheses for our book which is coming out. 01:16.73 Alan Did we. 01:27.61 Tirtha Ah, from Burgan publishers is is titled iconicity and of course iconicity the word iconic it didn't exist before we we thought about iconicity which is like ah, a competence or it's a kind of ah. Ah, ah ability ah to express oneself culturally or um and that this repeats itself. The symbolism gets re-fied in time and different. Ah. Uttoah second populations through layers of prehistory have been able to hold onto that symbolism to anchor themselves to a system of beliefs around that icon of iconography. And that this iconography has evolved over centuries even Millennia and ah it has evolved into the great iconography of the ah high aztec cultures of ah the valley of Mexico ah precisely the culture. That the invading spaniards had confronted in the sixteenth century and and then there we have a different evolution. Ah trajectory. But then ah that was also a time when the the spaniards were able at least the the christian friars were able to record all that in in the codices in the which is a record of the of the iconography. Ah, the the symbolism in a very advanced and complex format. But what you Alan and I we were looking at the at the seminal at the see the but the birthing. Of that iconography in the hunter god gatherer cultures. Yes. 03:48.34 Alan Yes, the birth the birthplace the birth the Birth a birthplace of this symbolism and what is what is rather extraordinary is the the naturalism and the realism of this coso hearth This hundred Square miles. 04:07.30 Tirtha Directly. 04:07.82 Alan Of territory in the midst of a very dry desert less than three inches of rain area which is home to some very very important and and active volcanism. 04:18.61 Tirtha Gets the. 04:26.18 Alan Um, both ah geothermal etc and and it's sort of ah a birthplace that has many analogies to ah the ah high. You know the the the valley of Mexico. Thank you there is there is a remarkable set of parallels. 04:29.62 Tirtha Um, the value of Mexico. Yes, yes. 04:45.49 Alan Um, and what's interesting as well is there seems to be certain key elements or indexical animals or semiotic you know metaphors that appear to tether. 04:49.73 Tirtha You Yes, ah. 05:00.41 Tirtha Years I mean yes and that that geography all that that the blackque ah extent the of of ah volcanic. 05:02.77 Alan This enormous geographical spread and antiquity of literally thousands and thousands of years which um is rather extraordinary assuming that we're yeah if we have any validity and in in espousing this perspective. 05:20.39 Tirtha Ah, you know that land and and the the probability the the existence of snakes and it's It's very it's it's it's kind of strange to to. Ah. To to understand to to to believe that that it would be that it would be biologically so active and that humans were living in this region around the ah. 05:46.94 Alan Very very much. So. 05:55.13 Tirtha Around that valley around the the Mohave desert and that they were confronting snakes and that their evolution seems to be ah, wedded to seem to be bonded together with the evolution of snakes. And you know like there. There's a theory which says that humans have not ah become ah so much have been able to tame the grass but that grass itself you know the. 06:18.56 Alan Yes, yes. 06:31.60 Tirtha The grain the grass which feeds um has has domesticated humans. So I mean it's just fascinating. It's It's like an analogy because speaks seem to have shaped this culture and. And yeah. 06:51.37 Alan Right? right? What's what and I have had a very hard time wrapping my mind around the the understanding of the symbolism and metaphor and meaning of snakes I until fairly recently. 06:53.86 Tirtha Ha. 07:11.20 Alan Just didn't didn't understand really didn't get it because and I I had probed deeply and understood other animal symbols. But the snake was one as a metaphor which is so ingrained in sort of the Western industrial mind as something of you know, a sinful or. Negative nature or something to deal with it as a apex predator and and to see that wrapped up in a religious metaphor. Ah you know is kind of Counterintuitive. Is it not. 07:32.48 Tirtha Of course I mean this is like a culture a whole humanity ah in this region which is showing us that ah that symbol of death and Life. Snake is so intrictal to human existence and that it's It's right there and if and if the snake. Ah if you don't attack the snake and if you leave it alone What happens to you or if the snake is coming back at you. And it's it. It emerges as debt as then it opens up a portal to eternity and all these basic emotional instincts. Yes. 08:23.56 Alan Right? right? um. 08:25.91 Tirtha The the the the emotions the base human emotions. Yes, yeah, yes, yes yeah. 08:32.30 Alan Yeah, he's deeply held basic and emotions this Neuro theology as you put it the near neurophysiology of of people even for birth without ever seeing snakes. There is ah an ingrain instinctual basis. 08:45.12 Tirtha Yeah, yes, and an admiration I mean they are dancing with snakes they are they are worship. They worship the snakes and then they they draw the snake they they try to ah make an icon of the snake. 08:50.28 Alan Ah, fear and awe and some sort of ah repulsion to stakes. 09:04.54 Tirtha And and so that is what sustains their belief in a continuity of life in sustenance and preservation of species and you know the continuity of generations and integrity. All these values come together. In the value in the in the image of the snake right from the Hunter Gatherer phase of icon iconography. 09:31.65 Alan Right? So what? what? Iconicity so as I begin to probe and I said well how do you get the positive elements from this here snake what is it that. Is this associated with a snake and the ability to produce abundance and plants and rain and and life and I said this is really interesting. So as I began to probe and thanks to some individuals from Mexico by the way who have studied. This imagery and meaning they tell me first of all that when it rains the burrows of the snakes fill up with water and snakes come out so that would bring us snakes bring rain. Also they meander on the ground such as water and so it looks like there's a parallel in terms of the movement plus snakes have an odd way of losing their skin and also then continuing life and so it's a sort of a metaphor for. Resurrection or rebirth or renewal. Well, that's ah, that's a nice package of meanings all conceptualized by the habits and habitats of snakes. 10:50.60 Tirtha I mean the the metaphorical imagination if it existed it couldn't have couldn't have found a better expression than it does in the way, the Utostean culture has. Ah has created the iconography of the snake I mean the snakes appear in almost ah all mythologies around the world and they play a central part in so many religious narratives early early mythological narratives. And ah in in the huntergatherer of the forageger phase of the Utah s teans in the great basin. You get to see a very simple yet a very profound. Ah interaction with this symbolism and you see it on the rock surfaces. Yeah. 11:57.59 Alan Right? You get you get you get that but you get this intermingling certainly in Koso at a higher more sophisticated level where they're showing these animal human figures and I of course would argue that many of them if not most. 12:02.57 Tirtha You have. 12:08.80 Tirtha Yes, oh. 12:13.99 Tirtha Yes. 12:16.22 Alan Are female. They are adorned with feathers as you and I both know often with quail plumes and they appear to be intertwined with snakes or have a snake pattern within their bodies or snakes themselves appearing within their torsos. Um. Avian Legs Avian Feet Feathers I mean does this sound very familiar to some sort of a meso American symbolism. 12:36.16 Tirtha Yes, of course in in Meserica with the advancement of Us tech political organization and you know in archeology. Ah. Ah, civilization is defined as a more organized form of of a human collective or community where you have a power structure. You have a king you have subordinates you have common subjects and you know that the aztecs were. Highly politically organized and with political organization I guess with separation of powers and skill sets among groups of people in that system. Ah, in that organization art became more complex art became ah acquired. They acquired the ability to create highly complex. 3 dimensionional sculptural representations of the snake. And if you look at the post ah of the pre-classic. It starts really from the epic classic ah phase of a mesoamerican history around chippiquaro and the nawal cultures. The tremendous advancement in pottery design cermaics in in sculptures in 3 dimensional symbolism you you get to see representations of not just the snake but ah, the. You we find we come. We come across the consciousness of the water symbolism thunder rain so integral to their survival and the god of ah rain which is which islalock for the aztecs is is also sneak. And ah if you look at the head of cloock ah with the fangs. Ah, ah, it's it's like a zoomorphic hybrid anthropomorphic symbol which incorporates the significance of water. The significance of ah thunder and energy and it's a snake which is ah like standing on the frontiers of life and debt and the all inspiring symbolism of clolock. 15:22.23 Tirtha If you look at the images and some of the representations of C Clolock in the codices but the codedices would be um, ah more of a flat 2 dimensional ah give us they give us a twomensional view of the same themes. But if you look at the sculptures and if you look at there is this place is very near to where from where I'm talking to you in Guanawato Las Placeueelos you see this a simple ah thunder sculptures of thunder so could how could they I mean. 15:55.81 Alan H. 15:58.73 Tirtha Look at the innovation they sculpt Thunder with ah with rocks and that is a symbol of K cloock. It's very similar very similar to the coso ah zigzagging lines around their um animal busards. 16:02.75 Alan 3 16:18.32 Tirtha And that is is isn't that fascinating. 16:22.61 Alan And I guess also there is that there is ah yeah, and I think also I know that there's ah you know this overlay of archaeo astronomy or you know the relationship of. But we're talking about here vis-a-vis the snake and how it is embellished or perceived against the pyramids correct that the that there is some sort of a serpentine ah exposition at certain times of the year 16:54.48 Tirtha You You have referred directly to the classic tertu Wakan Ah the the phase of the highest mature maturity in the metaphoric iconic imagination where. 16:59.65 Alan That appears on the pyramids themselves am I correct. 17:13.39 Tirtha The Snake water symbolism is taken to its transcendent heights and where it gets related to um, an astronomicy, an astronomical vision. Yeah alignment I mean yes, so. It's it's Amazing. It's amazing. 17:36.37 Alan Alignment. Yeah. Yeah, and so this winter solstice or summer solstice. Whatever we're talking about either the sunrise or the sunset has a tremendous significance both for you know for the obviously for the Aztec State level civilization and. 17:40.67 Tirtha Yeah, yeah. 17:59.10 Alan And here's where it's repeated again in a rather exuberant and sophisticated style and with that we'll catch on the flip flop gang and stay around for segment number 3 18:09.71 archpodnet So.