00:00.00 Alan Welcome back. Everyone to episode 80 on your rock art podcast. This is Dr Allen Garfinkel with our illustrious guest scholar Don Lapony author and rock art researcher extraordinaire Don when we yeah. 00:03.90 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Yeah, hi. Um. 00:19.73 Alan Hit it on the other earlier segment you were just I think beginning sort of outline a bit of a case study or discuss some of the ways in which all of this is beginning to be understood from the scientific community. Please continue. 00:42.10 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Well, the botanicals I um I can think of 3 good examples of and there's they had ah the native american practice at least had about 400 plants that formed the framework of their what we call their medical practice. Also had separate from that beyond that what we would call like a spiritual practice or spiritual healing but many times that was the last resort and they would use plants ah to cure people ah along with other techniques like surgery and you know. Things like that. But um so three examples I can think of and what the physicians who came to see what they had heard about from europe were just stunned because while they didn't have these plants. But they could not figure out how did the native americans get so far ahead of them so far ahead of Europe that it had an industrial revolution the enlightenment um the renaissance and everything and yet here these supposed simpletons were doing stuff that they could. Not even imagine. Okay, so the native americans get criticized. There's one popular book by a physician named stone who blames them for being weak and not being resistant to their diseases. And that they couldn't come up with anything and that that is a common statement in the literature is that the native americans the shaman if they were so great then how come they couldn't come up with ah cures for these diseases. Well I found at least 2 diseases and I'm not finished looking yet. But. They came up with 2 plant um cures for 2 huge diseases but because they were locked up and non-reservations and then nobody had paid any attention to what they had discovered until recently the 2 diseases you've probably heard of them smallpox. And malaria ah it took the amazonians less than around 25 years to maybe 50 years to discover the bark of the chincchronna tree which produces quinine which is still used around the world in some areas where there's not resistance. Um, the other disease was smallpox and that was developed by a um what we call the mohawks but up in Nova Scotia um 3 while 2 surgeon generals from england saw her cure people. 03:30.65 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Eyewitness Testimony I sent you one of the articles alan it's being researched by University Of Arizona and Arizona State University They isolated the compounds and the compounds are active against a number of viruses. Um. 03:32.87 Alan E. 03:47.34 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Oh and and the other one is you know is more commonly heard of but is no less of um of a miracle is ayoska which is a combination of 2 plants one plant suppresses the enzyme that destroys the dmt product in the other plant and. How would they ever figure this out now remember although the the european american writers criticize the native americans for not finding cures to their disease. Well that's error number one they did but on the other hand what exactly did they do. They haven't solved these diseases until very recently like with the smallpox vaccine which they don't use anymore and today is very relevant because the one who has most of the smallpox samples in the world is Russia and have threatened to use it. And so this drug may become really relevant. It's from the purple pitcher plant but they'll probably start producing it synthetically because of the lack of vaccine. What if if that happens we'll have to treat people and we'll treat them with this drug so they're not. Um, they were a lot more innovative than we think and so there's to me. There's only 2 how did they get there. How did they get so far ahead of the best mines in Europe well either. They're much smarter than we are and. Having talked to a number of them I wouldn't doubt that in my case or they have another source of knowledge. What would the other source of knowledge. Be. 05:27.92 Alan Right? Another So another source of knowledge is the key and what is that other source of knowledge. 05:33.77 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Yeah, the other source of knowledge. Well you hear words like and you've heard these grandfather the creator god and this is where they're parallel to quantum science. and and quantum science has multiple realities that we call altered states of consciousness and the big um boon and interest in consciousness not just by David Chalmer's but a lot of other people. Wallace and um. There's another guy who wrote a big book. Lott Glot Felter there's ah chalmers thinks it'll take us a century to figure out consciousness but for your listeners 1 of the main differences I don't take quantum science to be like a blueprint. 06:14.80 Alan E. 06:31.15 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ For what the native americans are doing the native americans were doing this long before quantum science ever came along around 1900 but the parallels are really interesting and what was wrong with our old materialistic approach of just material physics like from Newton is that. Didn't explain much of the universe only about 5 to 10 percent of it is in the physical realm. So there. There were a lot of issues with newtonian physics and so there'll probably be another theory someday beyond quantum but right now that's the limit. Of how we understand things and quantum requires consciousness. So um, you know I think the native americans have been on to something. Um. 07:16.86 Alan So what do we? What? So what do So What do we do? But what do we mean by Quantum physics and why is that relevant to understanding Native American thought and shamanism. 07:28.63 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Glad you asked that one of the principles in quantum is called non-local knowledge or wisdom ah versus local wisdom and by that difference we mean like local. Healing. For example that the shaman do would be their plant based medicine. You put a plant on on a person's skin or they they swallow it or it's injected or it's used in some fashion and there's ah a medicine man right? there. Okay, so you have a cause and effect that's clearly discernible today's version would be you go to the doctor. The doctor gives you a prescription or surgery and you take that and you get better. That's local. Okay in Clifford Trapser's book which is the third book. Beyond lions and vogel. There's a huge quantum leap and the quality of the information about native americans being able to heal non-locally because you have a living patient still alive. You have a healer still alive. You have a physician that was watching the whole thing happen still alive and you have a medical record that documents everything that happens and ah so cliff travsler's book is American Indian Medicine ways from 2017 and Clifford Traer's part heron indian and he works at the University Of California Riverside where Daniel Mccarthy worked and they're also helping us with this kumiai archeology internship. Cliff Traser written a number of books that 1 is mostly on healers but he's written a number of other books pertaining to http://medicineandnativeamericans in Southern California so he's ah a good source. Um, anyway in his book. You have all these living principles that are doing. 09:33.10 Alan And so how do these non-local healers work. 09:41.13 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Miracles essentially medical miracles. 09:44.23 Alan Give us an example. 09:47.25 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Glad you asked. He opens he opens American Indian Medicine ways with a colleague coming into his office. She's in tears crying. 09:50.84 Alan Ah. 10:01.80 Alan Okay. 10:05.84 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ She can't even really spit out the words. She's so upset and what happened is she went for a routine physical and unfortunately she has stage four breast cancer so they want to do mastectomy chemo radiation and stage 4 the average lifespan or survival rate. I think is maybe a year and it might even be shorter than that. But with everything that modern western america medicine knows they can give you a year. Maybe so she knows that cliff trapser knows a bunch of healers and she. Since her case is hopeless despite all of those interventions she asks him. Will you talk to a native american healer for me, it just so happens that he has a long term friend. Um that he ah wrote a book just about him. Trying to think of the guy's name unfortunately well it look come to me? Oh Kenneth Kowin but he's in this book the twenty seventeen book so the next day. Um the author trapser is going to and. American Medical Association conference in Oklahoma city where they talk about a number of issues. Ah and 1 of them is native american healers and so this is the day that he meets clifford and his wife is also a shaman or medicine woman Rita Cosun and um he talks to some other healers but he decides to go with these 2 and so um, how did that go? Um, yeah outside of Oklahoma city in some kind of rural area but in that area which is cherokee. 11:47.62 Alan So they're in Oklahoma city and where is this doctor located. 11:56.74 Alan Okay. 11:58.24 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ And the cherokee that are there are the survivors and the descendants of the survivors of the trail of tears. So I mean there's just the emotion you know, running through the author's mind and and. Really through my mind about what these people have been through basically 500 years of holocaust and they are willing to help us. 12:21.80 Alan So what? Ah yeah, so what hit So what happens to the patient. 12:27.37 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Well so he goes he goes over to to Kenneth and and read his house and they have a prayer and he sings a song and um the Healer Kenneth kind of goes into a meditation within himself and he comes out and he says. We are going to get that cancer and kill it destroy it tell the woman that she will be okay and he says I will do a ceremony for her and she'll live three weeks later the woman comes back. 12:59.30 Alan Did did the did either shaman meet the woman or no. 13:08.81 Alan Did either shaman meet the woman. No okay, okay. 13:08.84 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ I'm sorry. No only talk to her maybe on the phone I think they talked on the phone but no, they never met so the woman goes in for her bilateral mastectomy and they do a pre-op. They know they did a cat scan or x-rays or something and took her blood just to make sure that she they know the tumor had not extended in that time and they couldn't find the tumor. They couldn't find any tumor even by blood work. Um. Cat scan can detect down to about a million cells so it doesn't mean you're cured but it should be an improvement over stage 4 but they could find no trace of tumor in her and there are other patients in in similar situations in this book and other books where taken as a whole. It just can't be coincidence or you know just happen stage four breast cancer to disappear from a human would be without intervention would would be almost impossible I can't imagine how it would happen and so. 14:20.10 Alan Did the cancer ever come back. 14:22.95 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Up so clifford traps or the the writer. The author is so excited that he has to call the healer up right away and tell him he called and. He's all excited and and the healer is going. Well what did you expect and you know that this person this one guy has had thousands of patients and so we had you and I had this idea. 14:41.69 Alan Ah. 14:51.10 Alan Ah. 14:56.62 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Wouldn't that be a good study to do and you know if we could do a study of a couple hundred patients retroactive chart reviews. They're done all the time to meet hospital requirements now would be a paper and I don't think anybody has done it yet. But um. 14:57.61 Alan Ah. 15:13.74 Alan Now with this patient that miraculously and instantaneously was healed from her breast cancer did the cancer ever come back. 15:16.26 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ So what. 15:22.63 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ No I think when the book was written. She was eight years out something like that eight or ten years out cancer free which is would also be unheard of you know she didn't get any treatment. So. 15:38.91 Alan Nothing okay, well I think we're gonna quit there on the second segment and this third segment I think we're gonna hear some more remarkable stories miraculous healings and I think we'll he even touch upon rock art. 15:41.69 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ The. 15:56.44 Don Liponi_ Ph_D_ Ah, no, not that. 15:56.65 Alan See and the Flip-flop gang.